Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Eclipse_the_Sun]

ok if we need new charecters to discuss how about zamus and toon link

for zamus imo shes high tier at the lowest. Shes fast, deals out reasonable damage, has good ko potential, has a projectile (even if it isnt very good it can still lead to some useful mind games), has multiple spikes, can combo preaty well and her recovary isnt as bad as people say it is

as for TL iv seen him consitantly place mid high tier for about the 100 pages with very little discussion and im just wondering how he has developed. To me TL seems like a charecter that does everythiing well but nothing spectacularly. imo he doesnt seem to have many advanced techniques or mind games (correct me if im wrong but please dont flame). So basically do you think that TL can hold the position he has.

 

[St. Viers]

ZSS: I think she'll go higher as more people play her. She has no great points, lacking a solid aerial game, short projectile, and slightly laggy kill moves. He recovery isn't great, even if not terrible. I'd say just wait...

TL: pretty much he's okay at everything, but not great, except spamming, and dying...which balances ^_^ He's def. stay high-mid or higher

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

just wondering what do you folks think of donkey and diddy? Just wondering.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

They're both hairy monkeys, NEXT.


inb4racialjokes.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

They're both hairy monkeys, NEXT.


inb4racialjokes.

thanks for taking me seriously

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lol I'm kidding I'm kidding.

Anyways DK's been impressive, and considering the fact that he actually has good matchups with the higher ups and is performing well in tourneys, he could place high, like High mid-Low high high.

Diddy, all I can say is....need moar nanerz. His banana fortress tactics can really make hell an annoying opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I get my character info mostly from personal experience, taking into account mostly the best use of each character that I've seen. This is why most of my experience is with MK, DK, Bowser, Luigi, etc. and not so much with Wolf, TL, etc. Although recently I've seen some of the tourney-popular characters in action, so I have a pretty good idea of things.

I don't really take this thread too too seriously, save some nuggets of intelligent perception. I check a character forum here or there sometimes, although personal experience is far more beneficial to me....I'm lucky enough to play with people that are good at Brawl.



Too true XD



I don't need to. I simply have more experience than you, so I can throw that around and it makes me right

Besides, I'm not saying Marth is bad, I'm just saying that Snake, Meta Knight, Toon Link, Olimar, Dedede, ROB, G&W, DK, and Bowser are all better than him.

You might have more experience then me, but experience means little when you don't comprehend it or know how to analyze or understand the info that your experiences have given you.

Only Snake and MK are better then Marth for sure.

DK and Bowser? No. Marth destroys them in terms of match-ups and attributes. Marth, TL, Dedede and R.O.B are all on the same level more or less.

**** it.

I'm done talking to you.

You don't know anything about Marth. You said Marth is mid tier and you have proven time and again that you can't debate for **** and the "evidence" you provide is usually complete BS or has no real bearing on why a character is good or bad.

I mean, you were the guy going on and on about MK's proximity range earlier in this thread.

>_>

Yeah. W/e. Keep thinking Marth sucks.

It just proves your ignorance.

Also this thread needs to closed. About 15 pages back Kiwi posted the best tier list. NSS has posted some good ones too.

 

[Kiwikomix]

The major thing I have against Diddy is that his recovery has to be charged and therefore is gimped fairly easily. Beyond that, his naners make mindgamez but can be used against him. His projectile is probably the worst in the game since it can be caught and doesn't do much damage. Weight is also an issue when coupled with his recovery, although he could just use sideB.

DK... is underrated. Good range, suicides, cargo throws off the side of the stage, numerous spikes... the only real weaknesses he has are his slowishness, crappy vertical recovery, and he's a big target. Top of mid, I think.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

The major thing I have against Diddy is that his recovery has to be charged and therefore is gimped fairly easily. Beyond that, his naners make mindgamez but can be used against him. His projectile is probably the worst in the game since it can be caught and doesn't do much damage. Weight is also an issue when coupled with his recovery, although he could just use sideB.

DK... is underrated. Good range, suicides, cargo throws off the side of the stage, numerous spikes... the only real weaknesses he has are his slowishness, crappy vertical recovery, and he's a big target. Top of mid, I think.

i think he's (dk) crazy fast for a fighter of his size and streangth. I can easily beat the crap out of players who use much faster characters cause the underestimate his speed. And yes he is sorta underrated.

 

[St. Viers]

Also, cargo gimps ftw. Though it's not really a gimp because they have to be damages >_>

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Despite the fact that ninety percent of my points are valid, I'm still a gigantic Marth fanboy, and plan on changing my username to "Mrs. Marth."

I'm messing with you, dude. I just wanted to shorten your post a bit and decided to make a crack at your passion for Marth.
No, but seriously, everything that you said is true. Also, BDawg, what the hell? There's no way on this green earth that Donkey Kong and Bowser are better than Marth. Hell, not even King Dedede is better than Marth. In fact....yeah, every character you listed is definitely inferior to Marth, with the exception of Meta Knight and Snake. But the fact that you listed Bowser as better than Marth shows how much of a moron you really are.
When a post is so stupid that it has me defending Marth, you know it's bad. I can't freakin' stand Marth...freakin' Sailor Scout wannabe....

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

i also have found his airials to be really good kill moves, especially upair. And as a side note i personally love releasing a fully charged giant punch on a recovering opponent. It is one of the most satisfying things to do in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't need to change my name. My real name is Marcel. Close enough to Marth IMO.

We share the first 3 letters. Good enough for me.

^_^

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I don't need to change my name. My real name is Marcel. Close enough to Marth IMO.

We share the first 3 letters. Good enough for me.

^_^

Wow.
You really do have a part of Marth inside you.
Does it feel good? Does that part of Marth feel good inside you? Hm?
Oh, god...you're too much fun, dude. Too much.

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^ Innuendo!

 

[Yuna-Maria]

^^ Innuendo!

Giggity-giggity-giggity-giggity-goo!
OHH-RIIIIGHT!

 

[St. Viers]

^^double entendre, more classy than regular innuendo. At least 2 chars higher in the comeback tiers...

oh, and somehow I've gotten like 200 posts since...the weekend, scary >_<

 

[Ratherion]

Oh hey, so what's DK's position atm? He's rising pretty fast, he might even outpace De3 for the highest teir heavyweight.

 

[philbobjoe]

I assume that you meant second best, because Snake pretty much has cornered the best heavy-weight title.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Oh hey, so what's DK's position atm? He's rising pretty fast, he might even outpace De3 for the highest teir heavyweight.

He's mid or upper-mid on most lists. I'd give him upper-mid. He's freakin' incredible.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Upper-mid, same here. A small discussion like a page ago if you need reasons.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If I'm correct, DK only has slightly average matchups... what helps him is WHO he matches up well against.

 

[Fire!]

He's mid or upper-mid on most lists. I'd give him upper-mid. He's freakin' incredible.

Over Ike????

No way, Ike is better on all levels, approaching, airs, FS...


The only thing that DK is better in is that he has MUCH less lag then other heavies

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Over Ike????

No way, Ike is better on all levels, approaching, airs, FS...


The only thing that DK is better in is that he has MUCH less lag then other heavies

You actually consider Final Smashes when you judge a character?
Wow, your argument has no merit. None, just for that.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I don't really keep up with this thread at all, but I just wanted to share a video with ya'll. I was under the impression a few weeks ago that Samus was pure balls, having very few redeeming qualities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig

After I saw that, I completely changed my mind. Samus has more potential than I initially thought. Since everyone here still seems to think like I used to, I thought that video might change some minds ^_^

EDIT: I just watched a new video from that user that I never knew was up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0A7b-r1lqs
Falcon isn't that bad, but that video isn't enough to convince me he's actually good. Although those Japanese were doing some interesting things. It looked like TL had a chaingrab on Falcon, and Falcon's up-tilt was used as an edgeguard against TL's tether... and it worked rather well. Hm...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

from what I can tell, that samus player was better than that ROB player and still lost. True samus isn't awful, but did you SEE how much trouble she had landing a kill blow?

 

[Downshift]

To everyone who's putting Zelda at the High Tier, are you saying she's that good despite her lack of an aerial game, or are you considering her ability to transform into Sheik?
Zelda has an awesome ground game and is very difficult to approach because of her decent priority and strong smash hitboxes and knockback, but her lack of an air game is a huge hindrance for me... especially for someone coming from a Fox main in the N64 game.

Or am I just incompetent and unable to make her fair/bair sweetspots connect every time?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

To everyone who's putting Zelda at the High Tier, are you saying she's that good despite her lack of an aerial game, or are you considering her ability to transform into Sheik?
Zelda has an awesome ground game and is very difficult to approach because of her decent priority and strong smash hitboxes and knockback, but her lack of an air game is a huge hindrance for me... especially for someone coming from a Fox main in the N64 game.

Or am I just incompetent and unable to make her fair/bair sweetspots connect every time?

they won't connect every time... but if you hold them back in the begining, if they DO connect, they'll kill at obscenely low damages. same with zelda's Uair.

Her aerial game could use work, but it's not non existent. Even diminished returns lighting kicks are still fatal, so it's always a nice option

 

[SamuraiPanda]

from what I can tell, that samus player was better than that ROB player and still lost. True samus isn't awful, but did you SEE how much trouble she had landing a kill blow?

IMO, that is more of a problem of the player than the character. The player was amazing with Samus, yes, but he didn't use some very effective strategies and attacks. Things like Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, Zair, Up Smash, and Utilt were rare if not completely absent. He can try to save the Dtilt for the KO at close range and the Bair for the KO at mid-range. I don't know her dash attack very well, but IIRC, its not bad a KOing, but he used it effectively throughout so its better for him to not save that.

Don't get me wrong, that Samus player was probably the best I've seen. But the massive room for improvement on top of that is what made me think she had potential.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I don't really keep up with this thread at all, but I just wanted to share a video with ya'll. I was under the impression a few weeks ago that Samus was pure balls, having very few redeeming qualities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig

After I saw that, I completely changed my mind. Samus has more potential than I initially thought. Since everyone here still seems to think like I used to, I thought that video might change some minds ^_^

Hot DANG. That's an amazing match. The Samus was a little too focused on damage and too little on KO IMO though.
Also, her dash attack doesn't knock back very well, but if it hits, it's very hard for the opponent to avoid being hit by a Screw Attack immediately after.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I talked to Wes about Samus recently and even he said that there is only so much spam you can throw at your opponent, before they get in your face and just mess you up.

And I agree.

Samus isn't the worst.

But she certainly isn't good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

IMO, that is more of a problem of the player than the character. The player was amazing with Samus, yes, but he didn't use some very effective strategies and attacks. Things like Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, Zair, Up Smash, and Utilt were rare if not completely absent. He can try to save the Dtilt for the KO at close range and the Bair for the KO at mid-range. I don't know her dash attack very well, but IIRC, its not bad a KOing, but he used it effectively throughout so its better for him to not save that.

Don't get me wrong, that Samus player was probably the best I've seen. But the massive room for improvement on top of that is what made me think she had potential.

that's probably true. I think what that samus proved was that samus, as a character has some fantastic strategies for applying damage to her foes. We already know she has KO potential, we just need to see someone's playstyle which can combine these attributes, and see how well it can be implimented in high level play.

the brilliance of those missiles was that they hit so late, that even a charcter capable of reflection couldn't get them back to at the samus. and the Zair was a great spacer. I really think samus could prove to be a formidable foe if those strategies can hold up against stiff competition.

my real question is, how hard would it be to say "screw the damage" and rush through her missile wall?

 

[Tien2500]

from what I can tell, that samus player was better than that ROB player and still lost. True samus isn't awful, but did you SEE how much trouble she had landing a kill blow?

I also think the Samus player was better than the ROB. But still the Samus player showed some very excellent techniques. Not enough to really prove anything conclusively but enough to offer a glimmer of hope at least. By the way... when you saw that Samus did anyone else think that she's playing exactly as if it were a metroid game?

As for Zelda I don't think she needs an air game that much. She's at her best when defending against approaches so she doesn't really need to go airbrne that often. Her aerials are best used sparingly as surprise attacks. Her aerials should usually be fresh and can be great for surprise kills.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

when you saw that Samus did anyone else think that she's playing exactly as if it were a metroid game?

Hahaha, that's EXACTLY what I thought!

 

[Grunt]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ5NL8Gr1Ig

After I saw that, I completely changed my mind. Samus has more potential than I initially thought.

NOOB! 1 match dusnt proove nuthing!
j/k...

 

[Tien2500]

As for the Falcon video I wasn't really blown away. The Falcon player was very good but I think the Toon Link was a little off when off the air and allowed some kills that really shouldn't have been.

The thing people have to realize before getting so defensive against (predicted) low tier characters is that low tier in Brawl isn't the same as low tier in Melee. So far none of the characters in brawl seem as hopeless to me as Melee G&W/Mewtwo/Pichu etc.

 

[Koga]

Honestly, The more and more tournies i go to and see more of snake, the less impresed i'm becomming with him.

I see that he has horrible matchups with everyone not named meta knight, his "controls" just don't cut it Vs the likes of Falco, Wolf, pit, or anyone else near the top.

I feel like all his early sucess has just been popularit+hype. I mean seriously, he throws some grenades that get caught and tossed back at him while marth pokes at him with is fair and ftilt while snake tries that Grenade sheild stuff that just fails. other characters just poke his shield with projectiles.

pretty much if snake shields while you approach him you just airdodge back and throw out some projectiles till you get an opening and then have your way with him. He's not fast enough to keep up when i see him play other top characters.

 

[Tenki]

I also think the Samus player was better than the ROB. But still the Samus player showed some very excellent techniques. Not enough to really prove anything conclusively but enough to offer a glimmer of hope at least. By the way... when you saw that Samus did anyone else think that she's playing exactly as if it were a metroid game?

lol! That guy might be on to something.

 

[rm88]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but what do you guys think of Peach? I think she'll end up being mid tier.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Here's a little guess as to what the top and high tiers are based on the current metagame, and they are in order:

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Game & Watch
Wolf
Toon Link
Pikachu
Donkey Kong