Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Sonic XD]

Spring cancelling is actually one of sonic's good ablilities.

 

[Emblem Lord]

His smashes are slow. So is Bair.

Nothing else is really slow though.

 

[fkacyan]

Zamus is better than Luigi in my opinion, but eh, it remains to be seen where everybody will end up.

Heck, we're still only three months into the game.

 

[Sonic XD]

Snake is not a broken character. Why are many competitive smashers saying that snake is broken? You just have to get around his mines and keep your distance.

 

[Blistering Speed]

We need MOAR IC discussion. I personally believe they are top, its seems when people hear IC all the can think of is CG and while they do now have 0 - Death they also have alot of other stuff. A desynced IC player who knows what he is doing is unbelievable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think most of his b moves come out slow. Also, the lack of priority hurts him too.

his neutral B yes. Everything comes out pretty quickly.

His smashes are slow. So is Bair.

Nothing else is really slow though.

His Bair is pretty average, its roughly as fast as ROB's Bair I think.

Pity that unlike ROB's Bair it doesn't encompass his entire body >.<

 

[St. Viers]

ROB's b-air is slow...bad argument. We aren't talking compared to other chars moves, but rather in relation to how easy it is to see/avoid

 

[ShadowLink84]

I thought I had made it clear that i was relating speed in comparison to characters.

Doh that was a different post. Soz.

 

[SaxDude93]

By "Slow", I think it was more of a priority speed thing than anything else.

 

[Deleted member]

Sonic has VERY predictable kill moves, and low priority, together making him not too good. Ive played many good sonics, and i know what he can do, but he really isnt very good. He has a rediculously hard time killing most characters who he cant gimp. HEs fast and once he lands one of his spindashes he can rack up damage, but i dont see how he is better than jiggs, who has much better priority, kill power, a better air game, and has 5 extra jumps and huge air control. I dont know where people get that jiggs is bottom tier, her air game is different that squirles and warios because she has 5 EXTRA JUMPS.

 

[Fearmy]

Pokemon Trainer Low Tier? The stamina is a problem for first time players, but when you start to play strageticlley, it doesn't even matter. People will tend to start with squirtle, when he gets to about 60% they switch, when ivysaur gets to around 100%, they switch and have charizard for the rest of the time. the switch is easy to pull out if the PT player chain grabs, seeing how PT has Bullet seed (maybe one of the most broken moves in the game), flame thrower, and perhaps maybe the most Super armor stages in the game, should atleast make him Middle tier. PT has about a favorable matchup against every character except, MK, Mario, and Zamus. Even though Ivysaur gets ripped apart by Fire based attacks, squirtle actually doesn't get knocked back as much to fire attacks. PT is definetley not Low Tier

 

[Sudsy86_]

This is one of the worst I've seen so far. .

Maybe so. Actually, after thinking about it, I would probably change 4-6 positions.

Ness and Pika were buffed a lot, but they'll probably be mid tier, maybe high..

They weren't really buffed too much; the less gravitational force ( something which affects all characters) is what probably did it for me. Out of curiosity, what weakness do you think Ness and Pikachu really have? I know you immediately think of how easy it is to gimp Ness on a return, but that only happens with above-average-to-good players, from my experience. Being an avid Ness user, I've realized that all you need to do is fall a little further down and hit yourself at a greater slope--which also increases your chances of hitting them if they attempt to absorb your thunder. Also, Ness's moves are SUPER quick, except, maybe, his bat--which is probably faster than most f-smashes. He can decrease his own damage. That itself gives him the advantage over all long-range opponets ( Pikachu, Samus, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Bowser[especially], and sometimes Mario). I haven't found a flaw in Pikachu's game--and the biggest difference from my memory is how seldom he's vulnerable to attacks, other than Thunder--which is far different from someone like Snake.

G&W and Diddy are...eh, I guess they're OK where they are, but Mario is definitely mid-low, and Sheik sucks now..

I simply find G&W's offense to be almost impeccable, while Diddy is one of the three hardest to beat ( from my experience) in the hands of smart, aggresive controllers. I can't see how anyone can say Shiek sucks. The floatiness of the game might hurt her more than others, but aggresive players always seem to kick everyone's rear with her. If you get caught in her basic a attack for even two seconds, you've received over 23 damage each time. Besides, how can any hyper-quick character ever suck in a fighting game, regardless of lack of power--which I don't think she has, though Diddy has more.

Kirby should definitely be lower. Putting Snake below the above characters, ESPECIALLY ones like Sheik and Mario...is this a joke? Anyway, Ike above Lucas and Pit, is lolz.

Perhaps Kirby should be lower, considering he has a ton of horrible matchups across the board. I'll give you that one. Snake is very good, but if he uses a lot of long-range/ projectile attacks or mines, he will get tragically ***** by good Pika, Ness, Shiek, Diddy, Falco, Fox, Falcon, Peach, and MK users. Plus, his return has "shine spike" written all over it. Once he's off the stage he's screwed by his supposedly inferior, quicker opponets. Other than his basic attacks, every single one of his moves is not in any way pragmatical. I've only seen two dominating Snake users--one, of course, being KDJ--while the other ( his brawl name is Herby) I've finally manage to overcome through the severe difference in Diddy, Ness, and Peach's metagame over Snake's.

Peach and Marth in middle? Moar liek low/bottom and high respectively. Olimar is probably higher, as is Dedede

Personally, I think Marth is pretty horrible when not c-sticking, but it's allowed, so marth can use his sword attacks very cheaply and win easily against many opponets. Peach's return is dreadful, but I've never found it easier to string together so many consecutive hits than i can with Brawl's Peach. Peach is pragmatic combo city, if you haven't played with her much ( she's one of my mains). Olimar should probably be higher, while Dedede was screwed on my list. I have no basis for placing Olimar that low; I'm like 3-5 against good ones. As amazing as Dedede is, he's still abnormally large and easy to connect with when facing characters with long reach.

This HAS to be a joke. The space animals, Zelda, and IC's THAT low? I hope to God you're kidding. Also, Falcon is the worst character in the game, kthx.

I apologize for placing the Space animals that low; I just ALWAYS make sure I use Ness against them, placing them at huge disadvantages on many levels, resulting in many two-three stock wins against the better players on my friend list. Falco is fair, I guess, but I find his reaction time to be conveniently slow for me to play against. I love Fox's style, he's just not strong enough. Wolf's moveset is just horrible, to me. As powerful as Zelda is, she's a fricking statue. Get her in the air and it's an automatic two-three move combo almost everytime.

Falcon is the worst character in the game? There's no way you're an agressive player. Falcon's reach in the air does take precise timing, but he can jump more quickly than most characters after touching the ground, literally forcing most types of characters to play very defensively. Plus, have you ever fought off the stage with Falcon? Other than with Ness, Shiek, and maybe Diddy, he will win everytime!

Wario and Toon Link at the second lowest spot? Definitely a joke. They're both really, really good. Definitely high mid-high.

Link and DK are bad, but not that bad.

I feel bad for the Links; their attacks are so easy to avoid. I believe all their air attacks do them no justice at all, and their b-moves are junk. The only effective move they have is their f-smash. The metagame with them is possibly THEE worst in the game.

Wario is, in fact, quite good; it just so happens others have stronger pragmatic potential, if that even makes sense. ( might have worded that improperly)

Tell me who is possibly worse than DK in Brawl? They game mechanics( and probably some nerfing) totally took away what speed and quickness he had. When you're big and not quick or agile, you will take serious damage. Perhaps I just haven't tried hard enough with him, or, perhaps, his moves take divine precision and fortune to actually land. Even Falcon doesn't require as much luck and precision to at least land his attacks: his moves can land for quite a while, if you haven't noticed.

Not bad criticism, I just don't agree with it at all.

If I can find some time soon I will remake my tiers, if you still care for opinion at all.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Snowstalker, thats the most (if not, one of the most) accurate/reasonable tier lists that i've seen so far. Good job. I'm not so sure about Samus though, she seems a bit the same. But whatevers.

And, a VERY important part... you didn't put Yoshi in the bottom tier, like how almost everyone does

 

[Blistering Speed]

Sudsy86, you have great grammar and construct an argument well however I fear you are either very misinformed or ignorant. Neither should be taken as an insult, but please look around this discussion and the Smashboards in general before making a tier list as it seems you are judging by a very secluded personal experience, which has resulted in your flawed tier list.

 

[Emperor Time]

Maybe so. Actually, after thinking about it, I would probably change 4-6 positions.

They weren't really buffed too much; the less gravitational force ( something which affects all characters) is what probably did it for me. Out of curiosity, what weakness do you think Ness and Pikachu really have? I know you immediately think of how easy it is to gimp Ness on a return, but that only happens with above-average-to-good players, from my experience. Being an avid Ness user, I've realized that all you need to do is fall a little further down and hit yourself at a greater slope--which also increases your chances of hitting them if they attempt to absorb your thunder. Also, Ness's moves are SUPER quick, except, maybe, his bat--which is probably faster than most f-smashes. He can decrease his own damage. That itself gives him the advantage over all long-range opponets ( Pikachu, Samus, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Bowser[especially], and sometimes Mario). I haven't found a flaw in Pikachu's game--and the biggest difference from my memory is how seldom he's vulnerable to attacks, other than Thunder--which is far different from someone like Snake.

I simply find G&W's offense to be almost impeccable, while Diddy is one of the three hardest to beat ( from my experience) in the hands of smart, aggresive controllers. I can't see how anyone can say Shiek sucks. The floatiness of the game might hurt her more than others, but aggresive players always seem to kick everyone's rear with her. If you get caught in her basic a attack for even two seconds, you've received over 23 damage each time. Besides, how can any hyper-quick character ever suck in a fighting game, regardless of lack of power--which I don't think she has, though Diddy has more.

Perhaps Kirby should be lower, considering he has a ton of horrible matchups across the board. I'll give you that one. Snake is very good, but if he uses a lot of long-range/ projectile attacks or mines, he will get tragically ***** by good Pika, Ness, Shiek, Diddy, Falco, Fox, Falcon, Peach, and MK users. Plus, his return has "shine spike" written all over it. Once he's off the stage he's screwed by his supposedly inferior, quicker opponets. Other than his basic attacks, every single one of his moves is not in any way pragmatical. I've only seen two dominating Snake users--one, of course, being KDJ--while the other ( his brawl name is Herby) I've finally manage to overcome through the severe difference in Diddy, Ness, and Peach's metagame over Snake's.

Personally, I think Marth is pretty horrible when not c-sticking, but it's allowed, so marth can use his sword attacks very cheaply and win easily against many opponets. Peach's return is dreadful, but I've never found it easier to string together so many consecutive hits than i can with Brawl's Peach. Peach is pragmatic combo city, if you haven't played with her much ( she's one of my mains). Olimar should probably be higher, while Dedede was screwed on my list. I have no basis for placing Olimar that low; I'm like 3-5 against good ones. As amazing as Dedede is, he's still abnormally large and easy to connect with when facing characters with long reach.


I apologize for placing the Space animals that low; I just ALWAYS make sure I use Ness against them, placing them at huge disadvantages on many levels, resulting in many two-three stock wins against the better players on my friend list. Falco is fair, I guess, but I find his reaction time to be conveniently slow for me to play against. I love Fox's style, he's just not strong enough. Wolf's moveset is just horrible, to me. As powerful as Zelda is, she's a fricking statue. Get her in the air and it's an automatic two-three move combo almost everytime.

Falcon is the worst character in the game? There's no way you're an agressive player. Falcon's reach in the air does take precise timing, but he can jump more quickly than most characters after touching the ground, literally forcing most types of characters to play very defensively. Plus, have you ever fought off the stage with Falcon? Other than with Ness, Shiek, and maybe Diddy, he will win everytime!



I feel bad for the Links; their attacks are so easy to avoid. I believe all their air attacks do them no justice at all, and their b-moves are junk. The only effective move they have is their f-smash. The metagame with them is possibly THEE worst in the game.

Wario is, in fact, quite good; it just so happens others have stronger pragmatic potential, if that even makes sense. ( might have worded that improperly)

Tell me who is possibly worse than DK in Brawl? They game mechanics( and probably some nerfing) totally took away what speed and quickness he had. When you're big and not quick or agile, you will take serious damage. Perhaps I just haven't tried hard enough with him, or, perhaps, his moves take divine precision and fortune to actually land. Even Falcon doesn't require as much luck and precision to at least land his attacks: his moves can land for quite a while, if you haven't noticed.

Not bad criticism, I just don't agree with it at all.

If I can find some time soon I will remake my tiers, if you still care for opinion at all.

Wait a sec. you based the spacies placing by using your Ness? O Lord no. Also, you msut realize that a tier list is not just based on your personal experiences.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

djbrowny, im quite sure Math's fsmash is about or longer than Ike's. Kirby's is quite long too. And DDD's is very long, although it has a sweetspot which is not at the longest point of the attack.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

The official list should look like:

Wario tier: Wario

Not Wario tier: Warioman

 

[Blistering Speed]

Double post, sorry

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sudsy: WTF?

Also to the guy that said PT has good match-ups overall. No..he really doesn't.

 

[Sudsy86_]

I fear you are either very misinformed or ignorant. Neither should be taken as an insult, but please look around this discussion and the Smashboards in general before making a tier list as it seems you are judging by a very secluded personal experience, which has resulted in your flawed tier list.

Perhaps I'm ignorant--I won't count it out--I will just say that, yes, personal experience was a HUGE factor, but that a significant factor was based on watching good players with characters. I also tried to perform some thought experiments: If I were to perform x against y on this stage, what would likely be the result, from what I already know? And why? Is there anything x can do to get around it? How likely is it with my current skill? What part of my skillset, if anything, needs work to be able to do it? If I can't honestly conclude anything, I'll simply discredit the character's matchup. If the character has problems against numerous characters, I'll discredit the character. Things like this, I guess.

But, of course, personal experience is the biggest factor. And why shouldn't it be? It seems absurd to choose another factor over experience,something you have witnessed with your own eyes.

Hey, maybe my actual experience is the problem, as you say. Maybe I haven't faced valid opposition or maybe I haven't given enough time with some characters. Hey, it seems possible; I just don't think so.

Out of curiosity, what are you basing your opinions off? If you don't say personal experience and understanding of the game, I'll get upset that you would be content with backing up a belief primarily with " because the majority disagrees/ agrees with it".

Hey, maybe I know less than the majority; maybe I know more relevant information than the majority? I won't say until I've played good players outside of wi-fi. But until that point, I have enough reason to think my views are at least as valid as others.

Not arguing for anything, just my way of pointing things out.

 

[Exia 00]

in the begining i thought lucas was going to up there but
i geuss its cause i used to main him XD

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude, when you play..do you just spam smash attacks or something?

The Links have bad b-moves?

What?

CF is more effective then DK.

What?

My head hurts.

 

[zamz]

Perhaps I'm ignorant--I won't count it out--I will just say that, yes, personal experience was a HUGE factor, but that a significant factor was based on watching good players with characters. I also tried to perform some thought experiments: If I were to perform x against y on this stage, what would likely be the result, from what I already know? And why? Is there anything x can do to get around it? How likely is it with my current skill? What part of my skillset, if anything, needs work to be able to do it? If I can't honestly conclude anything, I'll simply discredit the character's matchup. If the character has problems against numerous characters, I'll discredit the character. Things like this, I guess.

But, of course, personal experience is the biggest factor. And why shouldn't it be? It seems absurd to choose another factor over experience,something you have witnessed with your own eyes.

Hey, maybe my actual experience is the problem, as you say. Maybe I haven't faced valid opposition or maybe I haven't given enough time with some characters. Hey, it seems possible; I just don't think so.

Out of curiosity, what are you basing your opinions off? If you don't say personal experience and understanding of the game, I'll get upset that you would be content with backing up a belief primarily with " because the majority disagrees/ agrees with it".

Hey, maybe I know less than the majority; maybe I know more relevant information than the majority? I won't say until I've played good players outside of wi-fi. But until that point, I have enough reason to think my views are at least as valid as others.

Not arguing for anything, just my way of pointing things out.

1) Ness will have good matchups and bad matchups. Just because Ness is great at facing a specific character, does not mean that character is terrible. Likewise, if Ness has trouble with a character, that doesn't make it top tier. This just means Ness has strengths and weaknesses. Trying to create any reliable system of ranking based off one character's matchups will not work. In fact, all you'll get is a list of characters that work well/don't work well against Ness. That's not a tier list...

2) A tier list is typically based off tournement results. Not necessarily tournement wins, but an analysis of high-ranked play. Unless you're playing at the very top of the skillpool, personal experience will not help you. The idea is to think theoretically, and suggest the potential of each character at it's best level. If a skilled yoshi and a skilled ness fought, who would win? Not: "If I played my friend who plays an okay yoshi, will I beat him?" That would produce a completely different kind of list.

3) The idea is not to create an opinion. A tier list isn't a top 35 favorite characters list. The goal is to combine many, many, many people's experiences togeather in order to create a working representation of potential skill. If you ignore the entire community and consider only yourself right while everyone else is wrong...you're not accomplishing anything worth looking at.

 

[Fearmy]

Sudsy: WTF?

Also to the guy that said PT has good match-ups overall. No..he really doesn't.

what i meant is that at least 1 pkmn has an advantage besides those 3 i mentioned

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156038

 

[Sudsy86_]

Dude, when you play..do you just spam smash attacks or something?

I rarely ever use smash attacks. Just with Diddy, Shiek, Peach, Mario, and Bowser do I use them at all.

The Links have bad b-moves?

Arrows-- easy to see coming and dodge. Boomerang--Very formidable move. Easy to dodge when not spaced closely. Sword twirl-- effective if opponet isn't cautious ( you can spam all day with it), but if you miss, you're doing to take some serious damage. Bombs--formidable, though not nearly as much as the boomerang. It doesn't travel quickly, so patience alone will be enough to avoid it.

Seriously, how often do you connect with those moves, if ever? I never lose to Link, so I won't talk about him. T.Link's only effective strategy is f-smash, f-smash...and maybe moves which are usually easily avoided.

CF is more effective then DK.

What?

"Even Falcon doesn't require as much luck and precision to at least land his attacks: his moves can land for quite a while, if you haven't noticed. " All of Falcon's airials are quick and last longer than most other airials. I don't see how this is worse than a reasonable opinion.

My head hurts.

Go lie down, then.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth has advantage on all the pokemon. I'm pretty sure there are others as well that you didn't mention.

PT isn't that hot. And I disagree with that thread's chart.

Sudsy: I hate the fact that you seem very intelligent, but you seem to have no real knowledge. I won't debate you since it seems like you don't know much. Hopefully in the coming months you will learn more about Brawl on a high level so that you understand how mis-informed you are right now.

 

[Jibbles]

T.Link's only effective strategy is f-smash, f-smash...and maybe moves which are usually easily avoided.

...I'm not even gonna comment on that

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well, didn't you fix basicially all of Marths matchups yourself O_o.


The chart's okay, but it shouldn't be relied on too much and only as a point of reference. If enough time goes by, like maybe a year or two, then maybe we can start calling it accurate.



And BTW, using personal experiance heavily in factoring a Tier list=BAD.

 

[Emblem Lord]

NSS: He linked to a different thread with a chart for the pokemon match-ups, not the Brawl Match-up chart.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Oh >_______>

 

[St. Viers]

"They weren't really buffed too much[1]; the less gravitational force ( something which affects all characters) is what probably did it for me. Out of curiosity, what weakness do you think Ness and Pikachu really have?[2] I know you immediately think of how easy it is to gimp Ness on a return, but that only happens with above-average-to-good players, from my experience. Being an avid Ness user, I've realized that all you need to do is fall a little further down and hit yourself at a greater slope--which also increases your chances of hitting them if they attempt to absorb your thunder. Also, Ness's moves are SUPER quick, except, maybe, his bat--which is probably faster than most f-smashes.[3] He can decrease his own damage. That itself gives him the advantage over all long-range opponets ( Pikachu, Samus, Pit, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Bowser[especially], and sometimes Mario). I haven't found a flaw in Pikachu's game--and the biggest difference from my memory is how seldom he's vulnerable to attacks, other than Thunder--which is far different from someone like Snake."

[1]No they have been buffed. Pika's aerials are much more useful, especially f-air/b-air(up-air and d-air stayed roughly the same). Ness' yo-yo doesn't suck in terms of knock-back now, even though the yo-yo glich isn't arounf anymore (yet...). So yes, this is a case where your knowledge gets in the way of you (apparent) intelligence.

[2]Pika has a short range, and is relatively light. Ness is really floaty, with a not so good recovery. His smashes aren't too useful, and his f-smash is slow. Some people have slower ones, but all it is useful for is punishing sloppy playing by your opponent.

[3]The only extremely quick moves he has are d-tilt, and f-air

"I simply find G&W's offense to be almost impeccable, while Diddy is one of the three hardest to beat ( from my experience) in the hands of smart, aggresive controllers.[1] I can't see how anyone can say Shiek sucks[2]. The floatiness of the game might hurt her more than others, but aggresive players always seem to kick everyone's rear with her. If you get caught in her basic a attack for even two seconds, you've received over 23 damage each time. Besides, how can any hyper-quick character ever suck in a fighting game, regardless of lack of power--which I don't think she has, though Diddy has more."

Okay, so
[1] Diddy, although good, is by no means great. he has trouble getting kills, and his projectiles are a double edged weapon, as the peanuts/bananas can be caught/returned. His recovery has to be charged, meaning that it isn;t as useful as some, and can get gimped. He doesn't have much range. Of course, he still has a ton of good points (far more than bad), but he is by no means the best char...

[2] Sheik isn't good for a number of reasons:
1. Her aerials got massively nerfed, to the point that she can't really use them to kill.
2. She's fast, but her ground game is very straightforward. She also has trouble killing on the ground because the up-smash hasn't mediocre range, the f-smash can be teched/DIed out of the second hit, and her d-smash got nerfed.
3. Her range was nerfed, and her ability to chain hits was decreased due to having almost no hitstun, as well as better DI in brawl.

4. No one should get trapped in her jab combo, unless they are trapped against a wall.

I agree that she isn't as bad as people assume, but she isn't good.

"Perhaps Kirby should be lower, considering he has a ton of horrible matchups across the board. I'll give you that one. Snake is very good, but if he uses a lot of long-range/ projectile attacks or mines, he will get tragically ***** by good Pika, Ness, Shiek, Diddy, Falco, Fox, Falcon, Peach, and MK users. Plus, his return has "shine spike" written all over it. Once he's off the stage he's screwed by his supposedly inferior, quicker opponets. Other than his basic attacks, every single one of his moves is not in any way pragmatical. I've only seen two dominating Snake users--one, of course, being KDJ--while the other ( his brawl name is Herby) I've finally manage to overcome through the severe difference in Diddy, Ness, and Peach's metagame over Snake's."

kirby is decent, but as you rightly corrected yourself, he isn't really good.

Snake is right now almost unbeatable. He lives forever, has almost broken tilts, excellent pressure/control game, almost infinate recovery by means of C4, and hard to gimp unless you force him to cypher below the stage. Snake is currently leading in tounrie wins, and there are many very good snake players besides the 2 you mentioned.

Pretty much, this statement is completely wrong, and based solely of your limited experience >_>

"Personally, I think Marth is pretty horrible when not c-sticking, but it's allowed, so marth can use his sword attacks very cheaply and win easily against many opponets. Peach's return is dreadful, but I've never found it easier to string together so many consecutive hits than i can with Brawl's Peach. Peach is pragmatic combo city, if you haven't played with her much ( she's one of my mains). Olimar should probably be higher, while Dedede was screwed on my list. I have no basis for placing Olimar that low; I'm like 3-5 against good ones. As amazing as Dedede is, he's still abnormally large and easy to connect with when facing characters with long reach."

Marth is excellent. He has range, power and speed. The fact that you *****about the c-stick only further invalidates your arguements, as any even sucky smash player can smash without using the c-stick...>_< please think before bringing up something trivial like that >_<

Peach has none of these. She's light, relatively weak, and her 2nd jump is horrible. Her smashes do almost nothing, her turnips got nerfed, and her aerials, although some got better (f-air), aren't enough to make up for her weaknesses. Her ability to combo comes probably from the skills of the people you are playing against.

Pretty much no one outranges DDD, due to his amazing "projectile," and his jabs/tilts. Again, you aren't basing your opinion on much ...

"I apologize for placing the Space animals that low; I just ALWAYS make sure I use Ness against them, placing them at huge disadvantages on many levels, resulting in many two-three stock wins against the better players on my friend list. Falco is fair, I guess, but I find his reaction time to be conveniently slow for me to play against. I love Fox's style, he's just not strong enough. Wolf's moveset is just horrible, to me. As powerful as Zelda is, she's a fricking statue. Get her in the air and it's an automatic two-three move combo almost everytime.

Falcon is the worst character in the game? There's no way you're an agressive player. Falcon's reach in the air does take precise timing, but he can jump more quickly than most characters after touching the ground, literally forcing most types of characters to play very defensively. Plus, have you ever fought off the stage with Falcon? Other than with Ness, Shiek, and maybe Diddy, he will win everytime!"

Even with the psi magnet, space animals eat ness. He's too slow, with not enough range. Fox can walk all over him, as can wolf, because of wolf's aerial game. Falco may be harder, as his projectile is more important, but NEss has too much going against him....another example of your experience making your opinion wrong.

Falcon is bad because although he's fast, his ground game is horrible, and his air game is decent at best. Off stage, most characters out match him:

G&W, kirby, MK, wolf, pit, kirby, jiggz, peach, marth, ike, pit....pretty much everyone. His only good moves are his up-air, b-air, and d-air. His n-air is no longer useful, and his f-air is garbage now, as the time it takes for the knee to sweetspot is far too long... go to a tournie and see how your falcon does ^_^

"I feel bad for the Links; their attacks are so easy to avoid. I believe all their air attacks do them no justice at all, and their b-moves are junk. The only effective move they have is their f-smash. The metagame with them is possibly THEE worst in the game.

Tell me who is possibly worse than DK in Brawl? They game mechanics( and probably some nerfing) totally took away what speed and quickness he had. When you're big and not quick or agile, you will take serious damage. Perhaps I just haven't tried hard enough with him, or, perhaps, his moves take divine precision and fortune to actually land. Even Falcon doesn't require as much luck and precision to at least land his attacks: his moves can land for quite a while, if you haven't noticed."

Um, you are saying TL isn't good. He's fast (which you seem to think =good) with projectiles, a disjointed hitbox, amazing aerials, and a decent recovery. I can't take that seriously.

re: DK. He has tremendous range and power, an excellent aerial game, good throws (th most versitile grab), and super armor on his already good side B. His recovery actually has some veritcal lift, unlike before, and he's heavy, meaning he lasts a long time. Have you ever tried using any of DK's moves in the air (besides his f-air) I don't think you could have, as his b-air is insane for spacing and approaching, and his u-air juggles people above him, whiel being quick enough to punsih the opponent if they air dodge.

I hope you take the time to read this...and think about it You seem intelligent, but you are horribly misinformed, because of the level you play at/ the size of the community you play in.

 

[hizzlum]

There has been some debate about what the tier below snake and MK (People in this group are Falco, G&W, ROB, Marth that most agree on as the second tier) should be called because the are not the top that is occupied by Snake and MK but are not bad enough to be in the high tier where olimar, Tlink, DDD and others are, I'm thinking a very high tier should be made for the group, while the high and middle tier have less of a division between them. Someone please help anwser.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake and MK are god tier.

Then G&W, Falco, Marth and a few others are top tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Just to correct something.
Pika's Uair suffered some seeing as it can no longer spike (or was it semispike) anymore.

 

[Lenus Altair]

PT has about a favorable matchup against every character except, MK, Mario, and Zamus.

what i meant is that at least 1 pkmn has an advantage besides those 3 i mentioned

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156038

I can't speak for for many characters, but I can confidently add Pit to the list of characters that PT does not have a clear advantage of. I disagree with the chart you listed and while the one I prefer floating near the top of the tatical boards here has some debatle points for sure, I feel pits matchs-ups are fairly decent.

Refrence:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979

At best Squirtle and Ivysaur might have a nuetral matchup with Pit while Charizard still lags behind, but I still feels he has an advatage against all of them with his superior projectile, air game, and melee advantage with a disjopinted hitbox against Squirtle and Charizard. Pit is also really good at gimping Ivysaur.

What does squitle have the gives him an advantage against Pit in the chart you listed?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Snake and MK are god tier.

Then G&W, Falco, Marth and a few others are top tier.

Agreed, in that order, with ROB and Tink straight after

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'm been wondering, Would Marth be above Falco? Or the other way around?

 

[Emblem Lord]

The top tier are all so close in ability I really don't think order matters that much.

 

[hizzlum]

Snake and MK are god tier.

Then G&W, Falco, Marth and a few others are top tier.

So you think that there will be a new branch of tiers added to brawl, the new one being god tier? a higher division of the top tier?
Makes perfect sense to me beacuse brawl has added about a dozen characters into the game.

Question:Has G&W been winning tournies and shouldn't ROB be up with the "top tier" that you said?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I wonder if the SBR is going to implement 5 Tiers or 6. That's the question I've been wondering lately.


For Brawl's bigger roster, 6 would make more sense.