Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Mike_Echoes]

Jiggly > Wario for Vertical unless Wario has Waft saved.
Jiggly > Wario for Horizontal unless Wario has his Bike.

- MykE

 

[TehBo49]

Your kidding right? There are many recovery situations where Jigglypuff can recover and Wario can't, and only an idiot would be edgegaurded with Jigglypuff. If you ever fight a good Jigglypuff player in Brawl, your never going to kill them with the abyss. Your comparing Jigglypuff's recovery with a what-if situation with Wario, Wario is indeed better if he has a fully charged fart, a bike, and a second jump, but most of the time he dosn't have that charged fart, or his bike could possibly still be in play on the stage.

If Jigglypuff gets spiked, odds are she's not coming back. Because her recovery is slow, it's easier to intercept. I agree that Wario's is situtational, but most of the time the bike is all he needs. That's why I said they're about even.

 

[Sikarios]

I'm no pro player, but Wario is one of my mains and when I play him I almost NEVER leave the bike on the stage. It's too essential to recovery. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Kholdstare128]

Your kidding right? There are many recovery situations where Jigglypuff can recover and Wario can't, and only an idiot would be edgegaurded with Jigglypuff. If you ever fight a good Jigglypuff player in Brawl, your never going to kill them with the abyss.

Uhh ... not really. Wario can do the reverse Hyrule jump even without the Waft, and if he can do that, he can pretty much recover from anywhere else. He has pretty much no issues recovering, with or without a fully charged Waft. Also, just like a good Jigglypuff won't be edgeguarded, a good Wario will never just leave the bike on the stage, knowing how severely it will hinder his recovery; it's not even a good move to use offensively except as an occasional suprise attack, which is obviously too risky anyway.

 

[Exovel]

Bottom:
Olimar
Luigi
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Link
Donkey Kong

I didn't have many corrections, and then I looked at your "Bottom" Tier. I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY that Olimar and Luigi are on the lowest end of things.

 

[Shark Week]

Not to Wario's extent, no. Your opponent can't see your Wario waft coming if you want it to do anything, for example. Also, Wario's bizarre movements make him rely more on mindgames than many other characters: eg, his odd spinning attacks like spotdodge and nair.
The point is, he still should be in high tier because a tier list is based on who wins tournaments, and take a look at Ankoku's character list, which I know is a bit of a popularity contest but still provides the most accurate list we have to date. Besides, it's not like Wario is a terribly popular character.



Yeah, he really is. I'm sure you prolly just think I'm biased because he's my main, but he really is a good character brought down only by light weight and lack of a projectile.



Please don't explain to me how to use PT, I already use him a lot. Charizard is a good character what with his stuff and other stuff, but you can't use him forever, and if you try, he quickly becomes a not-so-good character. That's what brings down PT, that he can't be used consistently. See my last post for the whole thing on why that's bad.



Unlike Melee Jiggz, he can't WOP as effectively, he has crap recovery, and no rest. He's really more like Brawl's Jiggz than Melee's anyway. Also, using Squirtle usually ends up with the turtle dying hella early, like at 80% from a decent smash attack.



I know all about Ivy. Look back about 50 pages and you'll see me defending her. However, I conceded multiple times that she belongs in low tier, but certainly not bottom tier.



If the Pokemon were separated, which they shouldn't be, Squirtle would be low just because his aerial game doesn't redeem him for his ability to die in two seconds.
Charizard would be mid because he's probably the worst heavy character... Bowser, DK, Dedede, Wolf, and Snake are all better. So he's easily comboed and whatnot, but without as many redeeming qualities.
Ivy would also be low, which you admitted, so I don't really need to debate that.
That seems to average out as upper low to me, I dunno if they teach math where you live.
Plus, Pokemon Trainer, who is a VERY popular character, can't even do well in tournies. That seems like low tier material to me.

wow... i VERY much diagree with most of what you said.

i'll concede that wario could be high tier. i can't see it at all, but i guess it's possible, so i'll let that one go. but honestly, i don't have trouble reading wario.

you still haven't convinced me that kirby belongs in high. you're just kind of sitting there saying "YES HUH HE IS TOO" at me... you know what, why don't you tell me you feel about dk and bowser?

truthfully, the pt's fatigue system has never really affected me that much. i usually either end the match too fast for it to matter, die and autoswitch, or kill them and switch while they're respawning.

you sound like you don't even use squirtle at all. he is light, yes, but he doesn't die that easily... or at least, i don't die that easily. squirtle also has very good comboing ability... but now you're just going to say "NUH UH" at me and just tell me squirtle's awful. you know, most people, when they split the pt up, are putting squirtle in mid or high tier? and you're telling me he's like brawl jigglypuff...

you know, for someone who claims to use pokemon trainer "a lot," you sure do seem to have something against the character. you completely downplay each pokemon's capabilities and exaggerate their weaknesses. it's kind of disingenuous.

and how can you call pt "VERY popular"? i've seen fewer pt's than i've seen yoshis. YOSHIS.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yeah, there's a reason why PT is nearly rock bottom in tourney outing so far......

 

[TehBo49]

you still haven't convinced me that kirby belongs in high.

d-air + b-air WoP = high/high-mid tier

 

[Shark Week]

Yeah, there's a reason why PT is nearly rock bottom in tourney outing so far......

i attribute that to low popularity. i think the character concept and learning curve turns a lot of people off.

d-air + b-air WoP = high/high-mid tier

ah, got it. thanks a ton.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Yeah, there's a reason why PT is nearly rock bottom in tourney outing so far......

Pokemon Trainer could end up like the IC's though, a character that can't be mastered quickly and thus won't kick *** until a pro decides to pick him up.

I could be DEAD wrong though.

 

[penguinman]

I think bias need to be taken away to make a fair tier list.

For example. I like all the characters. Even I know that Ike is mid to low tier and sonic is low tier.

I think you guys should take your bias out of the tiers and make an actual good Tierlist.

well, most people main the character they think is top tier. so the mains arent affecting the tiers it is reverse order.<_<

 

[Jigglymaster]

I've got a feeling that Ness and Lucas are going to be the worst in this game because of 2 things. The new powersheilding and the release grab infinate combo. With the powersheilding in this game you can powersheild all of Ness and Lucas's projectile attack and just move in to attack them, and Ness and Lucas are not very good in close range combat. And with the relase grab that just makes them almost usless in tournaments because people will pick characters that can infinate them just by grabbing them. And with the release grabs there is even a source to prove that they are almost usless in tournaments. Go check the topics in the Ness or Lucas boards and you'll see a topic talking about this from Cort who is a professional player.

 

[The Executive]

Wario is solid top of mid-tier/bottom of high-tier.
--downright bizarre approach
--insane priority aerials
--air grab
--ability to absorb explosives
--three recovery moves (best vertical recover move in game besides C4 jumping)
--heaviness
make for a great character. However, severe lack of range and necessity for outwitting/pressuring your opponent to score hits hold him back from being top-tier or solid high-tier. It all depends on the player (unless you're facing Meta in which case all hope is lost).

 

[SaxDude93]

I've got a feeling that Ness and Lucas are going to be the worst in this game because of 2 things. The new powersheilding and the release grab infinate combo. With the powersheilding in this game you can powersheild all of Ness and Lucas's projectile attack and just move in to attack them, and Ness and Lucas are not very good in close range combat. And with the relase grab that just makes them almost usless in tournaments because people will pick characters that can infinate them just by grabbing them. And with the release grabs there is even a source to prove that they are almost usless in tournaments. Go check the topics in the Ness or Lucas boards and you'll see a topic talking about this from Cort who is a professional player.

While the PK boys have been weakened, there are worse characters than them. Take C. Falcon for example. Falcon has no projectile, no priority, no approach, no kill moves. The PK boys have these. Powersheilded projectile>no projectile. And under your logic, any projectile can be powersheilded easily, minus Fox/Falco lasers. Plus PK users can counter-counterpick Marth/PT. Or they can use the PK boys as "Secondaries" and main someone-else. Then they can use the PK boys as as a very hax counterpick.

 

[TehBo49]

^Yeah, the new chaingrab on them definitely hurts, but I still think they're good enough to manage middle (Lucas) & low (Ness) tier. They definitely aren't the worst in the game (Captain Falcon & Ganondorf have that title pretty much guaranteed).

 

[Ills]

Captain Falcon isn't that bad.

Compared to melee falcon, yes he sucks balls but you're giving him too much credit.

 

[TehBo49]

Compared to everyone else, yes he is.

 

[The Executive]

Captain Falcon isn't that bad.

Compared to melee falcon, yes he sucks balls but you're giving him too much credit.

Mewtwo would sodomize Brawl Failcon mercilessly.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I actually think now the PK boys will land in the Mid Tir area now. definately not high anymore because of the glitch and how it affected their matchups and such, but still Tourney viable characters.

 

[Drik Khaail]

No wai. Ness is bottom tier just because of chain grabbing? PK blasphemy.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I didn't have many corrections, and then I looked at your "Bottom" Tier. I'm sorry, but there is NO WAY that Olimar and Luigi are on the lowest end of things.

I'm not a fan of Olimar's Tether recovery, so I lowered him because of it.
I don't think I put bias in it, but where would u put them in your opinion, and can I get some evidence as to why?

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Jiggs is fine as she used to in Melee! She makes up for her poor verticle recovery by doing rising pound. Which does work in this game. Jigglypuff has a better verticle and horizontal recovery than Wario does. How do you think Jigglypuff does the reverse hyrule jump? Its more than horizontal, and even if Wario could get all the horizontal recovery he could possibly have he still wouldn't make it unless if he had a fully charged fart. Please, please, don't tell me that Jigglypuff has crap recovery. And last time I checked, Jigglypuff still has rest. And you don't have to combo do hit with it anymore. If you try to smash me and I powersheild it with puff I can rest you and you can't do anything about it. If your above 70 your dead. Simple as that. Most kills don't kill till after 100.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYV42reMeQ

waitwut

 

[TehBo49]

I'm not a fan of Olimar's Tether recovery, so I lowered him because of it.
I don't think I put bias in it, but where would u put them in your opinion, and can I get some evidence as to why?

Most people consider Olimar to be high tier for having a great projectile, broken range, broken grabs, & high priority. His awful recovery only just keeps him from being top tier.

Luigi is probably high mid. Aerial priority, a strong f-smash, & an okay projectile make him good (in addition to other things).

Also, your list has Donkey Kong in bottom tier, too. He should be mid due to his huge range & strength.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Based on YouTube, Tournies and my playgroups opinions:
(NO Particular Order Within Groups)

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth

High:
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Dedede
Toon Link
Pit
R.O.B.

Middle:
Olimar
Luigi
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Pikachu
ZSS
Peach
Wario
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Lucas

Low:
Donkey Kong
Ness
Kirby
Mr. Game and Watch
Sonic
Lucario
Bowser
Mario
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Shiek
Samus

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Link

Better? Worse?

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cYV42reMeQ

waitwut

Sonic's looked the best.

 

[MysticKenji]

Based on YouTube, Tournies and my playgroups opinions:
(NO Particular Order Within Groups)

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth

High:
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Dedede
Toon Link
Pit
R.O.B.

Middle:
Olimar
Luigi
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Pikachu
ZSS
Peach
Wario
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Lucas

Low:
Donkey Kong
Ness
Kirby
Mr. Game and Watch
Sonic
Lucario
Bowser
Mario
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Shiek
Samus

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Link

Better? Worse?

It's better but still kinda bad.

G&W, Lucario, Bowser and Diddy in Low Tier?
Link absolute bottom?
Falcon above people?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Also, I'd appreciate it if you guys took a look at my Special Tier list topic on this disscusion forums

 

[hizzlum]

Based on YouTube, Tournies and my playgroups opinions:
(NO Particular Order Within Groups)

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth

High:
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Dedede
Toon Link
Pit
R.O.B.

Middle:
Olimar
Luigi
Ike
Pokemon Trainer
Pikachu
ZSS
Peach
Wario
Zelda
Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Lucas

Low:
Donkey Kong
Ness
Kirby
Mr. Game and Watch
Sonic
Lucario
Bowser
Mario
Diddy Kong
Yoshi
Shiek
Samus

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Link

Better? Worse?

The top tier should be bigger to about 5-6 characters, G&W is top tier, Pit , fox and D3 should be lower, captain falcon is low or bottom tier

 

[PiSToLZ]

here is my tier list no order
Top Tier
Pit
Snake
Meta Knight
Falco
Toon Link
Marth
High Tier
Game and Watch
Dedede
Ike
Zelda
Diddy
Zamus
Donkey
Wolf
Kirby
Olimar
Squirtle
Pikachu
Ice climbers
R.O.B.
Mid Tier
Shiek
Bowser
Charizard
Peach
Wario
Fox
Lucas
Ness
Luigi
Low Tier
Link
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ivysaur
Samus
Bottom Tier
Sonic
Yoshi
Ganon
Captain Falcon

Any you dont agree with tell me so i can change it/

 

[Conda]

Ness, GW, DK, Diddy, Mario, Bowser, Lucario, and Kirby low tier? That's ridiculous. Your sources are faulty.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Eh, I like SuperSpeedySonic's Better than mine.

 

[Kiwikomix]

you still haven't convinced me that kirby belongs in high. you're just kind of sitting there saying "YES HUH HE IS TOO" at me... you know what, why don't you tell me you feel about dk and bowser?

DK and Bowser are lower high or upper mid tier. What, you think they belong in low or something? Learn to play the game.

Fine, I'll go into Kirby into depth, just for you, who clearly knows almost everything about the game.
Kirby is of decent speed and priority. Many of his attacks have very good range, such as his f-smash and improved aerial hammer. He has great recovery so that even when he's knocked off the stage with his light weight, he will usually come back. He doesn't have a projectile but if his opponent does, he can just steal it from them and cancel it out, with the exception of Ivysaur (in which case he gets bullet seed so I wouldn't be complaining), Yoshi, and the Earthbounders. In danger, his jab can cancel out projectiles anyway. His feet are actually counted as a disjoint so they have good priority. Dair doesn't spike but can very effectively keep opponents off the stage anyway, not to mention racking up damage well on the ground. He ducks low enough to avoid most projectiles. The lag on his hammer and stone have been decreased, and his stone now has stun damage that hurts opponents near him similar to Yoshi's downB stars. He has enormous grab combos on heavier characters that usually rack up 30-40% at least. He can stick his opponents under the stage by inhaling them, leaving them to flounder a while before falling to their death, except in characters that have recovery as good as his. When things are looking tough for him, he can just inhale and Kirbycide. In theory, a good Kirby could just get ahead by one stock and Kirbycide the game to an end.

That good enough for you?

 

[PiSToLZ]

Does anyone like mine?

 

[Mike_Echoes]

I said I do

 

[PiSToLZ]

i know you do but im asking for everyone else

 

[hizzlum]

By tournament wins MK and snake have proven to be the best, but also G&W is consired a top tier character is just below them, then for the bottom of the top tier most knowledgebale people have been saying falco, marth, wolf(although seems to be going down in many tiers with falco rising beacuse of the bird's newfound potencial), and toon link and D# are candidates, but will probably be the best in the high tier. Thats Just what I have been seeing in many tiers lists and tourney results.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yep, that sounds right. Albeit I'd add ROB to that list as well

 

[Dream Land Works]

Here is my list with a mix of tournament results, my personal thoughts, and other peoples thoughts.

Top Tier

1. Snake
2. Meta Knight

High Tier

3. Mr. Game & Watch
4. Falco
5. ROB
6. Marth
7. Zero Suit Samus
8. King Dedede
9. Pikmin & Olimar

Middle Tier

10. Toon Link
11. Ice Climbers
12. Pikachu
13. Wario
14. Pokemon Trainer*
15. Fox
16. Pit
17. Donkey Kong
18. Diddy Kong
19. Wolf
20. Ness
21. Kirby
22. Lucas
23. Luigi
24. Ike
25. Mario
26. Zelda
27. Lucario
28. Yoshi
29. Peach

Low Tier

30. Link
31. Pokemon Trainer*
32. Sheik
33. Captain Falcon
34. Sonic
35. Jigglypuff

Bottom Tier

36. Bowser
37. Samus
38. Ganondorf

*Pokemon Trainer is very able to switch from 31 to 14 on my list. For now though, due to how people have been doing with him, he is at 31.

Please keep in mind that this list is likely to change when I see these characters gameplay improve greatly by a good amount of competitive players.

 

[SquallLion90]

How come there are so many people here who have less than 10 posts commenting on who is the best? You haven't even been playing hard for a month and you want to judge the competitive potential of 35+ characters?

You are twisted.

Since when does the amount of post someone has reflect their knowledge of the game? Some people on here have been playing the original game, Melee, and Brawl ever since they came out, but just so happen to join this forum at the time they did. Since someone has a low amount of post doesn't mean they don't know anything about the game. Why would you even think that?

 

[Shark Week]

DK and Bowser are lower high or upper mid tier. What, you think they belong in low or something? Learn to play the game.

Fine, I'll go into Kirby into depth, just for you, who clearly knows almost everything about the game.
Kirby is of decent speed and priority. Many of his attacks have very good range, such as his f-smash and improved aerial hammer. He has great recovery so that even when he's knocked off the stage with his light weight, he will usually come back. He doesn't have a projectile but if his opponent does, he can just steal it from them and cancel it out, with the exception of Ivysaur (in which case he gets bullet seed so I wouldn't be complaining), Yoshi, and the Earthbounders. In danger, his jab can cancel out projectiles anyway. His feet are actually counted as a disjoint so they have good priority. Dair doesn't spike but can very effectively keep opponents off the stage anyway, not to mention racking up damage well on the ground. He ducks low enough to avoid most projectiles. The lag on his hammer and stone have been decreased, and his stone now has stun damage that hurts opponents near him similar to Yoshi's downB stars. He has enormous grab combos on heavier characters that usually rack up 30-40% at least. He can stick his opponents under the stage by inhaling them, leaving them to flounder a while before falling to their death, except in characters that have recovery as good as his. When things are looking tough for him, he can just inhale and Kirbycide. In theory, a good Kirby could just get ahead by one stock and Kirbycide the game to an end.

That good enough for you?

first of all, yes, that sounds good for low-high, thank you for explaining.

second, i don't think bowser and dk are low. i think they're both high-mid/low-high. i asked you because i wanted to hear your opinion on those characters, since your defense of kirby had me interested in what you thought of some of the other mid-or-high debated characters.

third, there's no need to be so aggressive. among other things, you just assumed you knew what i thought of dk and bowser and then launched an insult based on that... it's kind of immature. i'm not attacking you, you shouldn't be attacking me.