Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Since when does the amount of post someone has reflect their knowledge of the game? Some people on here have been playing the original game, Melee, and Brawl ever since they came out, but just so happen to join this forum at the time they did. Since someone has a low amount of post doesn't mean they don't know anything about the game. Why would you even think that?

This is only because experience tells us that low posts counts mean less experience in the game. Its not always true, but it is 99% of the time. We only go with our past experiences on that. When new people show to be useful and good posters, they are quickly respected, but they need to PROVE that first. Tier lists aren't a good place to start. =P

 

[hizzlum]

Yep, that sounds right. Albeit I'd add ROB to that list as well

Your right, I forgot ROB, he along with D3 and toonlink will proabaly be the high part of the high tier and Pikachu maybe up there if some good brawler shows us his true potencial like he had in the original

 

[Wyvern]

Okay, I've been occasionally peeking into this and other tier discussions, and there's something I have to ask. What does everyone have against Link?

It seems like about half of the tier lists I see proposed have Link in the bottom tier, usually only two or three spots away from the absolute last spot. Maybe I'm somewhat biased for having been a Link main since the very beginning of Melee, but this just seems crazy to me. There has never been a time where I've been playing and thought to myself, "Man, Link is absolutely terrible when it comes to _______". Except maybe recovery. He has good range, good power, huge disjointed hitboxes, and a very useful and versatile projectile game in a situation that generally allows for successful defensive play. He's always felt like a pretty solid character to me.

I mean, he's by no means excellent, obviously. His recovery does suck, he's a little on the sluggish side, and he doesn't really have any huge, blatant advantages (aside from maybe the projectiles in certain matchups). But still, I feel like he must be at least upper-low tier, maybe breaking into mid tier depending on how things work out. I really can't imagine Link being called one of the worst couple of characters in the game, unless the gaps between the middle, low, and bottom tiers are really, really small.

I'm wondering if the bias against him might be caused by most of the would-be good Link players jumping ship and switching to Young Link when they heard he would turn out better, leaving few skilled Links appearing in tournaments. But that's not Link's fault.

 

[Grunt]

unless the gaps between the middle, low, and bottom tiers are really, really small.

That's pretty much it. the gaps are so small, instead of placing characters in tiers based on groups of usefulness, they are broken into a bell curve sort of dispersal.
XTop-YHigh-Zmid-Ylow-Xbottom . maybe 4-8-15-8-4.

Where as melee was like
2-4-6-6-8 spread. so obviously bottom had too many disadvantages for them to move between tiers easily.

 

[1HKO]

Wyvern I have asked myself the same question about Jiggz and Mario however I have just recently figured it out. You know when something is broken in an RPG that so called "Pure" toons with all their points invested in one skill are viable. They are viable not because they have no weaknesses, they are viable because what they excel at is favored against what they could have otherwise chosen to excel at. If your character is the best at something then it will probably not be mid<->low tier however if your character is average at everything then it will not have that gaurantee. Having one max power skill is easily beaten by having two half power skills as they will switch to their backup if they can't beat you with their primary. Thus those lucky enough to be a favorable yet not best choice at 2 things are placed around the same level as the "Pures".
IE Link may have a disjointed hitboxes however he doesn't have a backup plan against ike, marth, olimar, or pit. They all have the backup plans of better priority, fair rush, easily spammable projectiles, and easily spammable projectiles with great recovery respectively.

 

[Wyvern]

IE Link may have a disjointed hitboxes however he doesn't have a backup plan against ike, marth, olimar, or pit. They all have the backup plans of better priority, fair rush, easily spammable projectiles, and easily spammable projectiles with great recovery respectively.

I don't really see where you're coming from here. I find that Link stands up pretty favorably to Ike, Marth, and Pit.

Ike can be easily controlled by projectiles, as he has no real answer to them and is way too slow to just rush through them. You can force him to make unfavorable approaches and then punish his lag.

Projectiles are similarly helpful against Marth, though since Marth is much faster (and better in general), it's not as drastic. Link doesn't have a range or priority advantage anymore, but he still partially cancels out Marth's, and that's almost as good. I'm sure it's still not even, but it's a good fight, and Link holds up quite well considering that Marth is way up there on the tiers. It sure as hell doesn't feel like one of the best character beating mercilessly on the worst character, that's for sure. Also, when Marth is recovering, Link can sometimes do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKNH03XT0J8 (2:25 especially). And that's just hilarious.

With Pit, you do have the problem of the arrows preventing effective use of Link's bow or boomerang. But it's not exactly hard for Link (or anybody) to advance through Pit's arrows (dash, powershield, repeat), and once you're in close combat, Link has a significant range advantage over Pit's toothpicks.

I don't fight against too many Olimars (or against Links as Olimar), but Link probably does have the disadvantage there. He's obviously going to have some bad matchups. It's not like I'm trying to put him in the high tier, here...I'm just saying he's not bad enough to be at the absolute bottom.

The point is that these are mostly upper-tier characters, and Link has the tools to handle a lot of them. Maybe not enough to be called a counterpick or anything, and definitely not to the point where he's a superior character in general, but enough to be viable. More viable than I would expect from the bottom tier.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

H

30. Link
32. Sheik
33. Captain Falcon
37. Samus

This made me cry tears.
There is no way that Link is better than Sheik and Samus, and no way Captain Falcon is better than freaking ANYONE with the possible exception of Ganondorf.

 

[The_Dyne]

Lol at Sonic worse than CF. Seriously though, I cry at how much worse he is...

 

[Browny]

time to discuss misconceptions

IMO

overrated tier:
Zelda
Dedede
Fox
diddy

underrated tier:
Lucario
Link
Ness (not counting CG)

yeah

 

[Blackbelt]

time to discuss misconceptions

IMO

overrated tier:
Zelda
Dedede
Fox
diddy

underrated tier:
Lucario
Link
Ness (not counting CG)

yeah

You forgot the Pokemon Trainer in the underrated tier, but that aside, I agree with the enitre underrated tier.

 

[1HKO]

I like where you are coming from Wyvern! Excellent points and as you stated it does not take much to avoid the attributes of the chars I listed.
You should be aware that even though it does take very little effort to avoid those tactics that effort is what puts you on the defensive and them on a rampage. Link is what I call a high negative bias char in that he has so many haters (Lobelia Mk. IV I'm looking at you) that you will never have an intelligent discussion and must revert to beating on them severely in game(a great anger sink BTW). I know what it feels like (Mario/Jiggz main myself), however those are the only reasons I can think of off the top of my head why he isn't top-mid tier(or Jiggz for that matter).
BTW nice vid
@Blackbelt:
PT is overrated until he ditches IVsaur at least.

 

[One_With_Sumthing]

I actually suck at stuff like this, but here's my attempt. [Characters in the same tier are in no particular order]
Great
Snake; Meta Knight; Mr. G&W; ROB; Marth; Dedede; Pikman & Olimar; Toon Link; Wolf; Wario; Diddy Kong; Ike
Good
Lucario; Falco; Zero Suit Samus; Pikachu; Pokemon Trainer; Pit; Fox; Ness; Kirby; Lucas; Luigi; Zelda; Peach; Link; Sheik; Samus
Not so good
Ice Climbers; Donkey Kong; Mario; Yoshi; Captain Falcon; Jigglypuff; Bowser; Samus; Ganandorf

Feel free to tell me how ******** the list is, and what needs to be switched, changed, etc.
Jeez, this takes longer to make than I expected. ><

 

[1HKO]

I actually suck at stuff like this, but here's my attempt. [Characters in the same tier are in no particular order]
Great
Snake; Meta Knight; Mr. G&W; ROB; Marth; Dedede; Pikman & Olimar; Toon Link; Wolf; Wario(should be in good IMHO); Diddy Kong; Ike
Good
Lucario; Falco; Zero Suit Samus; Pikachu; Pokemon Trainer(man I hate him!!!); Pit; Fox; Ness; Kirby; Lucas; Luigi; Zelda; Peach(switch w/ Jiggz); Link(4 once a good placement of Link, congrats on a job well done *cheers*); Sheik; Samus(? isn't she already in the not so good tier?)
Not so good
Ice Climbers; Donkey Kong; Mario; Yoshi; Captain Falcon; Jigglypuff; Bowser; Samus; Ganandorf

Feel free to tell me how ******** the list is, and what needs to be switched, changed, etc.
Jeez, this takes longer to make than I expected. ><

10char....

 

[Grunt]

I actually suck at stuff like this, but here's my attempt. [Characters in the same tier are in no particular order]
Great
Snake; Meta Knight; Mr. G&W; ROB; Marth; Dedede; Pikman & Olimar; Toon Link; Wolf; Wario; Diddy Kong; Ike
Good
Lucario; Falco; Zero Suit Samus; Pikachu; Pokemon Trainer; Pit; Fox; Ness; Kirby; Lucas; Luigi; Zelda; Peach; Link; Sheik; Samus
Not so good
Ice Climbers; Donkey Kong; Mario; Yoshi; Captain Falcon; Jigglypuff; Bowser; Samus; Ganandorf

Feel free to tell me how ******** the list is, and what needs to be switched, changed, etc.
Jeez, this takes longer to make than I expected. ><

Not too bad considering you only have 3 tiers, but Ice Climbers are very good. their chain grabs (if mastered) can be ridiculous and even without, they can rack up damage fast and kill effectively. Falco should also be "Great" since he has good recovery now, best projectile, various approaches / defensive maneuvers, and a good chain grab.
EDIT:
samus is on there twice. go with her first place if i wee you.

 

[1HKO]

*Agrees for the most part with Grunt*
that is all.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

*Agrees for the most part with Grunt*
that is all.

Pokemon #132.

 

[Grunt]

Pokemon #132.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH i get it. Ditto huh?

 

[Yuna-Maria]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH i get it. Ditto huh?

You know it.
Also, I just noticed that 1HKO called me a Link hater, and I have to respond to that.
You're right. I hate Link. Can't stand the guy.
I pan him so much because I don't like that people give him praise he doesn't deserve. This is as a Smash character, mind you. My discrepancies with him as a crappy protagonist will be settled elsewhere...perhaps Gaia, where I can ignite a flame war and watch my e-puppets dance.
But seriously, I think that Link, as a Smash character, offers little in the way of reasons why he should be used. Mostly because of how much better Toon Link is at almost everything Link does. Link is by no means worthless. He has a number of strengths. It's just...seems to me, why wouldn't you just use Toon Link?

 

[Browny]

Go watch some vids in the link boards. i used to main TL (with many others), but after seing what adult link is capable of, hes switched with adult link

 

[hizzlum]

Falco should also be "Great" since he has good recovery now.
EDIT:

Mario's Cape and Pit's shield completley counter falco's terrible recovery if he uses his b-up. Also ANYONE with a simple edgeguard can take advantage of falco less than mediocre recovery by doing a fair to an edgehog, or simple by a speedhog will kill a falco. as for his side b, DOWN TILT. Anyone's down tilt on the edge sets up for an edgehog kill on falco. I do not think he is anything less than top tier, but he is at the bottom of the top tier because FALCO HAS BAD RECOVERY, its too predictable, so little distnace, and it only damages during the first few frames beacuse he doesent do any attack at the end, so you wont get hit if you edgehogand your invincibility is out

 

[Corner-Trap]

Simple revision that I'm about to make to the SRK tier list. I'm trying to get feedback on it first before changing anything.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Game & Watch
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
Ice Climbers

Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Low:
Bowser
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Yoshi
Mario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[Ills]

Mario should at least be bumped to low-mid.

 

[xTNTx]

Three words....

Longhornfan's tier list.

That is all I have to say.

 

[Zema]

Whats with all the Lucario hatin? He's really good IMO.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

Simple revision that I'm about to make to the SRK tier list. I'm trying to get feedback on it first before changing anything.

Top:
Snake
Metaknight

High:
Falco
Game & Watch
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Wolf
Toon Link
Ice Climbers

Mid:
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Lucas
Zelda
Fox
Luigi
Kirby
Ike
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Wario
Lucario
Ness
Squirtle

Low:
Bowser
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Yoshi
Mario
Sonic
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

I agree with this list for the most part, except for these few bugs:


MARIO: He isn't spectacular, but he isn't THAT bad. Bump up to Low at least.

Ike & Lucario: Listen, nobody should be winning MAJOR touneys with that low of a listed character, and guess what: Azen won a couple with them. You may keep them there, but I am skeptical.

Marth: HE IS STILL GOOD OK? HE IS STILL GOOD!!!!!!!!

Toon Link: ONCE AGAIN, BETTER THAN THAT. He is just better than that. End o' story.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Kirby should rise a couple of places: good air game, strong smashes, Psuedo WoP.

What's stopping him?

 

[Codename: Zero]

Mario's Cape and Pit's shield completley counter falco's terrible recovery if he uses his b-up. Also ANYONE with a simple edgeguard can take advantage of falco less than mediocre recovery by doing a fair to an edgehog, or simple by a speedhog will kill a falco. as for his side b, DOWN TILT. Anyone's down tilt on the edge sets up for an edgehog kill on falco. I do not think he is anything less than top tier, but he is at the bottom of the top tier because FALCO HAS BAD RECOVERY, its too predictable, so little distnace, and it only damages during the first few frames beacuse he doesent do any attack at the end, so you wont get hit if you edgehogand your invincibility is out

Falco / Fox's recovery were just as gimpable as they were in melee and they were top tier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'm starting to think the Lucario hate is stemming from the previous hatred of Mewtwo from Melee stemming to Brawl. He's an amazing character, and not much really disputes that. Matchups are good and possibly even great. Character ability and currnet procieved potential is up there. His tourney outings have been impressive. I'd say he's a great canadate for the Top of Mid/Bottom of High.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Also all DDD doubters, if there are even any at this point need to see this Video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L0TGixjbeas

I personally think it's one of the best montages of a heavy character aside from Snake we'll be getting anytime soon.

 

[Shark Week]

all three of the pt's pokemon are underrated.. and why are they even separated in the first place?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Because your FORCED to use all three. It's not a Zelda/Sheik thing where you can stay as one the entire match.

This should be painfully obvious *wacks you in the face*

 

[sHy)(gUy]

so everyone knows the best characters in the game are snake, r.ob., metaknight theres not really much arguing this IMO
the best of the rest right now..

toon link,g&w,falco,marth,wolf,dedede,olimar,pit,diddy,ice climbers,zelda,pikachu

this will probly make up the top/high in some way

mid/low is still pretty wide open

bottom seems like ganon,jiggs,yoshi,falcon

* for the record i think g&w and toonlink could be right up there with the other 3, seems like falco&marth are a notch below and would be the top of high...

and lastly fox is not top/high in this game and never will be...

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Marth and Falco are easily better than TL.

 

[Shark Week]

Because your FORCED to use all three. It's not a Zelda/Sheik thing where you can stay as one the entire match.

This should be painfully obvious *wacks you in the face*

that's what i'm saying... ?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Woops, sorrry, lack of sleep has caused my reading comprehension to go down the drain.

 

[Mike_Echoes]

Also all DDD doubters, if there are even any at this point need to see this Video

http://youtube.com/watch?v=L0TGixjbeas

I personally think it's one of the best montages of a heavy character aside from Snake we'll be getting anytime soon.

I see Dedede in a new light. Frig, I hate watching YouTube Videos, shows how much I suck lol

I'm another to vote for keeping PT as one place. And technically, u can use just one pokemon... don't lose stock lol (Being a smart-*** is sure to get me flamed no?)

 

[Grunt]

i do think 3D is good, but whoever he was playing wasn't very good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@NSS: Mario isn't close to being bottom tier. He has a ledgeguarding game that is actually very very good. I mean really really freaking good. FLUDD stops autograbbing the ledge. Cape STILL gimps people like it did in Melee because it actually has some great pushback.

His approach options aren't too bad when he can spam fireballs and get decent follow options from them. He can't be projectile camped effectively either because of the Cape. These factors alone should put him above the bottom tier when he has approach options, and when he can deal with camping.

Also, his recovery is quite underrated. It's not necessarily amazing in terms of distance, but it's far from being bad. He gets good air time, so he can spam Fireballs and use aerial attacks to deter ledgeguarders. His Cape not only increases the distance of his recovery, but deters projectile spam when he recovers. If you consider one of his weaknesses is being easily gimped, you should think again when it's difficult to approach Mario as he's returning to the stage.

He's better than Peach...at least. Peach doesn't have the ability to handle projectiles like Mario can. Mario also combos better and ledgeguards better than her, and her recovery was nerfed pretty badly, so all in all she's not surviving at long as Mario anyway. While Mario lacks kill options to an extent, so does Peach, so she doesn't have a huge advantage in killing enemies efficiently over Mario, emphasized further by the fact Mario has superior ledgeguarding abilities.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well at the end of the video it showed the people he played were at the very least competent

 

[notftomearth7]

God Tier
Snake
Wolf


High
Wario
R.O.B
Sonic
Charizard


Mid
Fox
Link
Donkey Kong
Squirtle
Samus
Captain Falcon
Luigi
Mario
Bowser
Sheik
Ike
Yoshi
Mr.Game and Watch
Low
Lucario
Ivysaur
Zero Suit Samus
Jigglypuff
Falco
Diddy Kong
Marth
Peach
Zelda
Jigglypuff
Toon Link
Pit



Am I forgetting anyone