Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Kiwikomix]

@ SaxDude: Ike does have an approach (sideB or "Grand Viper" or whatever it's called) but it gets naner'd.

The only real problem for Diddy is he gets outranged, and even that's not an issue since Ike is too slow to do anything about anything.

 

[St. Viers]

^^exactly, I figured that ike's range+power should (with enough "mind-games") over come diddy's relatively weak camping, ranged game, but it doesn't. Even with a drastic skill difference between the characters (i'm almost positive I could have wiped the floor with the dude with any other char, even falcon...)

Admittedly, I don't have the best "mind games," but...

 

[Kiwikomix]

It's not just you with poor mindgames, it's Ike. He is the straight-up heavy-hitting go-for-the-KO guy whose special moves do the exact same thing. The biggest mindgame Ike has is counter.
This could be why Ike doesn't have much of a learning curve, and therefore why he places so low in tiers.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Tier list made of personal expierience, and the obcious

-Super-uber tier-
(right now, I think both are interchangable, neither is clearly better)
Snake
MK

-Top-but-not-technically-at-the-top-
Marth- Great range, power and speed. Quick, deadly combos and good edguard. Nice priority too
G&W-Wow, where did this come from?Fast, great range and power. Good recovery, but needs better projectile
R.O.B-Strong attacks and projectiles, and recovery, but big and somewhat slow, vulnerable in the air
Toon Link- great projectiles, but light and few kill moves
Diddy- Solid attacks , but lacking range and power. Decent recovery. And <3 bannanas

-High-
Olimar-Good everything, but way too light and worst recovery
ICs- Great power, range, priority. Decent recovery, pretty light, if Nana dies you lose. Chaingrab =]
Falco- Havnt seen great use of him. But he has lots of potential
Wolf- Great power and decent speed. Great projectile, but horrible recovery and heavy but still dies earlier than he should
Lucas- Good, in sort of like a Marth way. Combos, fast, range. U-smash is incredible, and f-smash is super quick and strong. Chaingrab only really affects his Marth matchup
Pika- Strong thunder that kill even when diminished. Great d-smash, but lacking in other moves
Luigi- One of the best aerial games. Great recovery, but weak ground game
D3- Really good range and power. Great projectile and good recovery. Heavy and lives long, good chaingrab. But also vulnerable in the air, and on the ground vs small and fasts.
DK- Very underestimated. Great power and range, with good speed and recovery.
Kirby-Buffed. Not quite back to N64 glory days, but is alot more useful now. Can actually combo and KO. But less kirbycide options=[

-Mid-
Wario- Probably the best aerial game in the game, with a WoP rivaling that of Jiggs. Excellent recovery with bike, and f-smash is one of the best in the game.
Zelda- Excellent power, range and prejectile. Best against countering approaches. Predictable reovery, kinda slow, and pretty light
ZSS- Excellent ranged attacks. Quick, and quick, KOing aerials too. Starts off with the best projectile in the game. But hard to get a KO, due the the spacing you need to pull off a strong attack
Fox- Nerfed, but more in the sense of "fixed". Not a bad character, but not an exceptionally good one either.
Pit- Great arrows for camping and solid smashes Pretty gimpable recovery though, and his aerials and tilts are sub-par. Kinda slow
Bowser- Excellent tilts and smashes. The bowserside is great for knocking out lives. Projectile racks up lots of damage. But easy to juggle and gimp, Kinda slow too
Squirtle- Fast with excellent aerials and aerial mobility. Decent KO attacks, and lots of mindgame potential with shell shifting and the likes
Ness- Actually got buffed, but not noticeable to others. But still not the best.
Lucario-Damage for power is nice, but he's not exactly built to be able to survive that long. Bad recovery, slow kill moves, but solid otherwise.

-Low-
Charizard- Very fast and powerful. But recovery is probably the worst for multiple jumping characters, and glide is horrible. And very vulnerable coming down, only 1.5 aerials hit below him
Ike- Strong.... I guess thats the best thing? Easily gimped and overwhelmed....but strong 0_o
Ivysaur- Actually quite solid. But too average, with a bad recovery.
Yoshi- I actually think he got a little better, but most dont. But he wasnt very good to begin with.
Jigglypuff- Not really nerfed at all, except for maybe rest, but got royally screwed over by the new physics. WoP< floaty physics and multiple aridodge. Rollout & fair did get better though >.<. Dissapointing, this Jiggs would have been amazing in Melee.
Samus- Nearly everything got worse or the same. Projectiles do nothing now, and nearly all her attacks besides a few got weaker. And shes a really big target with a bad roll
Peach- See Samus.(good >b tho =])
Sheik- Also see Samus. (poor SSB girls, nearly all low tier)
Link- See Samus again lol. (but better bombs >.<)

-Bottom-of-the-barrel-
Gannondorf- Many people think hes the worst, but ive seen good things come from him. Just play a skilled Gannon player without using a uber tier character and youll see how spacing can go a long way
Falcon-See Samus, but with more moves bad than good.
Sonic-See Falcon and Ike, but with less power and edgurading skills than Falcon, and speed swapped with power with Ike

 

[gallax]

team up ike in doubles and you can make sure he's a plus on your team. charge his neutral b and smash!

 

[Dexter Morgan]

Top:
Metaknight
Marth
Snake
Pit
GnW

High:
Rob
Kirby
Wario
Wolf
Olimar

Middle:
Ike
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Mario
Luigi
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Zelda
Dedede
Pikachu

Low:
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
ZSS
Ice Climbers
Ness
Lucas
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
Bowser

Bottom:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Lucario

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Top:
Low:
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
ZSS
Ice Climbers
Ness
Lucas
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
Bowser

Bottom:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Lucario

I'm sorry... what?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Thought you didn't believe in Tiers eh?

 

[St. Viers]

^^why is lucario the worst char? why is ganon higher than so many people? why is falcon higher than other people?

 

[Metal_Dave]

team up ike in doubles and you can make sure he's a plus on your team. charge his neutral b and smash!

Team up double mk and that team will be toast in less than 2 minutes lol

 

[Browny]

lol @ people saying diddy being outraned by ike isnt a problem, since hes fast enough, while sonic is at a chronic disadvantage because of ikes range.

go figure (no really, do it)

 

[Kasai]

Top:
Metaknight
Marth
Snake
Pit
GnW

High:
Rob
Kirby
Wario
Wolf
Olimar

Middle:
Ike
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Mario
Luigi
Fox
Falco
Sheik
Zelda
Dedede
Pikachu

Low:
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
ZSS
Ice Climbers
Ness
Lucas
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
Bowser

Bottom:
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Lucario

This is a failure of a tier list. Not only is the top tier messed up but it's basically completely wrong though out. Just a few characters that probably shouldn't be where they are :

Too high:
Marth
Pit
C Falcon
Gdorf
More but I'm gonna focus more on those who are too low...

Too low:
Toon link
DK
Falco
Zelda
Pikachu
ZSS
Bowser
Dedede
Sonic
Lucario

Definitely lucario.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lol @ people saying diddy being outraned by ike isnt a problem, since hes fast enough, while sonic is at a chronic disadvantage because of ikes range.

go figure (no really, do it)

There's a difference, Diddy has Nanerz to deal with that problem, Sonic doesn't

 

[St. Viers]

yeah, Ike's problem isn't diddy's speed, except that diddy's speed punishes anything Ike tries to do to eliminate bananna problem.

Sonic HAS to approach, where as diddy is given one of the safest approaches ever due to glide-tossed banannas.

Learn to not just troll about sonic without thinking please, djbrowny

 

[Benjamin Linus]

ike's issue with diddy is a combination of diddy's speed and bananas. diddy can continuously spam him and run in and out of his range with quick multi hits like his dash attack and up smash. if diddy was missing one of the two advantages in this matchup i would say it would be even, but otherwise id say its 7-3 for diddy.

 

[Deathcarter]

Tier list

Nice tier list for one that was thought out with personal experience. I have a few problems though:
1. Sonic is not worse than Ganondorf and Falocn. Sonic is at least low.
2. I like Ivasaur but he is too high. Unless you can set up bullet seed, he has a hard time racking up damage. His kill moves are easily telegraphed as Ivasaur has one attack that hits downward in the air and 1 non bullet seed attack that hits upward in the air. Sadly, those are his easiest kill moves to hit with. He pretty much sucks since Charizard has an easier time killing than him and has better recovery and is heavier. Ivasaur in top of bottom.
3. Kirby into top of middle since of all those higher than him, he only matches up well with dedede.
4. Shiek TOO low!!!
5. Put Zelda in high before Hedgehawg snaps at you.
6. Of any Nintendo character in smash, you forget Mario.

Also why is nobody paying attention to this guy and focusing on the piece of crap Dexter made?

 

[St. Viers]

cause dexter is annoying, and very passively trolling....

 

[Grunt]

Don't double post please.^

Every character is good if you know how to use them. Everyone has a different playing style and everyone needs to find a character that fits their style. There are also way too many mixed opinions about each character. Which means there will never be a perfect tier list. It seems tiers are made as an excuse when someone loses. Thus game is the most balanced game ever made, and when a game is this balanced... Tiers Fail.

You are a mindless buffoon who does not deserve the title of Debater.

Not to mention you say they fail only to create your own list.

Hypocrites have no place in this sort of discussion and need to leave. If you hate tiers, don't come here. if you do, create a worthy post everyone else can discuss.

My 2 cents are in, now to note something worthwhile...

 

[Deleted member]

I dont see where people are getting the c falcon> ganny crap. All of gannys aerials are better, save maybe nair, but at least gannons has priority. Dair is rediculous and combos, uair is great, fair is amazing killer, and bair is decent. Gannons tilts are better. Sparta kick is great, dtilt is great, utilt sucks but who cares. Gannons smashes are different, im not sure if better or worse, but his usmash is pretty good, and his fsmash kills at rediculously low percents. Gannys side b is omgwtfhaxly better than falcons, both of their neutral bs arent used, gannys down b is probably better, and falcon's up b has longer recovery. Speed? What does it matter when falcon cant do much when inside anyways. His uair is pretty decent, but his knee was nerfed a ton, and even when it hits, its not as good as it used to be.

Also, when ur thinking of where ur character should be on the tier list (mostly applies to "low tier" mains), think first of who ur character is better than and why.

 

[Grunt]

I dont see where people are getting the c falcon> ganny crap. All of gannys aerials are better, save maybe nair, but at least gannons has priority. Dair is rediculous and combos, uair is great, fair is amazing killer, and bair is decent. Gannons tilts are better. Sparta kick is great, dtilt is great, utilt sucks but who cares. Gannons smashes are different, im not sure if better or worse, but his usmash is pretty good, and his fsmash kills at rediculously low percents. Gannys side b is omgwtfhaxly better than falcons, both of their neutral bs arent used, gannys down b is probably better, and falcon's up b has longer recovery. Speed? What does it matter when falcon cant do much when inside anyways. His uair is pretty decent, but his knee was nerfed a ton, and even when it hits, its not as good as it used to be.

Also, when ur thinking of where ur character should be on the tier list (mostly applies to "low tier" mains), think first of who ur character is better than and why.

Agreed.

10Ganonmains

 

[Tien2500]

Well Falcon does have a few advantages. He jumps higher and falls slower (I think... not 100% sure) so he has more potential for chasing opponents off the edge. So maybe if this can be exploited it could put falcon over G-dorf. Maybe.

 

[hizzlum]

*waiting for emblem lord with his supreme knowledge of marth (top of the high, the top tier is undoubtedly Snake and MK) to incinerate BDawgPHD's ignorance after BDawgPHD said bowser and olimar are better than marth *

 

[Yuna-Maria]

*waiting for emblem lord with his supreme knowledge of marth (top of the high, the top tier is undoubtedly Snake and MK) to incinerate BDawgPHD's ignorance after BDawgPHD said bowser and olimar are better than marth *

He already did. Surprisingly, so did I.

 

[hizzlum]

He already did. Surprisingly, so did I.

Good job serving justice but I think he replied after emblem lord got him in round a few pages back

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lol way to come late to the party.

 

[Grunt]

lol way to come late to the party.

Time to start a new one. RAAAAVE!

Ok, um what do you think on Lucario's placement? he seems to have a great deal of neuteral matchups, and based on personal exp. would put him solely in the middle of middle.

 

[thesultan2112]

Here's a little guess as to what the top and high tiers are based on the current metagame, and they are in order:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

you talk about the whole metagame stuff, would that really be enough to push Sanke to top, i mean, like yousaid he has the whole metagame down , but putting him on top BECAUSE of it seems a lil dramtic imo

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm with Grunt, only I would like to add that I consider Lucario the "Melee Mario" of Brawl. He doesn't have a lot going for him, but I wouldn't call him an absolutely horrendous character. He's rounded out quite nicely, with decent priority and an awesome innate ability pertaining to his Aura-based attacks (edit: And when I mention that ability, I mean the fact that he gets decent range on some of his attacks; the scaling damage thing appears to be minute to me).

He does have a hard time killing people, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Lucario's damage scaling based on his percentage, while admittedly cool, isn't really enough to bump him up on the tier list at all. He'll usually die long before 182%.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Lucario's damage scaling based on his percentage, while admittedly cool, isn't really enough to bump him up on the tier list at all. He'll usually die long before 182%.

Yeah. He usually eats a bunch of Smashed Over B missiles long before THAT happens.

I think we should expand the top tier a teensy little bit. I agree with everybody putting MK and Snake up there, but I feel as if somebody from the High Tier listings have gotta be thrown up there. I'm vouching for Marth or Falco.

Smash Front Room, what are your thoughts?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grunt]

At high level of competition, the "balance" of brawl is becoming more and more UNbalanced. it's clear that snake and MK are gods of Brawl. next would be any of Marth, Falco, or GnW, BUT they're not in top for a reason. Snake and MK are simply out of everyone elses league. Tournament listings show this.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I believe the top should see some more members at this point.
Something like:

Snake
MK
G&W
Marth
Falco
and possibly R.O.B.?

Iunno. I don't really like seeing so many different sections.
We dont need both high and higher tier.
Or even an upper tier >_>

just bump the really good high tiers into top to make room for some more characters that seemingly deserve the rank of High.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

At high level of competition, the "balance" of brawl is becoming more and more UNbalanced. it's clear that snake and MK are gods of Brawl. next would be any of Marth, Falco, or GnW, BUT they're not in top for a reason. Snake and MK are simply out of everyone elses league. Tournament listings show this.

I'll have to be wishy-washy and agree with that, Grunt. No argument here.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grunt]

I believe the top should see some more members at this point.

Is that why melee's tier list has had 1-2 Tops throughout their tier listing time? currently the top consists of 2 characters, and the bottom has 8. should we bumps the high to top to make room for a bigger middle and smaller bottom? no. they simply are cut by gaps of divine brilliance. EX:

Snake
MK

*Divinely Brilliant Gap of Skill/Matchups/tourney placings*

GnW
Marth
Falco
etc....

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The only thing I actually see seperating the groups at this point is the current tornament listings. Skill is subjective, and Marth and G&W look to have better matchups than Snake in the Matchup thread. The tournament listings are directly influenced by who most perceive to be the best. Snake and MK have a lot of good being said of them, and a big influx of people are bandwagoning to them. This helps their metagame advance, and seemingly places them leagues ahead of most characters

It feels like sticking a nail in the coffin of the high tiers to dismiss what they have going for them in lieu of the tournament listings.

Dedede was the third after Snake/MK in Ankoku's character ranking thread but he certainly isn't placing as well in most of your tier lists. For example.

Nobody counter's G&W like R.O.B./Pikachu counter Snake.
I think top should include a few more for the time being and work from there.

But i'm not making the lists, I'm just giving my opinion on what Smooth asked.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I agree that tournament listing should have some say-so in who gets placed at what spot on the list, but it shouldn't be the only reference. Two characters have won more tournaments listed here than Meta Knight. One is Snake, and the other is Wario. I don't believe for a second that Wario is better than Meta Knight....or hell, even better than King Dedede. Another good example would be Sonic. Sonic has won more tournaments than Samus has, but there is no way in HELL that Sonic is a better character.

 

[The Pope]

When it comes to the tier list suggestions, why doesn't anyone ever put IC's up there? I personally think they are the second best in Brawl as of now. Their metagame is downright vicious when played at the highest level. Chaingrabs, disjointed hitboxes, camping game, etc. can't really be underestemated.

For me personally, I'd say the top three are Snake, Ice Climbers, and Falco.

 

[Koga]

I'm Honestly becoming more and more unimpressed with snake, MK has what it takes to get there, but even he can't keep tornado going indefinately, even if you are the best player.

I just believe that Snake and MK just have the most players right now. I mean seriously, half of the entries in the tournies i go to are snake and MK, followed by an obscene amount of wolves, then me the lone marth (Yes i switched to marth because of fox's inferior matchups). I consistenly make the top 8 and win some, but our tournies probably aren't respected enough.

I mean, even when i watch the "best" snakes, it just seems like players are just scared of snake, he just doesn't seem like the BEST. He's good yeah, really good, but not the Best.

there's just way too many snake and MK players right now. Once the craze dies down we'll see more of other characters. Heck, the ICs have an infinate but aren't placing well, once someone masters that; watch out.

Olimars and DeDeDes are on the rise, and my marth is getting better. people just aren't as scared of snake anymore. Just watch the next 3-6 months of tournies and see how snake does, he might keep winning, he might not, i just am not convinced after 2 months of tournies that we can crown Snake the best, i mean we thought shiek was the second coming this early in melee didn't we?

 

[SheikSmasher]

Sheik should be middle tier not low

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm Honestly becoming more and more unimpressed with snake, MK has what it takes to get there, but even he can't keep tornado going indefinately, even if you are the best player.

I just believe that Snake and MK just have the most players right now. I mean seriously, half of the entries in the tournies i go to are snake and MK, followed by an obscene amount of wolves, then me the lone marth (Yes i switched to marth because of fox's inferior matchups). I consistenly make the top 8 and win some, but our tournies probably aren't respected enough.

I mean, even when i watch the "best" snakes, it just seems like players are just scared of snake, he just doesn't seem like the BEST. He's good yeah, really good, but not the Best.

there's just way too many snake and MK players right now. Once the craze dies down we'll see more of other characters. Heck, the ICs have an infinate but aren't placing well, once someone masters that; watch out.

I think Snake is going to go down eventually when people start accepting that he actually has a lot of trouble with other campers.

Metaknight however is extremely low lag to the point where he can leave all of his attacks unpunishable. He's also like better at killing and gimping than Snake lol.