Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Kiwikomix]

Here's where I come in once in a while and defend a character that no one else cares about.
Pimpslap, I admire your ability to place your main so low, but WHY is he so low? His aerials have lower knockback but are more able to be linked together, and his smashes have great KO ability. Even his recovery is better with more horizontal movement in upB. He's gotten so much better from Melee but you've put him in the same place. Are his matchups just that terrible?

 

[Corner-Trap]

Maybe I may be a little ignorant, but I dont find Pit to be Top Tier AT ALL. Top of the Mid-High or bottom of the High.


Sure his Arrow/Angel Ring spam is annoying, but his recovery is only good if your a bad edgeguarder and his Bair and Fsmash seem to be his only consistent killers.


He's good, but definatly not top tier material.

He can camp with arrows, and can't be camped back since he has two reflectors. His UpB may be able to be gimped, but his still has five midair jumps and a glide making his recovery good regardless, which is still better than other characters. His move set overall is just really good, with basically all of his attacks being useful. And his match-ups are just really nice with his worst match-ups being a 4/6 at most.

 

[Conda]

A character isn't a good tiered character just because they have good recovery and "a move set with useful attacks".

 

[Corner-Trap]

A character isn't a good tiered character just because they have good recovery and "a move set with useful attacks".

Apparently you forgot good match-ups, and is simply better when compared to most characters.

 

[Scicky]

Ike being low tier is just ignorance. Not saying you are stupid, but just lacking experience vs a good Ike. He's top of mid tier or bottom of the high. People say oh he has such glaring flaws, but really it's just that he is rather easy to gimp. This is fixed SOMEWHAT by switching up your timing and air dodging attacks before Aether, a move that has a lot more ledge reach than people realize. A good Ike is EXTREMELY hard to penetrate since his aerials become amazing when spaced properly. Add his high weight, immense power and a top 3(if not THE best) Jab combo and he simply isn't low tier.

Luigi in low tier is also ignorance. Luigi has no real weakness actually. His move set in general is insane and his damage output is decent. Top 5 aerials, really good air maneuverability, etc. Not low tier.

DK is also not low tier. DK is just good in general. He has deceptive priority with bair, forward tilt, down tilt and anti side step/roll with down special. DK punch has invunerbility frames, down smash is among one of the best block punishes in the game.

PT low tier is also a joke. Ivysaur isn't very good, but if you're going to judge him as an overall character there is no way Charizard or Squirtle are low tier.

WOLF MID TIER? Ok I'm done. Not even worth breaking down anymore.

Please people, play good people and have a decent knowledge of the game before attempting to talk tiers.

Actually, anyone who mains PT or has played a really good PT knows that
Ivysaur CAN be a beast if used correctly...

FSmash is a powerful killer and he can rack up damage easily with
alot of his moves...

I still think Charizard and Squirtle are better, but Ivysaur certainly
isn't bad :/

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Metaknight does have one weakness that because glaringly obvious when against a good Ike...

He is rather light. Vertical KO's are easier to land on him. Seriously people, STOP trying to kill the bugger out the sides!

But I hardly thing that will keep him out of top tier. He's got too much going for him to be concerned with being light.

 

[BDawgPHD]

BDawgPHD, do you play any characters aside from MK? Throughout most of this thread you keep spouting off about how amazing MK is. I main the IC's and they are seriously underrated by a lot of players, but you don't seem me making every post saying how they should be top tier blah, blah, blah. Most people agree that he is top tier, but he is no more impressive then a lot of the other top tier candidates such as Pit, TL, Falco, etc. I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, just pointing it out.

I main Meta Knight, and I submain a sizable group of characters that include Pokemon Trainer, Ike, Bowser, Luigi, DK, Kirby, ZSS, Falco, G&W, and Ness. I've played a little bit of everyone, some I don't play well with, some just aren't as good as my submains. Notice I don't really know how to use characters like Toon Link or Pikachu, but I do realize that they're top tier.

The reason I say Meta Knight is the best is because he's easy to use. But don't get me wrong, he's not really a guaranteed win, but consider how I defined tiers a while back. I said that it had a lot to do with the strength of a character versus the margin of error for that character. Meta Knight's got moves, but yea, so do Toon Link and Pikachu. The thing is, though, that the margin of error is huge. This has two major implications:

1) The price you pay for making mistakes don't result in a stock unless you make far too many mistakes.

2) You're allowed many many mistakes, so even if you're completely unknowledeable as far as the player you're facing or even the character you're facing, you can actually learn the matchup IN THE MATCH if you're smart and know how to play Brawl.

That being said, whenever I see a new matchup with a good player and a new character, I try to get a few games in with them and try to learn the matchup and how the character plays. The only character I have trouble with is Pikachu...and possibly a certain Ike who's just wicked good, but even those matchups aren't terribly hard. You can't make mistakes if you're Bowser, because you might as well just jump off the stage. You can make mistakes with people like Pit, but you'll pay for them much more quickly. If you notice, a lot of the higher tiered characters are still light characters, so making mistakes with them will always be a little problematic at least. But Meta Knight has the advantage of a beastly recovery and multiple jumps. Throw in the fact that his approach is arguably the best in the game, and you....well....have your best character.

Maybe I may be a little ignorant, but I dont find Pit to be Top Tier AT ALL. Top of the Mid-High or bottom of the High.


Sure his Arrow/Angel Ring spam is annoying, but his recovery is only good if your a bad edgeguarder and his Bair and Fsmash seem to be his only consistent killers.


He's good, but definatly not top tier material.

Pit has a lot of strong attacks, and Pit's recovery is only really bad if you don't take advantage of gliding. Question for you guys, can Pit attack during his upB?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yes, but then he loses it and cant do it again until he touches land.

 

[The Cash Man 2]

Bowser should be at LEAST bottom of high tier. He is surprisingly faster than most people make him out to be. Most people who say he sucks don't knwo how to use him.

 

[BDawgPHD]

The Cash Man 2, Bowser gets owned in certain matchups....he is a lot better than he was in Melee, and the Brawl game engine supports him, and I wouldn't be surprised if he went into mid tier, but with things like Falco chaingrabbing to spike, or Ness PK firing the F**K out of him, he's still sort of a tough character to use properly. I'd definitely say he has a spot in mid tier, but he might make it to bottom of high tier AT THE HIGHEST in my opinion.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Uhh, Bowser is NOT high tier, he's near the top of the middle-high tier or the middle of the middle-high tier. He's good, but not that good.

Uhh, judging from what I've seen, I think it's TL/Lucas/Wolf for top tier, then space animals and Kirby characters, then who knows. Maybe Boozer? Maybe.

 

[The Cash Man 2]

Easy way to counter Falco's spiking? Whirling Fortress.

As for Ness's PK fire, I'll have to look up a way to get out of that.

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

Easy way to counter Falco's spiking? Whirling Fortress.

As for Ness's PK fire, I'll have to look up a way to get out of that.

You have make sure you have enough horizontal space to recover or else you may fall to your death anyways. Although this would require Falco to spike after a powerful attack as opposed to a chain grab.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Bowser should be at LEAST bottom of high tier. He is surprisingly faster than most people make him out to be. Most people who say he sucks don't knwo how to use him.

I'll have to be absolutely MAULED by a Bowzer before I'll believe that! xD

The "he only sucks because you don't know how to use him" argument is soooo old and futile. Sonic players are the worst for using that line. The sad truth is, most of the time they are wrong.

Most players don't base a character on how well they can use them, but on they've seen other players use them. I play a GODAWFUL Toon Link, but I know **** well he's amazing in the right hands. Bowzer however, I have never seen do well, even when he's being controlled well.

 

[BDawgPHD]

You can probably DI out of the PK fire, but it won't be easy, you'll probably take a massive amount of damage...you can also try not getting hit by it, but it's much easier said than done.

And are you sure that Bowser can upB before Falco Dairs even if he's being chaingrabbed?

EDIT: Also, most people are still hooked on Melee styled play. As people delve into the Brawl meta game, Bowser will succeed a lot more.

And the people that say that Sonic sucks ARE people that don't know how to use them. The problem is that no one really knows how to use Sonic in the first place.

 

[Micahc]

Just something I'd like to say:

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is rated worse than sonic.

aside from his recovery, which has decent di and vertical distance, there is no saving grace. He can't kill. he can't approach. His specials are useless. He's slow in attack.

He has -nothing- going for him.

how mario can be rated lower than sonic is unbelievable.

can anyone find anything that allows sonic to not be last?

 

[Griffard]

Actually, anyone who mains PT or has played a really good PT knows that
Ivysaur CAN be a beast if used correctly...

FSmash is a powerful killer and he can rack up damage easily with
alot of his moves...

I still think Charizard and Squirtle are better, but Ivysaur certainly
isn't bad :/

Ivysaur is AMAZING, seriously. one of the best killers in the game, and he does NOT have poor recovery, he has the longest tether grab, and after a ridiculously long range bair or a razor leaf, a lightning fast vine whip always works. his f tilt, u tilt, uair, dair, f smash, u smash are great killers, and he can even take foes (especially spacies) off of the stage with repeated bairs until they can no longer recover. once someone considered a "professional" starts to main pt and utilize ivysaur to his full potential (and i don't mean ONLY using him, that doesn't work), then we will see where he really belongs on the list. i KNOW he won't be top or even high tier, but that doesn't stop him from having great match ups and beating out many other chars in the mid tier

 

[Griffard]

Just something I'd like to say:

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is rated worse than sonic.

aside from his recovery, which has decent di and vertical distance, there is no saving grace. He can't kill. he can't approach. His specials are useless. He's slow in attack.

He has -nothing- going for him.

how mario can be rated lower than sonic is unbelievable.

can anyone find anything that allows sonic to not be last?

agreed 100%, mario can still combo, approach and spam with fireballs, and be a threat in the air with his bair. low-mid, but def way better than sonic

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Ivysaur is AMAZING, seriously. one of the best killers in the game, and he does NOT have poor recovery, he has the longest tether grab, and after a ridiculously long range bair or a razor leaf, a lightning fast vine whip always works. his f tilt, u tilt, uair, dair, f smash, u smash are great killers, and he can even take foes (especially spacies) off of the stage with repeated bairs until they can no longer recover. once someone considered a "professional" starts to main pt and utilize ivysaur to his full potential (and i don't mean ONLY using him, that doesn't work), then we will see where he really belongs on the list. i KNOW he won't be top or even high tier, but that doesn't stop him from having great match ups and beating out many other chars in the mid tier

I whole heartedly agree with you. Ivysaur gets such a bad rep because of his recovery. But he's such a killer on the stage its not even funny. When played defensively, the character is practically unapproachable. Vine Whips and Bullet Seeds prevent almost any aerial based attack, his stupid long sheildgrab takes care of practically everything else. His smashes are either all very long ranged or very powerful. Same goes with his aerials. Throw in a decent projectile, and you've got a character that pretty much mauls any character in the cast that can't camp. The only thing that keeps Ivysaur from being completely broken is how easy he is to kill once you start landing hits! xD

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

agreed, ivysaur is a monster.

i still can't believe people are rating pokemon trainer down in the lower tiers. he probably couldn't go toe to toe with marth or snake, but he can definitely stand up to zss/pit/diddy, all of whom are rated fairly well.

each of the pokemon is so useful, honestly, pt's only real weakness is the switching system. if you don't choose the right moments to switch pokemon, your opponent is going to tear you up. other than that, everything about the pokemon trainer is decent at worst. ivysaur alone has three of the most broken moves in the game. there's no way pt isn't going to climb up the list in the coming months.

 

[Metro Knight]

One thing I've noticed about all this tier list debating is that absolutely no one is willing to accept where their character is placed. If a character is in mid, low, or bottom tier then players want that character to be moved up. People are gonna keep arguing for characters to be moved up until all we have is a top tier with all 35 characters in it. One thing I'd like to clear up with some people is that tier placements aren't always based on how bad a character is, but on how good every other character is compared to that character. So when characters like Yoshi and Mario end up in low or bottom tier, it isn't because they have a lot of glaring flaws, it's more that they simply don't pose many advantageous over other characters. Also, as of now the tiers for Brawl are a lot tighter than the tiers for Melee. Of course this might not hold up true in the future, but to give a visual representation of how things look now:

Melee's Best
|
|
|
| Brawl's Best
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Brawl's Worst
|
|
|
Melee's Worst

I think this is good. This game is not nearly as polarized as Melee was. Certain characters got hit harder than others with the nerfs, and the new characters all seem to be getting good feedback. I think most of what we are seeing is a popularity contest. Some characters are better than others, but it is a much slower degree, and a lack of lists are being used. A list for expert players should be made, and a list for beginners should be made. Otherwise, saying Snake is high tier will make no sense to a beginning/middle level player, b/c his moveset is way different than any other character. Not to mention Sonic is like this as well. Meanwhile, if you play against really bad people, Marth seems like he just has to hit the c-stick to win, but all in all Marth really isn't that big of a deal. I mean people are good with him, but it is not like your going against the Melee Marth with the Melee Bowser.

I think two lists should be made, one for novice level players, and one for expert/tournament level players.

 

[BDawgPHD]

...I think two lists should be made, one for novice level players, and one for expert/tournament level players.

That's a ridiculous notion.....but it's very noble of you. You'd have to define what a novice player is, and have a ranking system for novices, which is impossible because novice is relative. Expert is the highest level of play, all it takes is some competition. I mean, I used to be a novice, but if we tried to make your list, Link would be top of the novice tier in Melee.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I main Meta Knight, and I submain a sizable group of characters that include Pokemon Trainer, Ike, Bowser, Luigi, DK, Kirby, ZSS, Falco, G&W, and Ness. I've played a little bit of everyone, some I don't play well with, some just aren't as good as my submains. Notice I don't really know how to use characters like Toon Link or Pikachu, but I do realize that they're top tier.

The reason I say Meta Knight is the best is because he's easy to use. But don't get me wrong, he's not really a guaranteed win, but consider how I defined tiers a while back. I said that it had a lot to do with the strength of a character versus the margin of error for that character. Meta Knight's got moves, but yea, so do Toon Link and Pikachu. The thing is, though, that the margin of error is huge. This has two major implications:

1) The price you pay for making mistakes don't result in a stock unless you make far too many mistakes.

2) You're allowed many many mistakes, so even if you're completely unknowledeable as far as the player you're facing or even the character you're facing, you can actually learn the matchup IN THE MATCH if you're smart and know how to play Brawl.

That being said, whenever I see a new matchup with a good player and a new character, I try to get a few games in with them and try to learn the matchup and how the character plays. The only character I have trouble with is Pikachu...and possibly a certain Ike who's just wicked good, but even those matchups aren't terribly hard. You can't make mistakes if you're Bowser, because you might as well just jump off the stage. You can make mistakes with people like Pit, but you'll pay for them much more quickly. If you notice, a lot of the higher tiered characters are still light characters, so making mistakes with them will always be a little problematic at least. But Meta Knight has the advantage of a beastly recovery and multiple jumps. Throw in the fact that his approach is arguably the best in the game, and you....well....have your best character.

Pit has a lot of strong attacks, and Pit's recovery is only really bad if you don't take advantage of gliding. Question for you guys, can Pit attack during his upB?

So we can all agree that MK is definitely top tier, but now I want to here more reasons on why you think he's the best character in the entire game. What are MK's match-ups? I play against three good MK players on a daily basis, he's probably my most fought match-up in the whole game. So one thing I can say for certain is that MK definitely has an advantage over the IC's

And Pit can attack out of UpB but he can't jump or use UpB again afterwards.

 

[algandar88]

Just something I'd like to say:

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is rated worse than sonic.

aside from his recovery, which has decent di and vertical distance, there is no saving grace. He can't kill. he can't approach. His specials are useless. He's slow in attack.

He has -nothing- going for him.

how mario can be rated lower than sonic is unbelievable.

can anyone find anything that allows sonic to not be last?

sonic can pull out good mindgames since he has multiple spin attacks......he also has excellent combo ability...it might b like melee but hes 1 of the few characters in brawl who can combo.....and yes sonic has killing moves f-smash,d-smash, bair and uair.......unless u understand how a character works u shouldnt be the one to say if he sucks or not

 

[Corner-Trap]

sonic can pull out good mindgames since he has multiple spin attacks......he also has excellent combo ability...it might b like melee but hes 1 of the few characters in brawl who can combo.....and yes sonic has killing moves f-smash,d-smash, bair and uair.......unless u understand how a character works u shouldnt be the one to say if he sucks or not

Sonic honestly does suck, he poses no advantageous over other characters. Mind games are not used in determining tiers, combos aren't a big part of Brawl, and his kill moves are way below average compared to nearly every other character.

 

[Sean²]

so, because you don't want to be known for choosing your character because of what the tier list says, instead you're going to choose (change) your character because of what the tier list says...

Sorry, I meant the people who chose their main by looking at who's at the top. I was put into that category for the last two games, i don't really want it to happen again

 

[Micahc]

I was exaggerating a bit when I said sonic has no kill moves; of course he has kill moves.

However, they are all extremely slow, weak for kill moves, and just bad. Reliable killing with sonic under 140ish damage just -doesn't- happen.

"multiple spin attacks"

so you think sonic is a capable character because side b and down b.. react slightly differently? neither is too respectable of a move to begin with, and a jump in the air is really not that huge of a difference.

sonic's combos are low in damage and not as drastic as you make it sound.

 

[FlyingMudPuppy]

Alright here it goes... *the scrub curls into fetal position*

My 2 cents isn't worth much as I am brand new to smash. The only advantage I could possibly have in this forum is the viewpoint of a completely new player who has not had a chance to pick a main. These tiers are supposed to rank characters based on how effective they are against how many of the other characters in how many different situations (such as stages), right? The problem is that people are biased towards characters they like personally, as not many people have had a chance to play every against every character with an equal skill level. If you wanted to make a truly good list, wouldn't you just look how many "counters" each character has? I think once you guys come to an agreement (well the closest to it), you will find that the top characters are pretty even.

From a new player's point of view, the tier, and therefore character choice depends on who is easy to use (maybe even the best charactes for button mashing). This means moderation in all aspects, not too fast, not too strong and not too complicated of movesets. Ere go, you won't see many brand new players choosing to main such characters as Bowser, Sonic, or Snake. What you will see a lot of us new players doing is picking characters like Meta Knight, Kirby, Starfox characters, or the Links, sometimes based on who they used against computers in "campaign modes". Someone had already said the list would be different based purely on skill level of the player, and I agree-there is no way I can play Snake as effectively as Yoshi as a beginner, but it seems that the general consensus is the reverse.

I hear a few people mentioning the best lists so far, and am wondering where they are (sorry I have not looked through 185 pages....).

I want to try to get better, but do not want to pick a character that will be deemed lower tier, as I will wrongly be able to blame losses on my character, instead of what is my skill. Also I do not know if it is just me, but I have a problem with the idea of choosing a character that a lot of others use.

 

[algandar88]

Alright here it goes... *the scrub curls into fetal position*

My 2 cents isn't worth much as I am brand new to smash. The only advantage I could possibly have in this forum is the viewpoint of a completely new player who has not had a chance to pick a main. These tiers are supposed to rank characters based on how effective they are against how many of the other characters in how many different situations (such as stages), right? The problem is that people are biased towards characters they like personally, as not many people have had a chance to play every against every character with an equal skill level. If you wanted to make a truly good list, wouldn't you just look how many "counters" each character has? I think once you guys come to an agreement (well the closest to it), you will find that the top characters are pretty even.

From a new player's point of view, the tier, and therefore character choice depends on who is easy to use (maybe even the best charactes for button mashing). This means moderation in all aspects, not too fast, not too strong and not too complicated of movesets. Ere go, you won't see many brand new players choosing to main such characters as Bowser, Sonic, or Snake. What you will see a lot of us new players doing is picking characters like Meta Knight, Kirby, Starfox characters, or the Links, sometimes based on who they used against computers in "campaign modes". Someone had already said the list would be different based purely on skill level of the player, and I agree-there is no way I can play Snake as effectively as Yoshi as a beginner, but it seems that the general consensus is the reverse.

I hear a few people mentioning the best lists so far, and am wondering where they are (sorry I have not looked through 185 pages....).

I want to try to get better, but do not want to pick a character that will be deemed lower tier, as I will wrongly be able to blame losses on my character, instead of what is my skill. Also I do not know if it is just me, but I have a problem with the idea of choosing a character that a lot of others use.

ur character should not be chosen according 2 a tier list....my opinion is all the characters r alot more equal than they were in melee and also just becuz u play with a high tier chacter does not mean u will win

 

[BDawgPHD]

According to Mew2King, the four best characters in Brawl, in order, are:

Meta Knight
Falco
King Dedede
Snake

G&W and Olimar are good too. He also said that:

Snake counters Meta Knight
King Dedede counters Snake
Falco counters King Dedede
Pit counters King Dedede


FlyingMudPuppy: you need to play around with all the characters until you find one you're comfortable with. You can change them if you're trying to win, too, but don't look at the tier list and try to choose from the top tiered characters, especially since people are ******** and the tier list gap between best and worst isn't ginormous.

 

[Repryx]

sonic can pull out good mindgames since he has multiple spin attacks......he also has excellent combo ability...it might b like melee but hes 1 of the few characters in brawl who can combo.....and yes sonic has killing moves f-smash,d-smash, bair and uair.......unless u understand how a character works u shouldnt be the one to say if he sucks or not

Sonic can be good but you named Cero reasons as to why As Sonics Kill Moves are unreliable with low prority...its easier to catch a person with a string of moves as opposed to a sonic combo. Also Sonics combos are easy to punish if you miss. His reedeming features are hit speed, gimping homing attack and ability to get kills by owning the stage.

Sonics Kill moves dont Kill

-Ciao

 

[raptyrX]

your name is really close to mine... im scared.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I've made a lot of updates to the SRK list.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

 

[BDawgPHD]

I've made a lot of updates to the SRK list.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

Bowser is FAR BETTER than low tier. Definitely mid tier, probably high tier. Also, MK is top of the tier list.

EDIT: I don't know why Ivysaur is below Mario and Sonic, I don't know why DK is in low tier, and I don't know why Ice Climbers are so high up (I haven't seen a good IC's, so that last one isn't such a flaming biggy)

 

[Corner-Trap]

Bowser is FAR BETTER than low tier. Definitely mid tier, probably high tier. Also, MK is top of the tier list.

EDIT: I don't know why Ivysaur is below Mario and Sonic, I don't know why DK is in low tier, and I don't know why Ice Climbers are so high up (I haven't seen a good IC's, so that last one isn't such a flaming biggy)

Just look in the IC's boards here on this very site, and I'm sure you'll see whats up with them. Or you can actually read the description for them on SRK. You're going to need to give better arguments for why characters need to be changed instead of just because you say so.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Just look in the IC's boards here on this very site, and I'm sure you'll see whats up with them. Or you can actually read the description for them on SRK. You're going to need to give better arguments for why characters need to be changed instead of just because you say so.

Well, I can cite Mew2King for MK being top of the list, so I don't have to go blue in the face wasting my knowledge on your nub *** ONCE AGAIN....

Bowser has a lot of good spatial control with his tilts and jab....they're very quick, have good range, and are strong. Also, his aerials are fast, he's generally faster than before, and his recovery doesn't completely blow ***. His neutral B is a good approach/damage builder against most characters. Don't have time to explain the rest, just trust that I know more than you, nubcake.

EDIT: Besides, you only put IC's high because you main them. Get on wifi so I can own your IC's with the boozer, and we'll see who should be ****in where on the tier list

 

[da K.I.D.]

bowsers better than he was in the last game, but hes still trash compared to the other chars. in THIS game. and for the most part whoever someone mains doesnt have anything to do with where they are on the list. I main and love sonic, and i think he might need to be LOWER on the list.
also, i dont know much about the IC's but it doesnt take much to see that they are gonna be beast mode.

check your stats again, i think the nubcake here is you

 

[BDawgPHD]

bowsers better than he was in the last game, but hes still trash compared to the other chars. in THIS game. and for the most part whoever someone mains doesnt have anything to do with where they are on the list. I main and love sonic, and i think he might need to be LOWER on the list.
also, i dont know much about the IC's but it doesnt take much to see that they are gonna be beast mode.

check your stats again, i think the nubcake here is you

Okay....seriously, anyone who doesn't think I know what I'm talking about needs to play me on wifi or shut the **** up. Any good Bowser player will tell you that Bowser is a really good character, and anyone who's played a good Bowser will tell you how good he is. I fall into both categories. So before you discredit me, allow me to prove my point the only way I can.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Well, I can cite Mew2King for MK being top of the list, so I don't have to go blue in the face wasting my knowledge on your nub *** ONCE AGAIN....

Bowser has a lot of good spatial control with his tilts and jab....they're very quick, have good range, and are strong. Also, his aerials are fast, he's generally faster than before, and his recovery doesn't completely blow ***. His neutral B is a good approach/damage builder against most characters. Don't have time to explain the rest, just trust that I know more than you, nubcake.

EDIT: Besides, you only put IC's high because you main them. Get on wifi so I can own your IC's with the boozer, and we'll see who should be ****in where on the tier list

God you're so immature, grow up already. We all agree that MK is top tier, but you're the only player I've ever seen on SWF or SRK who claims that MK is the indisputable best character in the game. Yet instead of explaining why you think so, you're just going to ride on M2K's ****. Why is it so hard for you to have a conversation without spouting off insults? Do you somehow lack the ability to calmly debate an issue? Also, how hard is it to simply go and read the IC's board so you can learn a **** thing about them. And it's funny how you're going to say that I have the IC's high up because I main them, yet you main MK and claim he's the best character in the game. I hope you see the hypocrisy in this.

 

[BDawgPHD]

God you're so immature, grow up already. We all agree that MK is top tier, but you're the only player I've ever seen on SWF or SRK who claims that MK is the indisputable best character in the game. Yet instead of explaining why you think so, you're just going to ride on M2K's ****. Why is it so hard for you to have a conversation without spouting off insults? Do you somehow lack the ability to calmly debate an issue? Also, how hard is it to simply go and read the IC's board so you can learn a **** thing about them. And it's funny how you're going to say that I have the IC's high up because I main them, yet you main MK and claim he's the best character in the game. I hope you see the hypocrisy in this.

I don't need to read about IC's because all I need to do is boot up my wii and check them out. An IC user will know a little bit more about the intricacies of them, but from what I've already seen and played, they're not terribly good, there are many characters that are better.

As far as arguments go, go back and read the last 5 pages, where I perpetually present evidence that shows that Meta Knight is the best character. *******. Try reading before you post, if you can help it. The reason I'm citing M2K is because you clearly won't listen to reason, so maybe you'll listen to someone who gets paid to play the ****ing game.

By the way, I've yet to receive your friend code, and I've yet to hear from anyone in that little BK community you got going.