Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I still believe as the Metagame evolves for Brawl, and people get better at this game, Ike will slowly and slowly get worse as a tournament character, simply because like you said, he's predictable.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I still believe as the Metagame evolves for Brawl, and people get better at this game, Ike will slowly and slowly get worse as a tournament character, simply because like you said, he's predictable.

Well, being predictable and being easily dealt with is two different animals here. I mean, people say G&W is predictable, but he's still difficult to play against. Obviously Ike isn't as good as G&W, and being predictable hurts a lot, but Ike actually does have options, making him just versatile enough not to suck completely. He's no super star, but I'd say tournament viable at least.

 

[Emperor Time]

i think most ppl have it wrong. as i main marth, im sad to say i think he's in lower high tier. fox isnt all that great and neither is sonic bcuz he lacks strength. in my opinion, the best characters in order are king dedede, meta knight, snake, falco, and ike. just my opinion

Okay. I'm going to have a breakdown.

DDD: A solid character. Many people used him early on and thought he was simply godly. Now, he's just outshined by many characters.

Meta Knight: No problem here.

Snake: Absurd. Snake is the best char. in the game.

Falco: Meh

Ike:: HELL.NO. Ike's power is pretty much the only thing he has going for him. Predictable ground game, less-than stellar air-game, and easily gimpable recovery make him high low or mid mid at best.

 

[BOFO]

While the top tiers people have been posting I really can't be arguing with, the lower tiers sure seem crazy. I can understand Ganondorf or Falcon, but seriously, Zelda? Jigglypuff?! Yes, no one is like they were in Melee, some people really got nerfed for the most part, but that doesn't matter at all due to how closely balanced everyone really is this time around. Melee was so broken, so comparing anything to that this time around is just foolish. Zelda is much better than she was in the past, and while some of her moves are a bit on the slow side, they're all really powerful, and are pretty easy to kill with. Peach has a pretty good air game going for her, plus her Toad counter can really be helpful at times. Jigglypuff I am really shocked as to being marked so low though. While rest isn't helpful as much now, her air game seems actually improved over Melee, and most of her ground moves all having killing potential. While a lot of the moves are somewhat slow, that just makes them a little more useful, like one someone just tries to roll back away from an attack while you're doing your side smash. Rollout has actually become useful this time around, and she can really add up damage on people if they get knocked onto the ground. Pound also has potential to break through most moves in the game, meaning Meta Knight's swift annoying sword movements can be busted through. Sing can actually be helpful if someone tries to roll past you and you do it then, as they'll fall asleep after finishing their rolling dodge. What's also fantastic is her neutral A, which not only lasts a long time, but you can just gently nudge someone with to hurt them from any side. If anything made sense, I'd say Jigglypuff would fit in around medium tier, not low or rock bottom.

Also, just because a character is slow doesn't mean they're quite useless, as this isn't Melee speed. You can easily score some hits with slower characters if you just predict how your opponent will move. Ike can easily score kills on anyone, although he's the only character I'd say would have such a slow speed that it actually cripples him.

 

[Snowstalker]

Top:

Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)

High:

Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)

Middle:

Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)

Low:

Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)

Bottom:

Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)

 

[BOFO]

Jigglypuff actually is harder to KO than in Melee. She'd die at around 60% easily back then, and now it's usually around 110%.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Still, it doesn't change the fact that.

-She is THE lightest fighter in the game
-While her aerial game is still good, many other character can do as good if not better and are better in many other areas
-Bar none, probably the worst Ground game in Brawl
-Horrible matchups across the board
-Aside from WOPs, has trouble KOing and racking up damage (Before you bring up MK, he racks up damage at a much faster pace, it balances out)
-Below average to Poor tourney standing to back up those matchups.

 

[acdizzy]

Top:

Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)

High:

Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)

Middle:

Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)

Low:

Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)

Bottom:

Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)

This list looks about as good as it's going to get for now though I am sort of thinking Jigglypuff should be replaced with Sonic. Sonic has just about nothing going for him while Jigglypuff still has her same floaty chase capabilities.

 

[katanagash]

This list looks about as good as it's going to get for now though I am sort of thinking Jigglypuff should be replaced with Sonic. Sonic has just about nothing going for him while Jigglypuff still has her same floaty chase capabilities.

Another thing about Sonic is his lack of range. His regular smash attack is so short.

 

[BOFO]

Still, it doesn't change the fact that.

-She is THE lightest fighter in the game
-While her aerial game is still good, many other character can do as good if not better and are better in many other areas
-Bar none, probably the worst Ground game in Brawl
-Horrible matchups across the board
-Aside from WOPs, has trouble KOing and racking up damage (Before you bring up MK, he racks up damage at a much faster pace, it balances out)
-Below average to Poor tourney standing to back up those matchups.

-If you're good, you shouldn't be getting hit, and also the light weight doesn't matter as much as you can still stand up to about 170% before you're finally dead no matter what, which is a vast improvement over Melee by far.
-Other characters may have an aerial game, but hers is by far the most lethal, especially considering how easily you can trap people with her moves in the air.
-Her ground game isn't actually that bad, and I am surprised everyone here thinks that. While her air game is obviously better, her ground moves can still be used effectively, and they all have killing potential. They may not do much damage, but they definitely push you far, especially her down smash.
-Horrible matchups across the board? What? Are we talking just random statistics people have taken? I've seen Jigglypuff take even some of the best fighters by surprise, but I dunno, I guess basing things just off two or three tournaments that have taken place within a month is as accurate as you can get right now.
-No trouble racking up damage, as I had posted. You can easily rack people up with some quick air movements mixed with the ground, and a vast majority of her moves kill. I don't know what you're talking about here.
-This doesn't matter at all, and I don't get why any of you consider this a valuable argument. Someone playing in a tournament doesn't determine how good that character is, especially because Brawl hasn't even been out for long.

 

[Browny]

cant... resist...

sonic stutter stepped fsmash is one of the longer ranged fsmashes in the game.
I think the only characters who outrange him on a fsmash are

ganon, CF, Mario (stutter stepped)
Link, Lucario, Olimar, Shiek, Wolf, Zamus, Ike

if you care to prove otherwise, please go and learn how to do it properly and youll find it easily outranges things like marth, pikachu etc fsmash.

 

[Emperor Time]

Even if her ariel game is great, that doesn't change the fact that many characters can stand toe to toe w/ her in the air. What's left for her after that? Her ground? No. Why? Because pretty much every character outclasses her there.

 

[SonicLucario]

cant... resist...

sonic stutter stepped fsmash is one of the longer ranged fsmashes in the game.
I think the only characters who outrange him on a fsmash are

ganon, CF, Mario (stutter stepped)
Link, Lucario, Olimar, Shiek, Wolf, Zamus, Ike

if you care to prove otherwise, please go and learn how to do it properly and youll find it easily outranges things like marth, pikachu etc fsmash.

QFT
Was about to post something ike that.Maybe not w/the examples but yeah.

 

[katanagash]

Top:

Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)

High:

Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)

Middle:

Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)

Low:

Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)

Bottom:

Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)

This is a very accurate tier list. The top tier especially. Only a few things I want to say:

1. Zelda not only got buffed, but she got super duper buffed. She is so much better than Mid Tier. I would say good enough for High Tier. She can spam with Din's Fire and use her up-hit ground attack to stop opponents from attacking above.

2. Lucario is also going to be high tier for sure. He is super floaty making him hard to kill. His aerials are godly, both his side and down airs. He gets stronger the more he takes damage, and he has the best roll in the game. Trust me on this, he's High tier.

Other than that, you have almost a perfect tier list.

 

[BOFO]

Even if her ariel game is great, that doesn't change the fact that many characters can stand toe to toe w/ her in the air. What's left for her after that? Her ground? No. Why? Because pretty much every character outclasses her there.

You tell me everyone can stand toe to toe with her aerial, and yet after all my games with tournament players, I have yet to see anyone even come close to rivaling its power. Maybe if you're a numbskull you'll try to do something like in Melee and just spam the same move, or just keep charging at someone, but if you actually think things out, you have quite a bit of power. Pound also breaks through almost everything as I stated before, so even if you're fighting a hefty competitor, you still have something to assist you. I dunno, argue all you want, I've been proven enough about her power, but most people seem to rather stick to what they're told then actually taking new things into account. Makes me happier to see her on the bottom tier, as more people will expect losing to her.

 

[AquaTech]

Wario will eventually work his way into that top tier as well. Just wait and see, once people learn how to use him correctly, he will work his way up there...

 

[BOFO]

Wario will eventually work his way into that top tier as well. Just wait and see, once people learn how to use him correctly, he will work his way up there...

DURR NO, TOURNAMENT RESULTS THIS EARLY PROVE OTHERWISE, AND ALWAYS WILL!!!!!!

 

[BDawgPHD]

-If you're good, you shouldn't be getting hit, and also the light weight doesn't matter as much as you can still stand up to about 170% before you're finally dead no matter what, which is a vast improvement over Melee by far.
-Other characters may have an aerial game, but hers is by far the most lethal, especially considering how easily you can trap people with her moves in the air.
-Her ground game isn't actually that bad, and I am surprised everyone here thinks that. While her air game is obviously better, her ground moves can still be used effectively, and they all have killing potential. They may not do much damage, but they definitely push you far, especially her down smash.
-Horrible matchups across the board? What? Are we talking just random statistics people have taken? I've seen Jigglypuff take even some of the best fighters by surprise, but I dunno, I guess basing things just off two or three tournaments that have taken place within a month is as accurate as you can get right now.
-No trouble racking up damage, as I had posted. You can easily rack people up with some quick air movements mixed with the ground, and a vast majority of her moves kill. I don't know what you're talking about here.
-This doesn't matter at all, and I don't get why any of you consider this a valuable argument. Someone playing in a tournament doesn't determine how good that character is, especially because Brawl hasn't even been out for long.

There were so many contradictions in this post that I almost passed out

*Edgeworth picture coming soon *

First of all, Jigglypuff's air game is nothing special. He has pretty good air speed, but his range and priority isn't very good. Squirtle and Wario have the same Jigglypuff-esque thing going for them, except for the fact that they don't suck ****. You can easily airdodge out of her moves, so she can't combo, pressure, and trap like you think she can. Her ground game sucks, she has no range or priority...Falcon's ground game is better than her's. Jiggs only real approach is dippin in with fairs and bairs, which are killed by move degradation....very difficult to rack up damage. Tournaments are usually made up of people that are sort of decent at the game. Of course there are nub tournaments, but let's put it this way....I didn't see one Jigglypuff the entire time I was at mass madness 9.

Also, the only decent Jigglypuff I've seen is .yoshi, and his Jiggs is only good on wifi anyway.




On another note, Sonic is definitely better than Jigglypuff....despite the fact that his range sucks, he's still pretty fast, can edgeguard without gimping himself, and can chase high in the air for potential kills. He's not good, but better than Jigglypuff. In fact, Sonic is in the "better than Jigglypuff" tier.

EDIT: His air speed might suck, but he makes up for it with his ground speed, which compensates to some extent. Also, ground games>>>>>air games, another reason why Jiggs sucks and Sonic is better =3

 

[Emperor Time]

You tell me everyone can stand toe to toe with her aerial, and yet after all my games with tournament players, I have yet to see anyone even come close to rivaling its power. Maybe if you're a numbskull you'll try to do something like in Melee and just spam the same move, or just keep charging at someone, but if you actually think things out, you have quite a bit of power. Pound also breaks through almost everything as I stated before, so even if you're fighting a hefty competitor, you still have something to assist you. I dunno, argue all you want, I've been proven enough about her power, but most people seem to rather stick to what they're told then actually taking new things into account. Makes me happier to see her on the bottom tier, as more people will expect losing to her.

Not so. I'm completely aware of Jigglypuff's game. However, i'm trying to say that comparitavely, she's not all that great. Besides I did not say everyone can stand toe to toe w/ her air game. I mean, saying Gannondorf can beat Jiggs in the air is absurd. You can say all this stuff about Jiggs (which is probably true) but, in the end, it just doesn't amount to all that much. She's a mediocre character.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Zelda has high priority, a reflector and one of the best projectiles in the game *insert evil laugh here*

 

[ShadowLink84]

You can easily airdodge out of her moves, so she can't combo, pressure, and trap like you think she can.

You can escape wario and squirt;les moves just as you ecape jiglypuffs. She can pressure moreso than squirtle and wario but it only takes effect outside of the stage where she is at her best.
Overall yes squirtle and Wario outdo her but in her speciality of outside the stage she can be deadly.

Only part that I disagree with honestly.

On another note, Sonic is definitely better than Jigglypuff....despite the fact that his range sucks,

his grab range is good.
his speed more than makes up for his range and his homing attack has pretty good range.
Its inaccurate though =(

He's not good, but better than Jigglypuff. In fact, Sonic is in the "better than Jigglypuff" tier.

Thats quite insulting especially to myself a Sonic main.
What about his three moves with invincibility frames?
His combo ability, his gimping ability, his great amount of approaches?
The only thing sonic really lacks is priority which hurts him since he is forced to be unpredictable in order to minimize clashing of attacks.
His moves link up well to each other.

Far better than jigglypuff thank you very much.

EDIT: His air speed might suck, but he makes up for it with his ground speed, which compensates to some extent. Also, ground games>>>>>air games, another reason why Jiggs sucks and Sonic is better =3

Sonics ground game is somewhat poor in comparison to other characters.

air games>>>>ground games, disagree, go speak to Marth. The amount of options for the best aerial character outweighs those of a pure ground character.

Furthermore Sonic's aerial speed is actually among the best. Go look at the informational chart on aerial speed.
not to mention he can use his spindashes to moves through the air almost as quickly as Wario, sometimes surpassing via SJC.

Use Sonic a bit more, he really requires alot more time to understand than other characters due to the high learning curve.
It really makes him difficult to figure out as compared to characters like Snake who are easily defined.

 

[Deleted member]

Jiggs is actually a pretty decent character, but most characters are better. She has an amazing shield dash, her dash attack is pretty good, and thats her ground game, which isnt very good, but shes not stayin grounded much anyways. As for her aerials.

She can sh double bair, which is very good, and bairs, tho nerfed, are still very good. Her fair was majorly buffed, kills well, and has very good range. Her nair was nerfed, but still has lots of priority. Her dair autocancels, can cause tripping, and when executed correctly, leads to rest. Her uair is very good for linking together. Her pound has unreal aerial priority, and beats almost every move in the air. HEr rest kills from around 70-90%

HEr aerial maneruverability is the best in the game. Yet, with all of these things, most characters are better than her -.-

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

2. Lucario is also going to be high tier for sure. He is super floaty making him hard to kill. His aerials are godly, both his side and down airs. He gets stronger the more he takes damage, and he has the best roll in the game. Trust me on this, he's High tier.

He's going to stay in Mid-Tier. While what you say may be true, it is not as extreme or by definition "lol, broken" like many character traits of characters in the high and top tiers.

Lucario is well rounded, and can exploit his strengths to help him, but since he does not really have a broken trait, and can be predictable, I doubt he'll go above Mid Tier.

 

[Onxy]

It's possible that he could be high, and it's possible that Snake won't top top forever.

 

[Frown]

Top:

Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)

High:

Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)

Middle:

Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)

Low:

Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)

Bottom:

Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)

Best one so far!

 

[Browny]

It's possible that he could be high, and it's possible that Snake won't top top forever.

we can only wish...

 

[BDawgPHD]

You can escape wario and squirt;les moves just as you ecape jiglypuffs. She can pressure moreso than squirtle and wario but it only takes effect outside of the stage where she is at her best.
Overall yes squirtle and Wario outdo her but in her speciality of outside the stage she can be deadly.

Only part that I disagree with honestly.



his grab range is good.
his speed more than makes up for his range and his homing attack has pretty good range.
Its inaccurate though =(


Thats quite insulting especially to myself a Sonic main.
What about his three moves with invincibility frames?
His combo ability, his gimping ability, his great amount of approaches?
The only thing sonic really lacks is priority which hurts him since he is forced to be unpredictable in order to minimize clashing of attacks.
His moves link up well to each other.

Far better than jigglypuff thank you very much.


Sonics ground game is somewhat poor in comparison to other characters.

air games>>>>ground games, disagree, go speak to Marth. The amount of options for the best aerial character outweighs those of a pure ground character.

Furthermore Sonic's aerial speed is actually among the best. Go look at the informational chart on aerial speed.
not to mention he can use his spindashes to moves through the air almost as quickly as Wario, sometimes surpassing via SJC.

Use Sonic a bit more, he really requires alot more time to understand than other characters due to the high learning curve.
It really makes him difficult to figure out as compared to characters like Snake who are easily defined.

While you can airdodge out of Wario's and Squirtle's movements, their weight makes them fall to the ground faster (good) and their jerkiness makes them a lot harder to predict. Because of this, Squirtle can pressure with aerials and then grab, and Wario can bite anyway.

Marth has somewhat of a good ground game, too. A good ground game is better than an equally good air game....if that makes any sense without being a contradiction. Being on the ground simply means more control. The reason ground games are good is because it's generally easier to make safe approaches and space without being punished, and you can grab, making shields much less effective. Marth is the exception, since he has shield breaker and since his aerial game is very safe for the most part anyway. I'm not saying that air games are pointless at all, I mean squirtle's ground game is pretty meh, but his air speed and small size make up for it. Wario's ground game isn't bad, and his air game is awesome, not to mention you can chomp people from the air if you gotta.

I don't remember Sonic's airspeed to be very good, if it was he would be far better than he is now. His spin dash might make his aerial speed faster, but you don't have utter control over your movements like Wario and Squirtle.

I know how to use Sonic, although I'm not very good with him in practice. I picked Sonic because someone ELSE was ****ting on him, and I knew he's a lot better than Jigglypuff.

 

[ShadowLink84]

While you can airdodge out of Wario's and Squirtle's movements, their weight makes them fall to the ground faster (good) and their jerkiness makes them a lot harder to predict. Because of this, Squirtle can pressure with aerials and then grab, and Wario can bite anyway.

Yes which is why I mentioned that overall their aerial game is better because of how quickly they can get back in the air.
The only time Jiggly's aerial game exceeds their own is outside of the stage over the pit of doom.
On the stage easily squirtle and Wario. I just like the puffballs air game ove rthe edge since I am used to chasing.

Marth has somewhat of a good ground game, too. A good ground game is better than an equally good air game....if that makes any sense without being a contradiction.

Nah don't worry I know what you mean.

Being on the ground simply means more control. The reason ground games are good is because it's generally easier to make safe approaches and space without being punished, and you can grab, making shields much less effective. Marth is the exception, since he has shield breaker and since his aerial game is very safe for the most part anyway. I'm not saying that air games are pointless at all, I mean squirtle's ground game is pretty meh, but his air speed and small size make up for it. Wario's ground game isn't bad, and his air game is awesome, not to mention you can chomp people from the air if you gotta.

True but spacing in the air is more easily done on the ground. This is especially true with the removal of wavedashing and L canceling which has weakened ground game and offensive games overall. As well as the lack of dash dancing it can be difficult to move quickly about and hav a safe approach.

In the air you aren't restricted in your movements on the ground and while you are more vulnerable, the amount of options available to you as well as the approaches do make up for it.

I don't remember Sonic's airspeed to be very good, if it was he would be far better than he is now. His spin dash might make his aerial speed faster, but you don't have utter control over your movements like Wario and Squirtle.

Not too sure but he is actually in the top 5 in air speed.

I know how to use Sonic, although I'm not very good with him in practice. I picked Sonic because someone ELSE was ****ting on him, and I knew he's a lot better than Jigglypuff.

Trust me once you figure out how to exploit his attacks, he can approach characters that are normally difficult like Wolf.
If only he had more priority =(






Since everyone els eis releasing a tier list I might as wel take a shot at it.

No particular order,
Top:

Snake:
Meta Knight
Olimar:
Marth :
Mr. Game & Watch:


High:
Falco:
R.O.B.:
Toon Link:
Pikachu:
Wolf:
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
Pit
Wario
Diddy Kong
Lucario

Middle:
Luigi
Kirby
Lucas
Zamus
Zelda (arguably high tier. Her aerial game makes me wonder though.)
Fox (another arguably high tier character)
Donkey Kong
Ness
Mario
Peach
Pokemon Trainer
Shiek
Sonic

Low:
Yoshi
Ike
Bowser
Samus
Link

Bottom:
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff




This is generic, the tiers are in no particular order.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Yes which is why I mentioned that overall their aerial game is better because of how quickly they can get back in the air.
The only time Jiggly's aerial game exceeds their own is outside of the stage over the pit of doom.
On the stage easily squirtle and Wario. I just like the puffballs air game ove rthe edge since I am used to chasing.

Nah don't worry I know what you mean.


True but spacing in the air is more easily done on the ground. This is especially true with the removal of wavedashing and L canceling which has weakened ground game and offensive games overall. As well as the lack of dash dancing it can be difficult to move quickly about and hav a safe approach.

In the air you aren't restricted in your movements on the ground and while you are more vulnerable, the amount of options available to you as well as the approaches do make up for it.

Not too sure but he is actually in the top 5 in air speed.


Trust me once you figure out how to exploit his attacks, he can approach characters that are normally difficult like Wolf.
If only he had more priority =(

All of this makes sense, except that the absense of wavedashing doesn't weaken ground games or offensive games, but rather what is needed to succeed in those areas. With wavedashing, characters with less traction can compensate for lack of range by attacking/grabbing while sliding, much like the stutter step does, and characters with range and less traction had a great advantage *cough**Marth**cough*. WDing also makes predicting a ground game that much harder. Without wavedashing, very fast characters and characters with a lot of range are the characters that succeed on the ground and consequently on offense. That's why Meta Knight (ranged tilts, quick smashes, good grabs backed up by good ground speed) and Bowser (obscene range on tilts without much lag, decent spacing with flame breath) have such good ground games.

Obviously being able to move while using attacks is a distinct advantage over being committed to moving a specific way or not at all on the ground, but the ground is where the approach is for the most part, since the threat of grabbing is always there, and there's a lot more you can do from the ground, including shield, roll, spot dodge, and.....well....walking away =3

EDIT: oops, that's going into defensive game....well, jabs and tilts are pro

 

[St. Viers]

um, whoever made the most recent tier list, luigi is good, but shouldn't be high tier, because of his speed, and general lack of lag to take advantage of (which is where, imo, luigi's biggest strength is)

 

[ShadowLink84]

All of this makes sense, except that the absense of wavedashing doesn't weaken ground games or offensive games, but rather what is needed to succeed in those areas. With wavedashing, characters with less traction can compensate for lack of range by attacking/grabbing while sliding, much like the stutter step does, and characters with range and less traction had a great advantage *cough**Marth**cough*. WDing also makes predicting a ground game that much harder. Without wavedashing, very fast characters and characters with a lot of range are the characters that succeed on the ground and consequently on offense. That's why Meta Knight (ranged tilts, quick smashes, good grabs backed up by good ground speed) and Bowser (obscene range on tilts without much lag, decent spacing with flame breath) have such good ground games.

yes which is what i mean.
WDing makes a ground game less predictable. It increased the range of the IC's it really did help the offensive game including for characters such as Marth.
The only characters whom WDing didn't help were those who barely moved while WDing. (Link and Zelda for example).

For example an exception to the rule of fast characters with a good ground game would be Sonic and Captain Falcon.
The lack of dash dancing as well limits what you can do and makes a ground game less predictable.
In the air I find myself much less restricted so its probably just from my experiences.

Obviously being able to move while using attacks is a distinct advantage over being committed to moving a specific way or not at all on the ground, but the ground is where the approach is for the most part, since the threat of grabbing is always there, and there's a lot more you can do from the ground, including shield, roll, spot dodge, and.....well....walking away =3

EDIT: oops, that's going into defensive game....well, jabs and tilts are pro

XD I was gonna point it out but you got there first.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Best one so far!

Not exactly. Peach should be in low tier, DK should be higher, move down Kirby and Pit, move up Ness just a bit, move down Yoshi a bit and move up Diddy Kong

 

[Snowstalker]

I decided to release a slightly edited version, based on comments from people who know more about Smash than I do.

Top:

Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)

High:

Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)

Middle:

Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)

Low:

Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)

Bottom:

Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)

 

[ShadowLink84]

How are Sonic's attacks slow?
Jesus people are misinformed.

 

[Emperor Time]

How are Sonic's attacks slow?
Jesus people are misinformed.

I think most of his b moves come out slow. Also, the lack of priority hurts him too.

 

[Sonic XD]

Sonic's attacks are not really slow at all.

 

[SonicLucario]

How are Sonic's attacks slow?
Jesus people are misinformed.

QFT (again)
Where do they come up with that stuff?

 

[AgentAO]

I think most of his b moves come out slow. Also, the lack of priority hurts him too.

Maybe his Neutral B comes out slow, but the other three come out fast enough, and even then you won't really be spamming his B moves to begin with.

And the rest of his attacks come out fast enough with little enough lag, save his dair without canceling the lag using spring attack and maybe his fsmash.

 

[Dojo]

Slow no. Weak priority is the reason. Most moves from anybody can outprioritize him or at least cancel the majority of his attacks out.

 

[Tenki]

People expect his attacks to come out at MK speed.

Either that or they've been spamming homing attack, b-air, and smashes all game >_>