Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Theftz22]

Luigi is Low tier not Mid, He is doing bad in tournies number 25 and his matchups are awful 9 advantges 6 neutral 22 disadvantages.

What 22 disadvantages? (Seriously, I'm not sure). I don't see how he is any lower than mid. Great recovery, has a projectile, crazy priority, no problems finishing, amazing arials, and no glaring weaknesses. Seriously, how could he be mid?

 

[shadowofchaos725]

In my humble opinion, I really think tiers are almost nonexistent in Brawl (remember, my HUMBLE opinion)...

I know there will be preferences based you your character... but I really think its just your thinking...

For example, one of my friends thought that Olimar will be definite bottom, but I fought my fair share of Olimar players online, as well as one of my friends....

Meh... He got beat BAD...

Well, that's just my thoughts on this.... Feel free to correct me if I happen to offend someone with this.....

 

[SheikSmasher]

My Tier list

Heres my tier list second one though so dont bite my head off about it =D Not in order from who bests who in that particular tier.

Top:
Snake
MetaKnight
Toon link
Marth

High:
Zelda
Mr Game & Watch
Falco
Pit
Rob
Diddy Kong
Olimar

Middle: ( Yes its Huge )
Ike
Kirby
King Dedede
Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Fox
Mario
Luigi
Wario
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Ness
Lucas
Pikachu
Squirtle
Charizard
Samus
Link

Low:
Peach
Ivysaur
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Yoshi
Captain Falcon

 

[Mr. Escalator]

You forgot G&W.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

In my humble opinion, I really think tiers are almost nonexistent in Brawl (remember, my HUMBLE opinion)...

I know there will be preferences based you your character... but I really think its just your thinking...

For example, one of my friends thought that Olimar will be definite bottom, but I fought my fair share of Olimar players online, as well as one of my friends....

Meh... He got beat BAD...

Well, that's just my thoughts on this.... Feel free to correct me if I happen to offend someone with this.....

I'm sorry, just because it's your own opinion doesn't mean it can overcome a FACT.


Tiers exist the second a character is made different from another. The only way you could even dispute tiers is if that there is Perfect Balance, which is impossible , or there is only one character. Saying Tiers don't exist is like saying Gravity isn't real.

 

[Theftz22]

SheikSmasher: bowser deserves mid. wario and dedede should be high. zelda is not at the top of the high tier list. jiggs and yoshi are better than ganondorf. ivysaur is not bottom. you left out some people like sonic and the ice climbers. Luigi is better than mario. I can't go on any further...stupidity eating me...from the inside out...gurgle...choking...dead.

 

[salaboB]

I'm sorry, just because it's your own opinion doesn't mean it can overcome a FACT.


Tiers exist the second a character is made different from another. The only way you could even dispute tiers is if that there is Perfect Balance, which is impossible , or there is only one character. Saying Tiers don't exist is like saying Gravity isn't real.

Speaking of fact...

Perfect balance (At least close enough that people can't tell the difference) isn't impossible for a game like Smash, it's just extremely difficult. Now, that's not saying it's happened here -- SSBB is noticably unbalanced and tires do exits, but saying it's impossible is just incorrect.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Speaking of fact...

Perfect balance (At least close enough that people can't tell the difference) isn't impossible for a game like Smash, it's just extremely difficult. Now, that's not saying it's happened here -- SSBB is noticably unbalanced and tires do exits, but saying it's impossible is just incorrect.

No, it isnt, not within a timespan of only 3 years. It would take a decade to get even close to balance like that, and even then, it still wouldn't be perfect. Perfect balance for an unconventional game like Smash....well that would take even LONGER.

Be reasonable, Developers will not spend a whole decade minimum of perfecting balance, and not only that, they would have the rest of the game to deal with.

 

[Grunt]

of course melee was perfectly balanced. haven't you heard?

No items
fox only
final destination.
XD

 

[ShadowLink84]

any game in which the characters are different compeltely=unbalanced


Only way you get perfect balance is if there was only 1 character.

 

[Ratherion]

Or if you played Super Smash Bros: Rock Paper Scissors.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Tier list made of personal expierience, opinion, and popular belief

-Super-uber tier-
(right now, I think both are interchangable, neither is clearly better)
Snake
MK

-Top-but-not-technically-at-the-top-
Marth- Great range, power and speed. Quick, deadly combos and good edguard. Nice priority too
G&W-Wow, where did this come from?Fast, great range and power. Good recovery, but needs better projectile
R.O.B-Strong attacks and projectiles, and recovery, but big and somewhat slow, vulnerable in the air
Toon Link- great projectiles, but light and few kill moves
Diddy- Solid attacks , but lacking range and power. Decent recovery. And <3 bannanas

-High-
Olimar-Good everything, but way too light and worst recovery
ICs- Great power, range, priority. Decent recovery, pretty light, if Nana dies you lose. Chaingrab =]
Falco- Havnt seen great use of him. But he has lots of potential
Wolf- Great power and decent speed. Great projectile, but horrible recovery and heavy but still dies earlier than he should
Pika- Strong thunder that kill even when diminished. Great d-smash, but lacking in other moves
D3- Really good range and power. Great projectile and good recovery. Heavy and lives long, good chaingrab. But also vulnerable in the air, and on the ground vs small and fasts.
Luigi- One of the best aerial games. Great recovery, but weak ground game
Wario- Probably the best aerial game in the game, with a WoP rivaling that of Jiggs. Excellent recovery with bike, and f-smash is one of the best in the game.
DK- Very underestimated. Great power and range, with good speed and recovery.
Kirby-Buffed. Not quite back to N64 glory days, but is alot more useful now. Can actually combo and KO. But less kirbycide options=[

-Mid-
Lucas- Good, but has flaws. Combos, fast, range. U-smash is incredible when it hits, but punishable and f-smash is super quick and strong. Chaingrab only really affects his Marth matchup. B-stciking and pk fire lead to good spacing
Zelda- Excellent power, range and prejectile. Best against countering approaches. Predictable reovery, kinda slow, and pretty light
ZSS- Excellent ranged attacks. Quick, and quick, KOing aerials too. Starts off with the best projectile in the game. But hard to get a KO, due the the spacing you need to pull off a strong attack
Fox- Nerfed, but more in the sense of "fixed". Not a bad character, but not an exceptionally good one either.
Ness- Actually got buffed, but not noticeable to others. But still not the best.
Pit- Great arrows for camping and solid smashes Pretty gimpable recovery though, and his aerials and tilts are sub-par. Kinda slow
Bowser- Excellent tilts and smashes. The bowserside is great for knocking out lives. Projectile racks up lots of damage. But easy to juggle and gimp, Kinda slow too
Squirtle- Fast with excellent aerials and aerial mobility. Decent KO attacks, and lots of mindgame potential with shell shifting and the likes
Lucario-Damage for power is nice, but he's not exactly built to be able to survive that long. Bad recovery, slow kill moves, but solid otherwise.

-Low-
Charizard- Very fast and powerful. But recovery is probably the worst for multiple jumping characters, and glide is horrible. And very vulnerable coming down, only 1.5 aerials hit below him
Ike- Strong.... I guess thats the best thing? Easily gimped and overwhelmed....but strong 0_o
Ivysaur- Actually quite solid. But too average, with a bad recovery.
Peach- Nearly everything got worse or the same. Projectiles do nothing now, and nearly all her attacks besides a few got weaker, althoguh there are some buffs, they clearly dont
Yoshi- I actually think he got a little better, but most dont. But he wasnt very good to begin with.
Jigglypuff- Not really nerfed at all, except for maybe rest, but got royally screwed over by the new physics. WoP< floaty physics and multiple aridodge. Rollout & fair did get better though >.<. Dissapointing, this Jiggs would have been amazing in Melee.
Samus- See Peach
Sheik- Also see Peach. (poor SSB girls, nearly all low tier)
Link- See Peach again lol. (but better bombs >.<)

-Bottom-of-the-barrel-
Gannondorf- Many people think hes the worst, but ive seen good things come from him. Just play a skilled Gannon player without using a uber tier character and youll see how spacing and mindgames can go a long way
Falcon-See Peach, but with more moves bad than good.
Sonic-See Falcon and Ike, but with less power and edgurading skills than Falcon, and speed swapped with power with Ike

 

[Cat Fight]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167365
This.

Only three characters can do what you're talking about.
I mentioned what they can do out of the breaking free animation because you weren't all that clear about release grabs. I wasnt sure if you were uninformed about the infinites only being for three, or if you were talking about silly things like tilts as they break out.

But I know now. You just didnt know Ness can only be CG'd by Marth, Charizard, and Squirtle. Hopefully that thread clears up the confusion. So many people still think Ness gets CG'd by the entire cast, but It's false.

I was under the impression it was more than just those three... I remember being able to release grab for a very long time with Bowser against Ness.

So idk... they retested it, I guess?

Anywho, I still think Ness is bottom tier.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I was under the impression it was more than just those three... I remember being able to release grab for a very long time with Bowser against Ness.

So idk... they retested it, I guess?

Anywho, I still think Ness is bottom tier.

Yeah they did. There was a thread which claimed a lot more had release grab infinites on Ness, Bowser being one of them, but it appears his testing was wrong. I think he was trying to control two characters at once (Grabbing over and over with one hand, and trying to sidestep with the other), so his results were skewed. If not, he may of been testing with computers, which wouldnt work.

Theres apparently a way out of Bowser's.

And anywho, I think he gets mid

 

[Corigames]

Saying Tiers don't exist is like saying Gravity isn't real.

Did you copy this from one of my earlier post... plagerism...

 

[Grunt]

Or if you played Super Smash Bros: Rock Paper Scissors.

didn't we decide rock was top due to epic mind games?
then paper, and scissors were bottom.

 

[MysticKenji]

Or if you played Super Smash Bros: Rock Paper Scissors.

I thought we agreed that Rock was Top-Tier?

And I second Ness being mid-tier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Did you copy this from one of my earlier post... plagerism...

No, I swear I completely thought of that on the spot.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sonic-See Falcon and Ike, but with less power and edgurading skills than Falcon, and speed swapped with power with Ike

Your personal experience is completely lacking and your opinion is just that, opinion.Popular belief is crap because people thought Link's ^B was overpowered in SSBM duringthe first year.
Sonic worse than Falcon at edge guarding?
*facepalm*

LRN2SNIC

 

[Barbeque]

The order from best to worst is only used for the categories. The order I put the characters in is not from best to worst. I might still fix it.

Top
Pit, G&W, Metaknight, R.O.B, Marth, Snake

High
Falco, TL, Diddy, D3, Olimar, Pikachu, Peach, Lucas, Luigi, Zelda, DK, Kirby

Mid
Fox, PT, Sheik, ICs, Mario, ZSS, Wolf, Sonic, Lucario, Link

Low
Samus, Wario, Ike, Ness, Jigglypuff, C.F

Bottom
Yoshi, Bowser, Ganon

 

[St. Viers]

no way bowser is lower than yoshi, CF, jiggz, Ike

and no way pit's top tier. Try switching falco and pit

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lucas shouldnt be high if Ness is low. Either place them both in mid of drop Lucas into Low

 

[St. Viers]

oh, yeah, MR. E, glad to see a ness user take the time to explain why ness isn't as bad as people think...thanks for the interesting read ^_^

 

[Not-Beef]

He completely forgot Mario on his experience biased tier list, laffz!
Everyone who did their own personal tier list was way wrong. ; [
That's not my opinion, it's a fact. Ganondorf, for example, should not be bottom tier. At least mid. You just gotta know how to use 'em. And Mario doesn't necessarily need kill moves if the player can outsmart his opponent when edgeguarding. (though characters like MK and Kirby are annoying)

 

[Cat Fight]

Yeah they did. There was a thread which claimed a lot more had release grab infinites on Ness, Bowser being one of them, but it appears his testing was wrong. I think he was trying to control two characters at once (Grabbing over and over with one hand, and trying to sidestep with the other), so his results were skewed. If not, he may of been testing with computers, which wouldnt work.

Theres apparently a way out of Bowser's.

And anywho, I think he gets mid

Ah, my bad then.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

He completely forgot Mario on his experience biased tier list, laffz!
Everyone who did their own personal tier list was way wrong. ; [
That's not my opinion, it's a fact. Ganondorf, for example, should not be bottom tier. At least mid. You just gotta know how to use 'em. And Mario doesn't necessarily need kill moves if the player can outsmart his opponent when edgeguarding. (though characters like MK and Kirby are annoying)

*FACEPALM*

The stupid "Every character is good, you just have to know how to use them" comment is not a legitamate arguement, espiacially when it's the only evidence you bring up because it can easily apply to EVERYONE. Please actually ack up your statements with facts

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Heh, no problem St. Viers. I love both the PK Users, but a lot of people underestimate Ness, or flat out don't like him. I guess I'm a ness advocate

I personally feel Ganondorf should be maybe low. He isn't a worthless character, but he does get outdone by many. I don't know where a lot of the lower characters fit in. I personally feel Yoshi isn't that bad, or even Sonic. I Think CF is the worst, but that might just be me.

Mario is very good, and people like Boss have made my opinion of him pretty high.

The high/top tiers are easy to place, but I think many people misplace the low/bottom characters.

 

[shadowofchaos725]

I'm sorry, just because it's your own opinion doesn't mean it can overcome a FACT.


Tiers exist the second a character is made different from another. The only way you could even dispute tiers is if that there is Perfect Balance, which is impossible , or there is only one character. Saying Tiers don't exist is like saying Gravity isn't real.

Thank you for the clarification....

I really thought tiers were basically saying some character are just plain sucky...

Thank you for correcting my mistake....

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

At least you learned from it, unlike the others who just refuse to believe such a simple concept.

 

[YoshiKongBarkley3000]

I think the top three characters in the game are

Snake
Marth
Wolf

and DK haters donkey kong may have a horrible final smash but he got a lot better since melee three of his moves he has armor frames and he can stage spike and is fastest of the heavyweights.

 

[ShadowLink84]

his FS is awesome though...

 

[Ratherion]

Like, Ike kills someone with a sword, oh noes.

But to kill someone with Bongo Power?

That's impressive.

 

[Iachoku]

*FACEPALM*

The stupid "Every character is good, you just have to know how to use them" comment is not a legitamate arguement, espiacially when it's the only evidence you bring up because it can easily apply to EVERYONE. Please actually ack up your statements with facts

It depends on the context in which the argument is made.
In this thread, I think it's perfectly legitimate, considering that chances are no one here is equally skilled with every character.

And just for the record, I don't think Dedede's chain grabbing, and Ness and Lucas' inability to break out of certain character's chain grabs should be taken into account when making tier lists, on account of them pretty much being cheap tricks that don't take a hell of a lot of skill to take advantage of.

 

[Empy]

Ah, my bad then.

On your list, you forgot Ike, just so you know.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Luigi is Low tier not Mid, He is doing bad in tournies number 25 and his matchups are awful 9 advantges 6 neutral 22 disadvantages.

That matchup chart isn't fact you know. You shouldn't rely on it THAT much.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I think the top three characters in the game are
Snake
Marth
Wolf

and DK haters donkey kong may have a horrible final smash but he got a lot better since melee three of his moves he has armor frames and he can stage spike and is fastest of the heavyweights.

This is, like, the most epic display of fail I've ever seen. Holy ****.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

I think the top three characters in the game are

Snake
Marth
Wolf

and DK haters donkey kong may have a horrible final smash but he got a lot better since melee three of his moves he has armor frames and he can stage spike and is fastest of the heavyweights.

*Facepalm*

Wolf is not one of the best characters in this game. And you forgot that one character who has fast attacks, quick speed, a great recovery, and he counters almost every character in this game. Oh yeah Meta Knight!

 

[BDawgPHD]

*Facepalm*

Wolf is not one of the best characters in this game. And you forgot that one character who has fast attacks, quick speed, a great recovery, and he counters almost every character in this game. Oh yeah Meta Knight!

He also brought final smashes into the discussion. That little peckerhead doesn't know jack **** about life, let alone brawl.

I would say that wolf is probably the worst of the best, though. And that MK is the best, or second only to Snake......it's too close to say for sure **cough*snakesnakesnakemksnakesnake**cough**

 

[_Natirasha]

And just for the record, I don't think Dedede's chain grabbing, and Ness and Lucas' inability to break out of certain character's chain grabs should be taken into account when making tier lists, on account of them pretty much being cheap tricks that don't take a hell of a lot of skill to take advantage of.

But...isn't that...the exact reason...we have tier lists..?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

It depends on the context in which the argument is made.
In this thread, I think it's perfectly legitimate, considering that chances are no one here is equally skilled with every character.

And just for the record, I don't think Dedede's chain grabbing, and Ness and Lucas' inability to break out of certain character's chain grabs should be taken into account when making tier lists, on account of them pretty much being cheap tricks that don't take a hell of a lot of skill to take advantage of.

I'm really ****ing glad that the competitive scene is being run by idiots like you