Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Repryx]

^^Lolz Owned

-Ciao

 

[Corner-Trap]

I don't need to read about IC's because all I need to do is boot up my wii and check them out. An IC user will know a little bit more about the intricacies of them, but from what I've already seen and played, they're not terribly good, there are many characters that are better.

As far as arguments go, go back and read the last 5 pages, where I perpetually present evidence that shows that Meta Knight is the best character. *******. Try reading before you post, if you can help it. The reason I'm citing M2K is because you clearly won't listen to reason, so maybe you'll listen to someone who gets paid to play the ****ing game.

By the way, I've yet to receive your friend code, and I've yet to hear from anyone in that little BK community you got going.

IC's honestly are useless online because all of their best tactics require such precise timing which is literally impossible with even a second of button lag. Just read the IC's board and you'll see what makes them good, if you're unwilling to do that then I have nothing else to say. And in the last five pages you just said little things that make MK good, which were all already known, but said nothing on why he's the #1 character or why he beats out the other top/high tier, and does M2K consider MK the best character in the game? And my Wifi is not setup, once I get it I'll play you but not with the IC's for the reasons listed above.

EDIT:

For the record MK goes even with all the characters in the top tier except Marth who has a very slight advantage which is like 5.5/4.5 and Snake who has a very good 7/3 advantage.

 

[BDawgPHD]

IC's honestly are useless online because all of their best tactics require such precise timing which is literally impossible with even a second of button lag. Just read the IC's board and you'll see what makes them good, if you're unwilling to do that then I have nothing else to say. And in the last five pages you just said little things that make MK good, which were all already known, but said nothing on why he's the #1 character or why he beats out the other top/high tier, and does M2K consider MK the best character in the game? And my Wifi is not setup, once I get it I'll play you but not with the IC's for the reasons listed above.

EDIT:

For the record MK goes even with all the characters in the top tier except Marth who has a very slight advantage which is like 5.5/4.5 and Snake who has a very good 7/3 advantage.

Wrong. Marth has no such advantage over Meta Knight...in actuality, Marth isn't even all that good. Snake does counter MK very well, but I already said this.

Why don't you show me a vid of a good IC? I don't feel like sifting through all the noobs and ****.

Everything I've said proves that Meta Knight is the best character. He has one bad matchup against Snake, and that's it. I don't feel like repeating myself, especially since you don't comprehend the workings of Brawl.

Once you get your wifi up, come talk to me, and I'll play you with all the characters you think suck....and Meta Knight....and you'll use all the characters that you think are good, and I'll show you how wrong you are.

EDIT: No lagging johns. At least IC's have projectiles that they can spam for a little while to force an air approach, because spamming projectiles is more effective online than it is in person. Chasing and spacing suffer due to lag, and these are the most important aspects of Meta Knight's game, so if I can get by, you can too. ...Actually, that's false.....after all, MK is the best character in the game. Either way, I might even be able to beat you in an IC's ditto, and if I can, then you can't say **** about lag.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Wrong. Marth has no such advantage over Meta Knight...in actuality, Marth isn't even all that good. Snake does counter MK very well, but I already said this.

WTF are you smoking. Marth is amazing! He outranges the majority of the cast, outspeeds half of them, has a great approach, has a great defensive game (as good as it can get without projectiles of course), has a large array of kill moves that can also rack damage, great edgeguarding moves, and a decent recovery. How is Marth bad again?!

Marth vs Metaknight does lean a little bit in Marth's favor, simply because Marth out ranges him and has an amazing defensive game against anyone without projectiles (Up B out of shield is too good). Marth's attacks kill sooner than most characters, so Metaknight doesn't get to make as much use of his amazing recovery.

Everything I've said proves that Meta Knight is the best character. He has one bad matchup against Snake, and that's it. I don't feel like repeating myself, especially since you don't comprehend the workings of Brawl.

Well, Marth has no bad matchups. Does that make him better than Metaknight? In case you haven't noticed, none of the top tiers have anymore than 1 or 2 bad matchups, and the top tiers go pretty much even with each other. Having no bad matchups is not enough to be the best character.

Once you get your wifi up, come talk to me, and I'll play you with all the characters you think suck....and Meta Knight....and you'll use all the characters that you think are good, and I'll show you how wrong you are.

Do you seriously think Wifi proves anything?! Try playing Marth against Toon Link over wifi and see how that goes.

 

[Repryx]

I can chaingrab pretty well with Icees online which is saying alot because I dont use them often.

MK is the best because he counters more characters than Marth or Snake, not because he is unbeatable, that being said MK Cancels sveral moves including his lil hyper tornado which has one of the highest priorty in the game. As far as range goes, MK has the most Proximity Range as most of his attacks cover a nice distance from his body, also his dsmash will K.O more than his Fsmash. Snake you have to actually put in work to use effectively and Marth, you cant just spam Fair, you have to spam them with a purpose.

Sonic Wave has required that I go more in depth. Marth has more range true but MK has more proximity range AND his attacks come out quicker, that combined with almost all of his attacks being multiple hits, help him to get past Marths Fair barrage by simply spamming more than him. Also MKs Hyper Tornado has Higher Priority than all of Marths attacks(save two?) meaning MK is pretty safe to use this move as a spacer between him and Marth, combine this with the face that the attack cancels itself, you have one safe MK. Though MK can single hit kill like Marth he can Uair barrage into up B, or smash you off then FOLLOW you for the kill. That being said Marths Recovery is not as good as MKs as MK can com from being knocked Horizontal and down from the stage w.o being edgehogged. Both Up Bs are kill moves but MK gets another attack from it. Marth Sword dance is nice but its just like MKs AAA lolz. Marth has a hit-counter while MK has a Semi-recovery all purpose counter. Stacked up, MK is the better character. Also MK has more spammable and auto-cancelled moves than Marth.

Icees are good because they have chaingrabs that can continue to like 75% then kill you...Ill try to get vids from people in my area as its happened to me before.

BTW Icees also have and infinite grab combo across the stage and back.

No Lag Johns son!

-Ciao

 

[BDawgPHD]

I can chaingrab pretty well with Icees online which is saying alot because I dont use them often.

MK is the best because he counters more characters than Marth or Snake, not because he is unbeatable, that being said MK Cancels sveral moves including his lil hyper tornado which has one of the highest priorty in the game. As far as range goes, MK has the most Proximity Range as most of his attacks cover a nice distance from his body, also his dsmash will K.O more than his Fsmash. Snake you have to actually put in work to use effectively and Marth, you cant just spam Fair, you have to spam them with a purpose.

Icees are good because they have chaingrabs that can continue to like 75% then kill you...Ill try to get vids from people in my area as its happened to me before.

BTW Icees also have and infinite grab combo across the stage and back.

No Lag Johns son!

-Ciao

Well, ease of use and the quality of a character are two different animals.

...sorry, I had to disagree with something. At least you're using your head

Also, lag johns are for *****es. There are some cases where lag is a problem, such as when playing against a Wolf, and maybe if you have a precise recovery. If that isn't a problem, then nothing else will be.

....but don't go have money matches online :3

 

[Repryx]

**** Mad I had to have the last post BTW I was saying that about my Icees because of him complaining of the Lag with his Icees


Sonic Wave has required that I go more in depth. Marth has more range true but MK has more proximity range AND his attacks come out quicker, that combined with almost all of his attacks being multiple hits, help him to get past Marths Fair barrage by simply spamming more than him. Also MKs Hyper Tornado has Higher Priority than all of Marths attacks(save two?) meaning MK is pretty safe to use this move as a spacer between him and Marth, combine this with the face that the attack cancels itself, you have one safe MK. Though MK can single hit kill like Marth he can Uair barrage into up B, or smash you off then FOLLOW you for the kill. That being said Marths Recovery is not as good as MKs as MK can com from being knocked Horizontal and down from the stage w.o being edgehogged. Both Up Bs are kill moves but MK gets another attack from it. Marth Sword dance is nice but its just like MKs AAA lolz. Marth has a hit-counter while MK has a Semi-recovery all purpose counter. Stacked up, MK is the better character. Also MK has more spammable and auto-cancelled moves than Marth.

From my last post and dedicate to Sonic Wave and any other unbeleiver

-Ciao

 

[Boxob]

um obfiousy mario mariowns caus of teh floods.

But seriously, on this whole Marth vs. MK thing. MK's better than Marth, and he isn't gay like Marth. MetaKnight wins.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Wrong. Marth has no such advantage over Meta Knight...in actuality, Marth isn't even all that good. Snake does counter MK very well, but I already said this.

Why don't you show me a vid of a good IC? I don't feel like sifting through all the noobs and ****.

Everything I've said proves that Meta Knight is the best character. He has one bad matchup against Snake, and that's it. I don't feel like repeating myself, especially since you don't comprehend the workings of Brawl.

Once you get your wifi up, come talk to me, and I'll play you with all the characters you think suck....and Meta Knight....and you'll use all the characters that you think are good, and I'll show you how wrong you are.

EDIT: No lagging johns. At least IC's have projectiles that they can spam for a little while to force an air approach, because spamming projectiles is more effective online than it is in person. Chasing and spacing suffer due to lag, and these are the most important aspects of Meta Knight's game, so if I can get by, you can too. ...Actually, that's false.....after all, MK is the best character in the game. Either way, I might even be able to beat you in an IC's ditto, and if I can, then you can't say **** about lag.

This shows you really don't know anything about the IC's, and you tried to say that I didn't know anything about the other characters a while back, at least I post in nearly every single character board and take the time to actually read the threads. Most IC players in general agree that they're nearly unplayable online. The things that make them so good such as their CG's and desynchs require such precise execution under strict time frames that a second of lag can throw them completely off. Doing those things offline are already a pain in the ***, so imagine how bad it would be to do it with lag. So I gues it's time to lay some IC knowledge on you, here's some general info on them.

Thread on Desynchs:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159767

Vid on some IC tactics::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8TH7OBqHLc

Some matches:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GM3odhBdro
http://youtube.com/watch?v=il06guxURgQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zn_MC_auemo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yiFET1t5Hw8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x8d1Q3WBBGg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=al-RtNLtOVU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0gQ1D9yrfPo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qnwag93eWQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OXzL1XIXQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kq0UoyeC0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTHLf3Eark8

Chaingrabs:

Dthrow- You can repeat Dthrows until a certain percent that varies amongst characters, and it only requires one IC.

Dthrow into Fair- Just like repeated Dthrows this only works until a certain percent. If the opponent is still standing after the Fair you can regrab, but if the opponent hits the floor then you can do a follow up. You can also use this to spike the opponent while next to the ledge, but you must hit the Fair while the opponent is directly under you.

Dthrow into squall hammer- Do a Dthrow and make one IC do a solo squall hammer, and when that one ends make the other IC do a squall hammer, and keep alternating between the two. This can be done all the way to the end of the stage

Ice block lock- After a Dthrow into Fair CG you can desynch the IC's and make them shoot evenly spaced out ice blocks which will keep your opponent infinitely stunned. If you make one IC jump and shoot an ice block to the far side of your opponent it will pop them back to you resulting in a true infinite. Here's a video on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvR9x8tm-I

Alternating throws- This is an infinite that works on every character, but the timing is difficult and varies on the percent and the character you're fighting against. First you grab with one IC, then do a Fthrow, Bthrow, or Dthrow, then grab with the other IC.

Double smash throw- This is a good way to rack up damage and KO your opponent. You simply just grab with one IC and attack with the C-stick. This results in Popo doing grab hits while Nana does smashes. After Nana does the second smash it'll knock the opponent out of Popo's hand.

Charged smash throw- This is a good way to get off a fully charged smash attack for an easy KO. Simply grab with one IC and then hit the C-stick in any direction for a smash while hold Z, which will result in you charging your smash while the opponent is still grabbed.

Squall hammer throw- Grab with Popo then tilt the control stick very slightly to the side and make Nana do a solo squall hammer. She should knock them behind Popo so he can turn around and regrab them. This can be done until very high percents.

Here's a vid showing how to do some of these CG's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

God you're so immature, grow up already. We all agree that MK is top tier, but you're the only player I've ever seen on SWF or SRK who claims that MK is the indisputable best character in the game. Yet instead of explaining why you think so, you're just going to ride on M2K's ****. Why is it so hard for you to have a conversation without spouting off insults? Do you somehow lack the ability to calmly debate an issue? Also, how hard is it to simply go and read the IC's board so you can learn a **** thing about them. And it's funny how you're going to say that I have the IC's high up because I main them, yet you main MK and claim he's the best character in the game. I hope you see the hypocrisy in this.

REALLY, I think he is self-asserting himself and his MK. He hopes that MK will be top of top tier, he dreams it.

Also I disagree with MK being 1. on top tier. I find that Falco has an advantage over MK (when Falco players know how to play an MK) and MK doesn't have any good kill moves, as opposed to Falco having good kill moves. Truly an MK can't ever be top of top tier because he has no projectile which forces him to play offense. ALL THE TIME. For example, two players of skill lvl 16 fight each other (one uses MK, one uses Falco), the Falco is more likely to be victorious. Someone playing MK always has to be skill lvl 17 in order to win.

 

[Repryx]

Falcos advantage is to stop Mks Priority with his laser but even then Falco has trouble geting inside due to MKs Offense BEING his Defense, Why play defensivly with a sheild when you can do the same with High priorty hit boxes? The reason Falco has trouble is because MK has more speed and range. Whats Power if you can never use it or get in close enough to use it? Also MKs Dsmash has Wonderful K.O potential or at least K.O starter potential.

That being said Falco only L-Cancels his Nair, MK cancels more moves than that

-Ciao

 

[Dark Sonic]

ISonic Wave has required that I go more in depth. Marth has more range true but MK has more proximity range AND his attacks come out quicker, that combined with almost all of his attacks being multiple hits, help him to get past Marths Fair barrage by simply spamming more than him. Also MKs Hyper Tornado has Higher Priority than all of Marths attacks(save two?) meaning MK is pretty safe to use this move as a spacer between him and Marth, combine this with the face that the attack cancels itself, you have one safe MK. Though MK can single hit kill like Marth he can Uair barrage into up B, or smash you off then FOLLOW you for the kill. That being said Marths Recovery is not as good as MKs as MK can com from being knocked Horizontal and down from the stage w.o being edgehogged. Both Up Bs are kill moves but MK gets another attack from it. Marth Sword dance is nice but its just like MKs AAA lolz. Marth has a hit-counter while MK has a Semi-recovery all purpose counter. Stacked up, MK is the better character. Also MK has more spammable and auto-cancelled moves than Marth.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. I was debating that Marth may have a slight advantage in that particular matchup, not that Marth was a better character overall. I agree that Metaknight is a better character, but BDawgPHD had said "Marth isn't even all that good" which I just had to refute.

Back on the Marth vs Metaknight Matchup.

So it's agreed that Metaknight has a better time approaching in air battles due to the multihit nature of his attacks, but how does Metaknight approach on when Marth is on the ground? Marth's uptilt and f-tilt halt nearly all aerial approaches, and Marth can also just shield the hit and side B, up B, or in some cases F-smash.

Don't Marth's fair and bair go through the hyper tornado? One thing I've been dying to test though is, what happens if I just shield the hyper tornado? Does it have enough shield stun to prevent me from Up Bing out of my shield? (since shieldstun is so rediculously low in this game) I'm going to have to test that.

Metaknight may get another attack from his Up B, but Marth's up B gives him invincibility frames, allowing him to break out of any combo attempts (he can even Up B out of JAB COMOs. We're not sure, but it's also possible that Marth can up B out of the DDD chaingrab). He can't up B out of Metaknight's defualt attacks, but he can stop any follow ups with it if Metaknight gets too close.


In all honesty, I could be a little inexperienced in this matchup, because even though I have fought Metaknights, I haven't fought any that were better than me. The Metaknight main in my crew isn't exactly our strongest member, and the ones I've fought at smashfests seemed like they were still learning Metaknight's range. What's your opinion of the matchup? From your post it seems like you'd say it's either even or slightly in Metaknight's favor.

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

Falcos advantage is to stop Mks Priority with his laser but even then Falco has trouble geting inside due to MKs Offense BEING his Defense, Why play defensivly with a sheild when you can do the same with High priorty hit boxes? The reason Falco has trouble is because MK has more speed and range. Whats Power if you can never use it or get in close enough to use it? Also MKs Dsmash has Wonderful K.O potential or at least K.O starter potential.

That being said Falco only L-Cancels his Nair, MK cancels more moves than that

-Ciao

Um, did you read my post??

If you did you would have realised that a Falco that can REALLY space, won't be affected by MK's offense

An MK has no chance to rack up damage if he cant hit a Falco. And Falco's spacing moves and lasers rack up damage simultaneously while he spaces off the MK.

Plainly, a good Falco has the advantage because the MK HAS to attack offensively, while the Falco can shoot lasers from afar. This gives him the advantage (if the Falco knows what hes doing) but I would assume it would still be an even fight.

 

[Pustulio]

tires don exits

 

[Repryx]

Um, did you read my post??

If you did you would have realised that a Falco that can REALLY space, won't be affected by MK's offense

An MK has no chance to rack up damage if he cant hit a Falco. And Falco's spacing moves and lasers rack up damage simultaneously while he spaces off the MK.

Plainly, a good Falco has the advantage because the MK HAS to attack offensively, while the Falco can shoot lasers from afar. This gives him the advantage (if the Falco knows what hes doing) but I would assume it would still be an even fight.

Spamming Lasers wont Cut it when MK can Fly/glide/jump over the Laser Range. That being Said, Falco needs to get in close to finish off MK and thats when MK can, and most likely will take him.

More Importantly if YOU read what you wrote in this quote, you would realize that you just Argued against yourself, which has made me upset...how can you assume it is an even match-up after you say Falco has the advantage?

Also MK can camp ledges he doesnt have to play offensively, MK has more running options than Falco therefore, Falco is more suspectable to traps.

SonicWave, because of MKs Proximity Range as well as his control over the area OFF of the level (as well as his ability to use platforms as traps and such) Id Say MK has a 60% to Marths 40% chance of winning. Which is alot beleive me two people of the same skill will see MK winning more unless it is a stage Marth can duck on like Battlefeild, at the same time if it is on Smashville, Marth is screwed as MK can use that platform to renew his jumps and continue to repel Marth out of bounds

-Ciao

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I wonder... with all this talk of MK...

Has anyone found that Ike seems to hold his own versus Metaknight, or am I just crazy? Seeing that Ike can completely shut down any aerial game, and outrange almost the entire cast, am I right to assume that he has an equal chance versus Metaknight?

 

[Corner-Trap]

tires don exits

of course they don't

I wonder... with all this talk of MK...

Has anyone found that Ike seems to hold his own versus Metaknight, or am I just crazy? Seeing that Ike can completely shut down any aerial game, and outrange almost the entire cast, am I right to assume that he has an equal chance versus Metaknight?

Funny thing is, is that I was having a conversation with my friend about that very match-up today. I do agree with you though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

This thread is hilarious.

Also I agree that Marth doesn't really hard counter any of the good characters. It's just slight advantage. While MK loses badly to Snake and then he counters other characters hard.

So the question is which is more important? Being pretty good all across the board or being really good and then getting rocked in one match-up?

Also I think Marth has very slight advantage on MK.

But can we all agree that Marth vs Metaknight is the most awesomest match-up in the game by far?

It's so ****ing amazing.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

lol.

This thread is hilarious.

Also I agree that Marth doesn't really hard counter any of the good characters. It's just slight advantage. While MK loses badly to Snake and then he counters other characters hard.

So the question is which is more important? Being pretty good all across the board or being really good and then getting rocked in one match-up?

Also I think Marth has very slight advantage on MK.

But can we all agree that Marth vs Metaknight is the most awesomest match-up in the game by far?

It's so ****ing amazing.

Oh man, I can only imagine a matchup where neither character can camp, AND they both have fast paced combat backing them up. *Drools*

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

One of the best Players I know are an Ike, and it's either I win by 2 stocks or he wins by the skin of his teeth. It would really depend on the MK. He would need to have excellent dodge timing, because Ike literally only has to land like 6 or 7 hits to KO him.

also, I hate his uptilt and Aether >_<

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

And yes, Marth vs Meta Knight Matches are usually the most fast paced, awesome matches EVER. I do say they're pretty equal


Sakurai made a great decision pairing them up in SSE.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also I have decided that Pit can't be top tier.

Losing to EVERYONE in top tier means he isn't viable.

Also Snake is the best character in the game. He is a beast, and he laughs at MK's feeble attempts to attack him or even kill him.

Then Marth comes in with tipper f-smash and easy dair gimps FTW!!!!!!

Sorry baby MK you are far too weak and light.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Corner-Trap]

Also I have decided that Pit can't be top tier.

Losing to EVERYONE in top tier means he isn't viable.

Also Snake is the best character in the game. He is a beast, and he laughs at MK's feeble attempts to attack him or even kill him.

Then Marth comes in with tipper f-smash and easy dair gimps FTW!!!!!!

Sorry baby MK you are far too weak and light.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*waits for BDawgPHD to go on an MK rant*

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Also I have decided that Pit can't be top tier.

Losing to EVERYONE in top tier means he isn't viable.

Also Snake is the best character in the game. He is a beast, and he laughs at MK's feeble attempts to attack him or even kill him.

Then Marth comes in with tipper f-smash and easy dair gimps FTW!!!!!!

<b>Sorry baby MK you are far too weak and light.</b>

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lolwut?

Aside from Snake, no other Chars likely to be in the Top Tier (I.E Wolf,Falco,Pit,TL) have THAT much a distinct advantage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also if you base the tier list on match-ups then MK is lower then all of the other top tiers since he is pretty much the only one with bad match-ups while the others have none from what I have seen.

Also, Marth laughs at MK's B moves thanks to Counter and Shieldbreaker.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Um Ryan Sparks(Riot on the boards) just won a 60 man Brawl tourney today with DK.

ONLY DK.

He walked home with just under 700 bucks.

He beat Olimars, Marths, Pits, MetaKnights, among others.

Riot is a beast.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Oh and can we all shut up about toon link.

He's not top.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think TL is top. *shurgs

Also Marth outranges MK. Forget about all that proximity range bull****. If Marth spaces correctly, when MK tries to hit him his sword will hit MK. End of story.

Marth has slight advantage on MK for a simple reason really.

Fair camping. Marth's DI is crazy so you SH fair and from there Marth can react to anything. Unlike MK he doesn't slice his swrod 3 times which means he spends less time doing that action, which means he is less committed to that action. The fair creates a wall for a moment and then when his opponent tries something he has an answer. It's his basic gameplan and it's extremely effective. It also works with FF fair.

Yes, MK can gimp Marth, but Marth isn't extremely easy to gimp. His recovery is decent and he CAN hit MK if MK tries to swat him out of the sky. And Marth CAN gimp MK. It's harder but he can do it. If MK's edge guarding is a 10 out of 10 then Marth's edge guarding is a 9 out of 10. They are both good edgeguarders. Too bad Marth completely outclasses him in terms of raw power and range huh?

Also remember that a tipper from Marth is death to MK at low percents since MK is light.

So yeah slight advantage to Marth.

Also whats all this talk about Uair chains to up B?

Just DI up and airdodge and you can get out. This is only really effective on heavy opponents at low percents.

Marth can just counter anyway. ^_^

 

[StripesOrBars]

Yeah, uh, Donkey Kong people.

Donkey Kong.

 

[Browny]

lol @ emblem lord pretending to ignore DK

we understand you are a marth fan, you dont need to remind us with every single post.

and stripes, Why do you say TL isnt top?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I wasn't ignoring him. I don't think DK sucks so why would I feel the need to comment?

Anyway, you should tell BDawg what you told me but this time relate it MK.

At least I don't insult people and I know how to be civil. Some of the posts in this thread are just ridiculous.

 

[goodoldganon]

Yeah, uh, Donkey Kong people.

Donkey Kong.

Hell ya man! DK is so underrated in this game. He has so much potential that people refuse to see. I hope more DKs win some tournaments so he can get the recognition he deserves.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I think TL is top. *shurgs

Also Marth outranges MK. Forget about all that proximity range bull****. If Marth spaces correctly, when MK tries to hit him his sword will hit MK. End of story.

Marth has slight advantage on MK for a simple reason really.

Fair camping. Marth's DI is crazy so you SH fair and from there Marth can react to anything. Unlike MK he doesn't slice his swrod 3 times which means he spends less time doing that action, which means he is less committed to that action. The fair creates a wall for a moment and then when his opponent tries something he has an answer. It's his basic gameplan and it's extremely effective. It also works with FF fair.

Yes, MK can gimp Marth, but Marth isn't extremely easy to gimp. His recovery is decent and he CAN hit MK if MK tries to swat him out of the sky. And Marth CAN gimp MK. It's harder but he can do it. If MK's edge guarding is a 10 out of 10 then Marth's edge guarding is a 9 out of 10. They are both good edgeguarders. Too bad Marth completely outclasses him in terms of raw power and range huh?

Also remember that a tipper from Marth is death to MK at low percents since MK is light.

So yeah slight advantage to Marth.

Also whats all this talk about Uair chains to up B?

Just DI up and airdodge and you can get out. This is only really effective on heavy opponents at low percents.

Marth can just counter anyway. ^_^

First , Usually I see Uair chains to a Mach Tornado to straight force gimp you off the top, once Meta get's you in the first hit of mach tornado as long as he keeps you in you can't escape it from what I've seen. Tippers in Brawl seem slightly easier to avoid than in Melee, and unless it's at the end of the stage, it wouldn;t kill MK until like the 75-80% range.

And unlike MK, Marth has a bit more ending lag to his smashes and some of his tilts. the only ground moves that really have a semblance of lag for MK are his basic A jab, uptilt and Fsmash(possibly the last hit of Ftilt if you do the entire 3-hits). Even a half a second of lag can make the biggest difference.

I still believe the Matchup is dead even.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's most f-tilt and d-tilt have IASA frames. He can cancel them right after the attack animation is done with.

They don't lag.

Punishing lag isn't what gives Marth advantage. His spacing is what does it. And Marth has oher moves to punish blocked attacks not just his smashes. Namely Dancing Blade.

Also you can avoid any ending move that MK uses after Uair chains and they only work at low percents.

Did you ignore my whole post?

And Marth can stop MK's B moves on reaction. That was my point. Not getting out once it starts.

Yeah Marth lags more after smashes. So? Don't ***** them. They are for killing. Nothing else.

Dying fast is a big deal in Brawl when you can live to 140% on average. MK being light isn't a small weakness. And Marth excels at killing well.

He has the tools to do well vs MK. The advantage is slight though.

 

[Corner-Trap]

DK won a 60 man tournament? Very, very, impressive.

 

[TeamIke]

Psh. DK has nothing on IKE. IKE could win a 120, hell, a 180 man tournament. With every other entrant being Fox. No items. Final Destination.

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

Spamming Lasers wont Cut it when MK can Fly/glide/jump over the Laser Range. That being Said, Falco needs to get in close to finish off MK and thats when MK can, and most likely will take him.

More Importantly if YOU read what you wrote in this quote, you would realize that you just Argued against yourself, which has made me upset...how can you assume it is an even match-up after you say Falco has the advantage?

Also MK can camp ledges he doesnt have to play offensively, MK has more running options than Falco therefore, Falco is more suspectable to traps.

SonicWave, because of MKs Proximity Range as well as his control over the area OFF of the level (as well as his ability to use platforms as traps and such) Id Say MK has a 60% to Marths 40% chance of winning. Which is alot beleive me two people of the same skill will see MK winning more unless it is a stage Marth can duck on like Battlefeild, at the same time if it is on Smashville, Marth is screwed as MK can use that platform to renew his jumps and continue to repel Marth out of bounds

-Ciao

YOU just argued against YOURSELF.

I said Falco's projectiles and MK's complete lack of projectiles is Falco's advantage over MK. It WILL be an even fight because if if two players of equal skill fight each other, the one playing Falco is not going to be able to laser all the time, there will be many instances in which the Falco and MK will be right in each other's faces. And when these instances come, MK the advantage, thus evening the playing field.

-Ciao.

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

Yes, MK is definately high tier

 

[BDawgPHD]

REALLY, I think he is self-asserting himself and his MK. He hopes that MK will be top of top tier, he dreams it.

Also I disagree with MK being 1. on top tier. I find that Falco has an advantage over MK (when Falco players know how to play an MK) and MK doesn't have any good kill moves, as opposed to Falco having good kill moves. Truly an MK can't ever be top of top tier because he has no projectile which forces him to play offense. ALL THE TIME. For example, two players of skill lvl 16 fight each other (one uses MK, one uses Falco), the Falco is more likely to be victorious. Someone playing MK always has to be skill lvl 17 in order to win.

Falco has no such advantage over MK. Falco has to camp with lasers/shine to force the opponent to get close, but there are two problems with this.

1) Meta Knight is coming in close range anyway.
2) Falco can only control either the sky or the ground at any given time.

That being said, if Falco tries to laser on the ground, MK can fly over and make his assault from the air. If he lasers in the air, MK can run underneath and attack, since the lasers won't be close enough to the ground to hit him at any given point. As long as the MK keeps the proper spacing beforehand, he can act according to Falco. Chaingrab isn't a big deal. The shine can be somewhat problematic if Falco is able to get it out in time. Otherwise, MK outranges/outprioritizes Falco in the air.

Falco's only really good killing moves are his fsmash and his usmash, both are perfectly avoidable. Whereas Meta Knight can kill with his dsmash, upB, glide attack, and nair with relative ease, and can get kills at higher percentages with his other aerials and comboing.

Also, Meta Knight was BUILT TO APPROACH. His characteristics allow him to approach any character with ease but Snake (Snake severely limits his approach options). He has incredible speed, and he can air camp a bit to play mind games and to avoid situations that people limited to two jumps would get stuck in. His moves have no lag to speak of, save the ones mentioned earlier by someone. This lets him do things like shield pressure or "jiggly-space" as I like to call it :3

Also, wtf is up with this level ****? ZOMG ITS OVER 9000!!!

Um, did you read my post??

If you did you would have realised that a Falco that can REALLY space, won't be affected by MK's offense

An MK has no chance to rack up damage if he cant hit a Falco. And Falco's spacing moves and lasers rack up damage simultaneously while he spaces off the MK.

Plainly, a good Falco has the advantage because the MK HAS to attack offensively, while the Falco can shoot lasers from afar. This gives him the advantage (if the Falco knows what hes doing) but I would assume it would still be an even fight.

Disproven. MK actually spaces off Falco well, and his lasers and shine are easily dealt with by a good MK.

I wonder... with all this talk of MK...

Has anyone found that Ike seems to hold his own versus Metaknight, or am I just crazy? Seeing that Ike can completely shut down any aerial game, and outrange almost the entire cast, am I right to assume that he has an equal chance versus Metaknight?

Yea, Ike can have a good time against MK, although I think a smart MK won't mindlessly try to break Ike as Ike jab combos him to death. It's a matchup between speed vs. strength, and it depends on how smart the MK is and how patient the Ike is. If the Ike is patient enough, it's a very tough matchup for MK.

Also I have decided that Pit can't be top tier.

Losing to EVERYONE in top tier means he isn't viable.

Also Snake is the best character in the game. He is a beast, and he laughs at MK's feeble attempts to attack him or even kill him.

Then Marth comes in with tipper f-smash and easy dair gimps FTW!!!!!!

Sorry baby MK you are far too weak and light.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marth can't dair gimp MK because he'd have to get above MK off the stage, and MK won't let him do that. Snake isn't an impossible matchup for MK, although it's very difficult. But you're bonkers if you think that little of MK.

I think TL is top. *shurgs

Also Marth outranges MK. Forget about all that proximity range bull****. If Marth spaces correctly, when MK tries to hit him his sword will hit MK. End of story.

Marth has slight advantage on MK for a simple reason really.

Fair camping. Marth's DI is crazy so you SH fair and from there Marth can react to anything. Unlike MK he doesn't slice his swrod 3 times which means he spends less time doing that action, which means he is less committed to that action. The fair creates a wall for a moment and then when his opponent tries something he has an answer. It's his basic gameplan and it's extremely effective. It also works with FF fair.

Yes, MK can gimp Marth, but Marth isn't extremely easy to gimp. His recovery is decent and he CAN hit MK if MK tries to swat him out of the sky. And Marth CAN gimp MK. It's harder but he can do it. If MK's edge guarding is a 10 out of 10 then Marth's edge guarding is a 9 out of 10. They are both good edgeguarders. Too bad Marth completely outclasses him in terms of raw power and range huh?

Also remember that a tipper from Marth is death to MK at low percents since MK is light.

So yeah slight advantage to Marth.

Also whats all this talk about Uair chains to up B?

Just DI up and airdodge and you can get out. This is only really effective on heavy opponents at low percents.

Marth can just counter anyway. ^_^

MK can just shield grab all of Marth's attacks. If Marth won't approach, MK can just dash grab. By the way, MK's dash grab is very fast/rangely (rangely is a word, trust me )

If an MK gets the uair chain perfect, you might not be able to airdodge out of it. Then again, maybe you can

You can't downB counter grabs. Keep that in mind.

Um Ryan Sparks(Riot on the boards) just won a 60 man Brawl tourney today with DK.

ONLY DK.

He walked home with just under 700 bucks.

He beat Olimars, Marths, Pits, MetaKnights, among others.

Riot is a beast.

DK is just too good people think that he sucks, but he really doesn't. You see that, corner trap? Make DK high tier immediately.

Yes, MK is definately the best character in the game

Finally, someone who actually used his brain. Good job! Fix that typo, though.

 

[Dynamism?]

I whole heartedly agree with you. Ivysaur gets such a bad rep because of his recovery.

It's funny how Olimar doesn't drop below high even though Ivy would kick his tiny *** every time

IC's honestly are useless online because all of their best tactics require such precise timing which is literally impossible with even a second of button lag.

some stuff that I didn't read was in this post

I ASSURE YOU!!! NOTHING IS TRUE!!! NEVER!!!

jk
Seriously though, the ICs are fine online. Their chaingrabs can still be preformed as it's more of a feel thing rather than visual timing. Wolf is good but not great. MK is great but not good enough to be the best. Pika is possibly the best and that's obvious to anyone who knows anything about Pika. Falco is all good, same with Luigi, Zelda and half the cast. Marth isn't as good as he's thought to be. DK is a beast, Bowser can be too. Ike isn't very good, Sonic will be much better in time. PT is very underrated as far as his match up strengths are concerned. Pit is good, TLink is good, Diddy is good...etc etc...

I'm very puzzled though. At the same time I don't care so don't bother trying to clear this up for me. (I have an idea, I just like to think people would be smarter than that lol [no offense])

I STILL don't know where people got it in their heads that DK was worse than Marth at all in the first place. Same with much of the cast. We always talk about how MK isn't that great against Marth and Snake, then we compare all of those really easy to learn and very looked at characters, but at the same time as we discuss the match ups within each other, they lose to characters "lower" on the abundant personal tier lists, and we still think they are better than Yoshi, Ness, DK, ICs and Mario.

That's just lazy NOTHING SHOULD BE SURPRISING REGARDING CHARACTERS. Especially the characters people know nothing of. Possibly impressive, but surprising is just a sign that you need to look into this game more as a whole.

Like I said about 8 pages ago in this thread, I'll be surprised if Marth, MK and Snake are Top Tier and Yoshi, DK and Wario were bottom in just a few months. Maybe not surprised, but saddened because it will just go to show how twisted the perception is at this point.
Because that would make litterally ZERO SENSE to me.

And it will to you too if you look at this game from every side. It's more difficult than it seems, but it's the highest reward in those terms at this point.

Random = Broken... *cough*