Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[worldjem7]

Fine. Just don't start crying when you go to F-smash with Marth, miss, and get D-smashed by Meta Knight.

 

[Emblem Lord]

-_-

Marth leans in with his f-smash, so of course MK can hit him. Also that means little since anyone can punish Marth's missed f-smash. It means you punished him, not that you outrange him.

 

[Zankoku]

Fine. Just don't start crying when you go to F-smash with Marth, miss, and get D-smashed by Meta Knight.

Don't start crying when you dsmash with Meta Knight, miss, and end up being in perfect tipper range for Marth's fsmash.

 

[worldjem7]

His F-smash is a move and it makes him lean in. So when you say Move A vs Move B you can't make up excuses like "oh he leans in so that doesn't count". It's part of the move so it's part of the character and using that move will put you in that situation.

Standing side-by-side, Marth and Meta, Marth can do his F-smash and not hit Meta while Meta can stand the same distance away and hit Marth.

If this isn't what out-ranging someone is then I don't know what is.

 

[St. Viers]

seriously people, EL isn't wrong. If you choose to simply point out the strengths in a certain matchup vs. marth, you have NO RIGHT to expect anyone else to be different: he's simply stating what advantages marth has in the matchup.

But as seeing as Marth has all the advantages as MK, except a bit of speed and aerial power, why do you think it's going to be harder for him than MK.

 

[Emblem Lord]

worldjem7: No. Wrong. MK could only hit Marth if he screwed up his spacing. At max tipper disatance of Marth's f-smash, only Marth's attack would connect.

This debate is over.

 

[YagamiLight]

worldjem7: No. Wrong. MK could only hit Marth if he screwed up his spacing. At max tipper disatance of Marth's f-smash, only Marth's attack would connect.

This debate is over.

There pretty much was no debate, MK only punishes Marth, he does not outrange him at all.

 

[worldjem7]

seriously people, EL isn't wrong. If you choose to simply point out the strengths in a certain matchup vs. marth, you have NO RIGHT to expect anyone else to be different: he's simply stating what advantages marth has in the matchup.

But as seeing as Marth has all the advantages as MK, except a bit of speed and aerial power, why do you think it's going to be harder for him than MK.

Because Marth DOESN'T have all the advantages as MK.

Most of MK's moves are insanely fast such as his D-smash, which can be spammed easily, and his aerials are multi-hit moves or can be done multiple times in the air AND have high priority. Marth has 1 multi-hit move and that's his Nair but, it's awkward, slower than MK's, and not as useful a move to be used by Marth. And the most priority Marth has is in the tip of his sword for every move which needs to be spaced properly. MK doesn't need spacing because his entire sword has high priority.

Marth doesn't have the advantage of multiple jumps, 4 specials for recovery, major priority throughout his entire sword for every single move he does and speed in attacks and movement.

I'll give Marth his Side-B combo that can be spammed and does a nice amount of damage but, it can't be used to break through projectiles like MK's neutral B can.

MK is just much better than Marth at everything which is why there's such a huge gap where projectile spam can be effective against one over the other.


Edit: OK Fine. So Marth out-ranges MK. That's 1 property out of about 4 main ones that doesn't really matter because of MK's speed and priority. It at least seems like MK out-ranges Marth because of this.

 

[Zankoku]

You make a lot of points based on "it feels like" and "in my experience." Therefore, I see no further reason to even address your posts seeing as how experience and personal feelings trump statistics and logic by far.

 

[St. Viers]

dude, marth rewards you for playing smart (having the power be at the tip), that isn't a disadvantage. Also, all the things you said that MK has that marth doesn't falls into aerial power.

Priority isn't a magic attribute, it's a combination of speed and range. If an attack can reach the opponent, and comes out before the opponents can, that is priority. Marth's range and attack speed gives him excellent priority. So, you're wrong. There is no "most priority at," except that the closer you are, the more likely it is that your opponent has a quick move that can reach you. But that isn't char specific.

Pretty much, you are saying that if marth can't space he'll lose. Unfortunately, as brawl is relatively slow, and most approaching is straight-forward, and marth is relatively fast, spacing is what brawl (and marth) is all about.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spacing with SH's with Marth is stupid easy since his DI is so good.

Also the ONLY reasons MK is above Marth is because his pressure is a bit better, he is a slightly better punisher, and his edgeguarding is better. That's it. This is what puts him above Marth.

And it's not like MK is WAAAAAY better. He is a little bit better.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Don't argue with Emblem Lord, you'll lose and look like a fool.

 

[Fogo]

spacing is what brawl is all about.

The most viable quote i've seen all day.

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Marth has been nerfed. His Chain throws are nonexistent, his range has been decreased, his recovery is nowhere near as good as it used to be. Marth can chain fairs, he has >B, and forward smash (which comes out unbearably slow now, lol @ getting hit by that). That's pretty much it.

All the spacies can compete with Marth

 

[Emblem Lord]

You know nothing.

Marth's f-smash is 10 frames the same as before. I'm pretty sure of that. 10 frames isn't slow. Generally I would say anything more then 13 frames is slow.

Marth can't chain fairs.

His recovery is better actually.

Only Falco competes with Marth honestly. Wolf isn't as good and Fox isn't in the same league at all.

Stop talking about Marth you nublet.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Marth has been nerfed. His Chain throws are nonexistent, his range has been decreased, his recovery is nowhere near as good as it used to be. Marth can chain fairs, he has >B, and forward smash (which comes out unbearably slow now, lol @ getting hit by that). That's pretty much it.

All the spacies can compete with Marth

*Facepalm*


I would tear you asunder myself, but I'm sure Emblem Lord would do a better and nastier job than I would.


Edit: Oh snap he beat me......See what I mean?

 

[Fogo]

Hey EL where exactly do you want marth to be on the tier list?

 

[worldjem7]

Speed, range, AND strength.

But, I'm tired of trying to explain myself over and over again because you guys end up ignoring it or picking out specific parts of it so that you can just attack me again. So, good luck beating MKs with Marth. If you guys find a way to make Marth better than MK then you're amazing. Congrats to you.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Marth may have gotten some nerfs, but none of his nerfs really matter, as Marth's playstyle suits Brawl perfectly.

As for Marth vs. MK. I'm willing to accept Marth has the advantage in this matchup. I think what favors MK when it comes to the tier list is his ability to deal with every other character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

worldjem: You are a noob. STFU and GTFO if you are going to be stubborn.

Fogo: High tier seems good to me. But overall I can see Marth as 4th or 5th ranked. Maybe 3rd, but probably 4th or 5th.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

MK vs Marth is an even Matchup, and an exciting one at that. Neither one can camp, and can move and attack at ridiculous speeds.


It's one of the most exciting Matchups Brawl has to offer.

 

[Zankoku]

I think he'll be fighting for 4th with G&W. I'm pretty sure Marth has a better overall game, but he's relatively unpopular compared to G&W.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

So every one is in agreeance that Marth is no longer 3rd.
But no one can agree on who should be 3rd.

But our Mid and Low Tiers need discussion now

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth has the potential to be third, but I think G&W could take that spot.

 

[worldjem7]

worldjem: You are a noob. STFU and GTFO if you are going to be stubborn.

Fogo: High tier seems good to me. But overall I can see Marth as 4th or 5th ranked. Maybe 3rd, but probably 4th or 5th.

I'm stubborn? You're the one who keeps bringing up crap after crap desperately trying to defend your beloved Marth from being anywhere near mid tier such as bottom of high.

MK actually has things going for him but, you have to pull crap after crap out of your *** just to say "No Marth is better nya!"

I'm done with this crap because YOU'RE being stubborn.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Not once did he say Marth was better? He gave examples of match ups and attacking examples

 

[Fogo]

i say g&w will most likely be third because of the way he's been cleaning up in tournament lately, at least in texas he has.

i think it would be more of a fight between marth and dedede for 4th or 5th

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

I think G&W has a good chance of taking the spot, due to having a powerful air game, but also the benefit of being able to shut down projectile strategies and forcing the opponent to rely on up close attacks and mindgaming in order to shoot projectiles without them getting bucket'd.

 

[worldjem7]

I like how as soon as I stop posting this thread starts to go dormant lol.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ChigurhK: Emblem Lord
DrgSupergogeta: and who might you be?
ChigurhK: < points to screen name
DrgSupergogeta: ahh i guess u dont post on the boards?
ChigurhK: i do
DrgSupergogeta: u have the same name on the boards?
ChigurhK: maybe
DrgSupergogeta: ok..so how can i help you?
ChigurhK: stop being a douche
DrgSupergogeta: hahah
DrgSupergogeta: dexter?
ChigurhK: no
DrgSupergogeta: then who?
DrgSupergogeta: forget it
DrgSupergogeta: its negligible
DrgSupergogeta: im only a douche when people post flase info in a cocky manner
DrgSupergogeta: if u post something that is blatantly false and act like its fact..im going to make you look foolish
DrgSupergogeta: if someone doesnt like it
ChigurhK: you're a piece of ****
DrgSupergogeta: they should lurk more and post less
DrgSupergogeta: LMAO
DrgSupergogeta: this epic
DrgSupergogeta: wait
DrgSupergogeta: so ur basically some guy i ***** on the boards
DrgSupergogeta: and now ur butthurt
DrgSupergogeta: LOL
ChigurhK: What makes you so much better than me
ChigurhK: I told you, man, I told you! Don't **** with me! but you wouldn't listen, why, you stupid ****, look at you now.
DrgSupergogeta: ROFLMAO
DrgSupergogeta: this is hilarious
DrgSupergogeta: and to answer your question
DrgSupergogeta: i dont think im better then oyu at all
DrgSupergogeta: but when you post silly things on a forum
DrgSupergogeta: where people are trying to have intelligent discussion
DrgSupergogeta: you make yourself vulnerable
ChigurhK: You wanna waste my time? Okay. I call my lawyer. He's the best lawyer in Miami. He's such a good lawyer, that by tomorrow morning, you gonna be working in Alaska. So dress warm.

DrgSupergogeta: rofl
DrgSupergogeta: wtf are you tlaking about?
DrgSupergogeta: also yeah this is you dexter
DrgSupergogeta: saying ur from FL gave that **** away
ChigurhK: no it didn't
ChigurhK: i don't know dexter
DrgSupergogeta: ChigurhK: You wanna waste my time? Okay. I call my lawyer. He's the best lawyer in Miami. He's such a good lawyer, that by tomorrow morning, you gonna be working in Alaska. So dress warm.
DrgSupergogeta: Dexter Morgan
Smash Debater
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 77
DrgSupergogeta: GG
ChigurhK: You know what? **** you! How about that?
DrgSupergogeta: lol
DrgSupergogeta: plz kee posting
DrgSupergogeta: my boy is here now
ChigurhK: Why don't you try stickin jou head up your *** – see if it fits.

DrgSupergogeta: i want him to laugh at your idiocy
DrgSupergogeta: yes yes just like that keep going
DrgSupergogeta: this is awesome
ChigurhK: Me, I want what's coming to me.

ChigurhK: The world, Chico, and everything in it.
ChigurhK: -ahem-
ChigurhK: You **** wit me, you ****in' wit da best!"
ChigurhK: And chico, if anything happens to me, eee pobreci... my boss is gonna stick your heads up your ***** faster than a rabbit gets ****ed!
DrgSupergogeta: ur an idiot sir
DrgSupergogeta: keep going
DrgSupergogeta: amuse me more you dirty jackel
ChigurhK: I'll do what I wanna do, I'll see whoever I wanna see
ChigurhK: You can't tell me what to do
ChigurhK: You're ****in' *******. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be? You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your ****in' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!

DrgSupergogeta: yeah
DrgSupergogeta: so um
DrgSupergogeta: im gonna block oyur ******* now on aim and SWF
DrgSupergogeta: u arent wroth losing brain cells over by reading that stupid **** u have to say
ChigurhK: w/e
DrgSupergogeta: also
DrgSupergogeta: im saving this chatlog
DrgSupergogeta: i will read it everyday
DrgSupergogeta: i promise
ChigurhK: chinga usted puta
DrgSupergogeta: you ****ing moron
ChigurhK: if only u knew spanish

Lets this be a warning.

Don't **** with me.

And don't embarrass yourself like this failure.

 

[St. Viers]

*people, ignore worldgem...he's just trolling now, as evidenced by calling valid counters to his argument "crap," and saying showing how parts of an arguement are wrong isn't how to prove someone wrong.


I'd say 3rd is definitely G&W, for now. I think that will change, but as said before, tier lists are based on now, not later.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Top:
Snake
Meta Knight

High:
Mr. Game and Watch
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco
Toon Link
Wolf

Upper:
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Wario
Zelda
Pikachu
Olimar
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Pit
Donkey Kong

Mid:
Luigi
Lucas
Fox
ZSS
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Mario
Sonic
Ness
Peach

Low:
Yoshi
Sheik
Ike
Jigglypuff
Samus

Bottom:
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon


Alright, I updated the positions a bit and the names of the Tiers, so new comments please

 

[Amarkov]

Wait, what? Yoshi is mid tier now?

Did I miss something?

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Wall of Text

Dexter: "Mommy wow! I'm a big kid now!"

And that new list looks fairly good so far, though I can see where people may want to try and argue changes.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I took the opinions of everybody else stated before and moved characters up and down and renamed tiers and split tiers into a 3-5-11-10-5-3 format

 

[Jibbles]

I'm sorry but EL's conversation is hilarious

^^^^Tier list looks pretty good. However, G&W should be on the top of high tier imo, not on bottom of top tier (negligible, but still), and Yoshi for low.

EDIT: Seems that you've changed Yoshi already

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I wanted to make the tier list a mirror, but I suppose I will move G&W down if the majority agrees

 

[Http]

• 
  
  Personally, I believe that this is the best list so far. However, that doesn't stop me from having a few gripes about it.
  
  Warning: Most of them are opinionated, with little actual solid reasoning behind it >_>. My logic senses unfortunately aren't tingling today.
  
  -Doesn't affect order, but G&W should be High, not Top tier. Mostly to keep within the lines of the last Melee list, and I don't think that G&W quite treads on the territory that Snake/MK do. I do, however, support G&W's #3 position. It's a good place for him.
  
  -Ice Climbers are a tad high. I'm thinking below Wario.
  
  -Sonic is way too high. Below Link, perhaps?
  
  -This one is the most subjective of them all, but Falcon being the last spot just bothers me. I honestly don't believe that he's worse than Ganon. I'm aware that both are absolutely horrible, but things such as Falcon actually having a slight change at recovery should be considered. (and Falcon being more manly than Ganon)
  
  BTW, I support Upper tier being brought back. There's just way too many characters to sort in 5 tiers.
  
  So, totally pick my non-argument apart now.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Emblem Lord: I'm glad I've never managed to piss you off to that extent before.

@ Mike Echoes: Kirby and Wolf too high, I'd move them both just above where DK is now. I also don't think DK is higher than Diddy. Bowser, Wario, Zelda too low.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Yeah, like people said before, the differences between the Top of a certain Tier and the Bottom of the same Tier should NOT be drastically different in ability and prowess.

And G&W is back to High

@Kiko: I need positions to update too. I a trying to be unbiased and use opinions of others to make my Tier List. So with enough factual evidence and a logical spot to place a character I will move it if it is in the best interest of the combined community. (No hate directed towards you)


EDIT: List has been updated