Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
I still believe as the Metagame evolves for Brawl, and people get better at this game, Ike will slowly and slowly get worse as a tournament character, simply because like you said, he's predictable.
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Well, being predictable and being easily dealt with is two different animals here. I mean, people say G&W is predictable, but he's still difficult to play against. Obviously Ike isn't as good as G&W, and being predictable hurts a lot, but Ike actually does have options, making him just versatile enough not to suck completely. He's no super star, but I'd say tournament viable at least.I still believe as the Metagame evolves for Brawl, and people get better at this game, Ike will slowly and slowly get worse as a tournament character, simply because like you said, he's predictable.
Okay. I'm going to have a breakdown.i think most ppl have it wrong. as i main marth, im sad to say i think he's in lower high tier. fox isnt all that great and neither is sonic bcuz he lacks strength. in my opinion, the best characters in order are king dedede, meta knight, snake, falco, and ike. just my opinion
This list looks about as good as it's going to get for now though I am sort of thinking Jigglypuff should be replaced with Sonic. Sonic has just about nothing going for him while Jigglypuff still has her same floaty chase capabilities.Top:
Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)
High:
Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)
Middle:
Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)
Low:
Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)
Bottom:
Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)
Another thing about Sonic is his lack of range. His regular smash attack is so short.This list looks about as good as it's going to get for now though I am sort of thinking Jigglypuff should be replaced with Sonic. Sonic has just about nothing going for him while Jigglypuff still has her same floaty chase capabilities.
-If you're good, you shouldn't be getting hit, and also the light weight doesn't matter as much as you can still stand up to about 170% before you're finally dead no matter what, which is a vast improvement over Melee by far.Still, it doesn't change the fact that.
-She is THE lightest fighter in the game
-While her aerial game is still good, many other character can do as good if not better and are better in many other areas
-Bar none, probably the worst Ground game in Brawl
-Horrible matchups across the board
-Aside from WOPs, has trouble KOing and racking up damage (Before you bring up MK, he racks up damage at a much faster pace, it balances out)
-Below average to Poor tourney standing to back up those matchups.
QFTcant... resist...
sonic stutter stepped fsmash is one of the longer ranged fsmashes in the game.
I think the only characters who outrange him on a fsmash are
ganon, CF, Mario (stutter stepped)
Link, Lucario, Olimar, Shiek, Wolf, Zamus, Ike
if you care to prove otherwise, please go and learn how to do it properly and youll find it easily outranges things like marth, pikachu etc fsmash.
This is a very accurate tier list. The top tier especially. Only a few things I want to say:Top:
Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)
High:
Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)
Middle:
Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)
Low:
Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)
Bottom:
Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)
You tell me everyone can stand toe to toe with her aerial, and yet after all my games with tournament players, I have yet to see anyone even come close to rivaling its power. Maybe if you're a numbskull you'll try to do something like in Melee and just spam the same move, or just keep charging at someone, but if you actually think things out, you have quite a bit of power. Pound also breaks through almost everything as I stated before, so even if you're fighting a hefty competitor, you still have something to assist you. I dunno, argue all you want, I've been proven enough about her power, but most people seem to rather stick to what they're told then actually taking new things into account. Makes me happier to see her on the bottom tier, as more people will expect losing to her.Even if her ariel game is great, that doesn't change the fact that many characters can stand toe to toe w/ her in the air. What's left for her after that? Her ground? No. Why? Because pretty much every character outclasses her there.
DURR NO, TOURNAMENT RESULTS THIS EARLY PROVE OTHERWISE, AND ALWAYS WILL!!!!!!Wario will eventually work his way into that top tier as well. Just wait and see, once people learn how to use him correctly, he will work his way up there...
There were so many contradictions in this post that I almost passed out-If you're good, you shouldn't be getting hit, and also the light weight doesn't matter as much as you can still stand up to about 170% before you're finally dead no matter what, which is a vast improvement over Melee by far.
-Other characters may have an aerial game, but hers is by far the most lethal, especially considering how easily you can trap people with her moves in the air.
-Her ground game isn't actually that bad, and I am surprised everyone here thinks that. While her air game is obviously better, her ground moves can still be used effectively, and they all have killing potential. They may not do much damage, but they definitely push you far, especially her down smash.
-Horrible matchups across the board? What? Are we talking just random statistics people have taken? I've seen Jigglypuff take even some of the best fighters by surprise, but I dunno, I guess basing things just off two or three tournaments that have taken place within a month is as accurate as you can get right now.
-No trouble racking up damage, as I had posted. You can easily rack people up with some quick air movements mixed with the ground, and a vast majority of her moves kill. I don't know what you're talking about here.
-This doesn't matter at all, and I don't get why any of you consider this a valuable argument. Someone playing in a tournament doesn't determine how good that character is, especially because Brawl hasn't even been out for long.
Not so. I'm completely aware of Jigglypuff's game. However, i'm trying to say that comparitavely, she's not all that great. Besides I did not say everyone can stand toe to toe w/ her air game. I mean, saying Gannondorf can beat Jiggs in the air is absurd. You can say all this stuff about Jiggs (which is probably true) but, in the end, it just doesn't amount to all that much. She's a mediocre character.You tell me everyone can stand toe to toe with her aerial, and yet after all my games with tournament players, I have yet to see anyone even come close to rivaling its power. Maybe if you're a numbskull you'll try to do something like in Melee and just spam the same move, or just keep charging at someone, but if you actually think things out, you have quite a bit of power. Pound also breaks through almost everything as I stated before, so even if you're fighting a hefty competitor, you still have something to assist you. I dunno, argue all you want, I've been proven enough about her power, but most people seem to rather stick to what they're told then actually taking new things into account. Makes me happier to see her on the bottom tier, as more people will expect losing to her.
You can escape wario and squirt;les moves just as you ecape jiglypuffs. She can pressure moreso than squirtle and wario but it only takes effect outside of the stage where she is at her best.You can easily airdodge out of her moves, so she can't combo, pressure, and trap like you think she can.
his grab range is good.On another note, Sonic is definitely better than Jigglypuff....despite the fact that his range sucks,
Thats quite insulting especially to myself a Sonic main.He's not good, but better than Jigglypuff. In fact, Sonic is in the "better than Jigglypuff" tier.
Sonics ground game is somewhat poor in comparison to other characters.EDIT: His air speed might suck, but he makes up for it with his ground speed, which compensates to some extent. Also, ground games>>>>>air games, another reason why Jiggs sucks and Sonic is better =3
He's going to stay in Mid-Tier. While what you say may be true, it is not as extreme or by definition "lol, broken" like many character traits of characters in the high and top tiers.2. Lucario is also going to be high tier for sure. He is super floaty making him hard to kill. His aerials are godly, both his side and down airs. He gets stronger the more he takes damage, and he has the best roll in the game. Trust me on this, he's High tier.
Best one so far!Top:
Snake (Tied with MK)
Meta Knight (Tied with Snake)
Marth (Sakurai apparently forgot to nerf him)
Mr. Game & Watch (From bottom to top. A Smash success story)
Falco (Chain grabs)
R.O.B. (Just because many hate him doesn't make him low tier)
High:
Toon Link (Fast, strong, and an easily spammable projectile)
Pikachu (Many more buffs than nerfs)
Wolf (He's a freaking beast)
Ice Climbers (Chain grabs. Nana's less of an idiot)
King Dedede (Amazing recovery for a heavyweight)
Olimar (He's deadly, but his awful recovery keeps him out of the top tier)
Kirby (Kirby and G&W were the most buffed characters)
Pit (Due to his great recovery, he's a pain in the *** to kill)
Luigi (Pretty **** good. For the first time, he's outdone his big brother)
Middle:
Wario (Unpredictable, which probably explains his many tourney wins)
Diddy Kong (Like Wario, he's a pretty crazy character)
Bowser (Slow running, but he has fast attacks)
Lucas (He would be in high tier, but...chain grabs)
Zamus (Opponents are too distracted by her, and just look at her like the perverts they are. She's good anyway)
Zelda (Shiek was nerfed, Zelda was buffed)
Fox (He was nerfed, but at least he's a real character instead of the broken Melee monster)
Yoshi (His Up+B has recovery properties. He's pretty decent this time around)
Donkey Kong (Better, but still not outstanding)
Ness (Powerful, especially in the air. But, chain grabs)
Lucario (I once thought he would be bottom tier. How wrong I was)
Mario (He's a solid character, but most of his peers were buffed, so...)
Peach (A godess in the air, but she's a bit too light, and her vertical recovery is lackluster)
Low:
Pokemon Trainer (The Pokemon aren't half bad, but the stamina thing sort of killed PT)
Ike (He's strong, but his popularity early on gave people a chance to exploit his every flaw)
Samus (Nerfed. Plain and simple)
Shiek (See Zelda for reason)
Sonic (He's fast, but his attacks are TOO SLOW!)
Link (For good character, see Toon Link)
Bottom:
Jigglypuff (Unlike everyone else, she's no harder to KO. At least she has the WOP)
Ganondorf (He's terribly slow, and he has awful recovery)
Captain Falcon (The knee was nerfed, and he has no advantage matchups)
we can only wish...It's possible that he could be high, and it's possible that Snake won't top top forever.
While you can airdodge out of Wario's and Squirtle's movements, their weight makes them fall to the ground faster (good) and their jerkiness makes them a lot harder to predict. Because of this, Squirtle can pressure with aerials and then grab, and Wario can bite anyway.You can escape wario and squirt;les moves just as you ecape jiglypuffs. She can pressure moreso than squirtle and wario but it only takes effect outside of the stage where she is at her best.
Overall yes squirtle and Wario outdo her but in her speciality of outside the stage she can be deadly.
Only part that I disagree with honestly.
his grab range is good.
his speed more than makes up for his range and his homing attack has pretty good range.
Its inaccurate though =(
Thats quite insulting especially to myself a Sonic main.
What about his three moves with invincibility frames?
His combo ability, his gimping ability, his great amount of approaches?
The only thing sonic really lacks is priority which hurts him since he is forced to be unpredictable in order to minimize clashing of attacks.
His moves link up well to each other.
Far better than jigglypuff thank you very much.
Sonics ground game is somewhat poor in comparison to other characters.
air games>>>>ground games, disagree, go speak to Marth. The amount of options for the best aerial character outweighs those of a pure ground character.
Furthermore Sonic's aerial speed is actually among the best. Go look at the informational chart on aerial speed.
not to mention he can use his spindashes to moves through the air almost as quickly as Wario, sometimes surpassing via SJC.
Use Sonic a bit more, he really requires alot more time to understand than other characters due to the high learning curve.
It really makes him difficult to figure out as compared to characters like Snake who are easily defined.
Yes which is why I mentioned that overall their aerial game is better because of how quickly they can get back in the air.While you can airdodge out of Wario's and Squirtle's movements, their weight makes them fall to the ground faster (good) and their jerkiness makes them a lot harder to predict. Because of this, Squirtle can pressure with aerials and then grab, and Wario can bite anyway.
Nah don't worry I know what you mean.Marth has somewhat of a good ground game, too. A good ground game is better than an equally good air game....if that makes any sense without being a contradiction.
True but spacing in the air is more easily done on the ground. This is especially true with the removal of wavedashing and L canceling which has weakened ground game and offensive games overall. As well as the lack of dash dancing it can be difficult to move quickly about and hav a safe approach.Being on the ground simply means more control. The reason ground games are good is because it's generally easier to make safe approaches and space without being punished, and you can grab, making shields much less effective. Marth is the exception, since he has shield breaker and since his aerial game is very safe for the most part anyway. I'm not saying that air games are pointless at all, I mean squirtle's ground game is pretty meh, but his air speed and small size make up for it. Wario's ground game isn't bad, and his air game is awesome, not to mention you can chomp people from the air if you gotta.
Not too sure but he is actually in the top 5 in air speed.I don't remember Sonic's airspeed to be very good, if it was he would be far better than he is now. His spin dash might make his aerial speed faster, but you don't have utter control over your movements like Wario and Squirtle.
Trust me once you figure out how to exploit his attacks, he can approach characters that are normally difficult like Wolf.I know how to use Sonic, although I'm not very good with him in practice. I picked Sonic because someone ELSE was ****ting on him, and I knew he's a lot better than Jigglypuff.
All of this makes sense, except that the absense of wavedashing doesn't weaken ground games or offensive games, but rather what is needed to succeed in those areas. With wavedashing, characters with less traction can compensate for lack of range by attacking/grabbing while sliding, much like the stutter step does, and characters with range and less traction had a great advantage *cough**Marth**cough*. WDing also makes predicting a ground game that much harder. Without wavedashing, very fast characters and characters with a lot of range are the characters that succeed on the ground and consequently on offense. That's why Meta Knight (ranged tilts, quick smashes, good grabs backed up by good ground speed) and Bowser (obscene range on tilts without much lag, decent spacing with flame breath) have such good ground games.Yes which is why I mentioned that overall their aerial game is better because of how quickly they can get back in the air.
The only time Jiggly's aerial game exceeds their own is outside of the stage over the pit of doom.
On the stage easily squirtle and Wario. I just like the puffballs air game ove rthe edge since I am used to chasing.
Nah don't worry I know what you mean.
True but spacing in the air is more easily done on the ground. This is especially true with the removal of wavedashing and L canceling which has weakened ground game and offensive games overall. As well as the lack of dash dancing it can be difficult to move quickly about and hav a safe approach.
In the air you aren't restricted in your movements on the ground and while you are more vulnerable, the amount of options available to you as well as the approaches do make up for it.
Not too sure but he is actually in the top 5 in air speed.
Trust me once you figure out how to exploit his attacks, he can approach characters that are normally difficult like Wolf.
If only he had more priority =(
yes which is what i mean.All of this makes sense, except that the absense of wavedashing doesn't weaken ground games or offensive games, but rather what is needed to succeed in those areas. With wavedashing, characters with less traction can compensate for lack of range by attacking/grabbing while sliding, much like the stutter step does, and characters with range and less traction had a great advantage *cough**Marth**cough*. WDing also makes predicting a ground game that much harder. Without wavedashing, very fast characters and characters with a lot of range are the characters that succeed on the ground and consequently on offense. That's why Meta Knight (ranged tilts, quick smashes, good grabs backed up by good ground speed) and Bowser (obscene range on tilts without much lag, decent spacing with flame breath) have such good ground games.
XD I was gonna point it out but you got there first.Obviously being able to move while using attacks is a distinct advantage over being committed to moving a specific way or not at all on the ground, but the ground is where the approach is for the most part, since the threat of grabbing is always there, and there's a lot more you can do from the ground, including shield, roll, spot dodge, and.....well....walking away =3
EDIT: oops, that's going into defensive game....well, jabs and tilts are pro
Not exactly. Peach should be in low tier, DK should be higher, move down Kirby and Pit, move up Ness just a bit, move down Yoshi a bit and move up Diddy KongBest one so far!
I think most of his b moves come out slow. Also, the lack of priority hurts him too.How are Sonic's attacks slow?
Jesus people are misinformed.
QFT (again)How are Sonic's attacks slow?
Jesus people are misinformed.
I think most of his b moves come out slow. Also, the lack of priority hurts him too.