Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Even though the one I brought up was bashed......It's still so much better than that one.....

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

YOU MUST BE JOKING!

Wolf for top tier? No way possible buddy. Toon Link has to be a few places down, MK should also be a little bit down (1 or 2 places). King Dedede, Pikachu and Fox in front of Falco? Is this guy serious?? Does he play this game? GW should also be a little higher, definitely above Pikachu and possibly Fox, that's for sure. I also can't understand how Falco is so low, hes ranked No. 2 on the Japanese char list.

What really annoys me the most is how everyone puts him under middle-tier. And what really frustrates me is I can imagine all these idiots turning up to tournaments around the world, not even playing Falco PROPERLY and then giving him a bad name of middle tier. I still can't understand how Pikachu can be above Falco, Falco counters Pika in almost every way. And he has advantages (in moveset) on almost all characters except for a couple. T

his isn't how the tier list will turn out.

You seem to be a falco fanboy the way you used more than half of your post defending him .

Toon Link seems fine where he is, Great recovery coupled with quick and high damage output seems to be a killer combonation. Wolf's Lone weakness may be his recovery, but a great majority of his moves are very good (Not sure on matchups though). Meta is either bottom of the Top or Top of the High. Didnt think you had to insult the dude so much, at least it's better than all those tier lists on Gamefaqs and other places with Spammer characters on top and unpopular but worthy characters on bottom.

And Like said earlier, Japan's Meta game seems to develop slightly different than ours. So whatever Japan's char list is is irrelevant for the most part. I think he got the general Ideas where each character in the tiers will be, he just needs to do a better job of arranging INSIDE the tiers.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Ike being low tier is just ignorance. Not saying you are stupid, but just lacking experience vs a good Ike. He's top of mid tier or bottom of the high. People say oh he has such glaring flaws, but really it's just that he is rather easy to gimp. This is fixed SOMEWHAT by switching up your timing and air dodging attacks before Aether, a move that has a lot more ledge reach than people realize. A good Ike is EXTREMELY hard to penetrate since his aerials become amazing when spaced properly. Add his high weight, immense power and a top 3(if not THE best) Jab combo and he simply isn't low tier.

Luigi in low tier is also ignorance. Luigi has no real weakness actually. His move set in general is insane and his damage output is decent. Top 5 aerials, really good air maneuverability, etc. Not low tier.

DK is also not low tier. DK is just good in general. He has deceptive priority with bair, forward tilt, down tilt and anti side step/roll with down special. DK punch has invunerbility frames, down smash is among one of the best block punishes in the game.

PT low tier is also a joke. Ivysaur isn't very good, but if you're going to judge him as an overall character there is no way Charizard or Squirtle are low tier.

WOLF MID TIER? Ok I'm done. Not even worth breaking down anymore.

Please people, play good people and have a decent knowledge of the game before attempting to talk tiers.

I have played sethlon one of the best Falcos in the world. The best Roy in the world in melee.
I played Zyro and others on that level like Gabe so watch it it's not ignorance Pokemone trainer giant falw is switching the pokemon
I made a mistake on wolf he was supposed to be high tier
Dk desserves his spot put that could change
Luigi is decomated by the high tier chars (toon link nuff said)
Thanks you for posting in a nice manner
Ike to predictible and slow ask sethlon ( the best roy on earth )

 

[adumbrodeus]

You seem to be a falco fanboy the way your defending him .

Which impacts his analysis how?

The person's status as a falco fanboy or not does not impact the truth of his analysis.

Also, you derived that from his analysis, so it's also a "no true scottsman" fallacy.



If you disagree, explain the flaws, otherwise don't post.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

i might bump ike up but iono ...... fanboy attack* throws rock and runs*
i wanna be a debater so bad....

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

I'm seeing Wolf appear in Top Tier a lot but not always Falco. From my experience they seem to do just as well in certain match ups and against each other they are pretty much equals.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

thise is kinda true but falco has more better matchups then wolf though.

SPACE ANIMALS RETURN!!!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I just find that Wolf just doesnt seem to have a single bad move (well, maybe his dash attack) In his arsenal.

Falco's changed Fsmash seems weaker than the other two, at least he can CG into a Dair spike.

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

I just find that Wolf just doesnt seem to have a single bad move (well, maybe his dash attack) In his arsenal.

Falco's changed Fsmash seems weaker than the other two, at least he can CG into a Dair spike.

I don't know about that. From what I have heard and experienced Falco has the best F smash of the three but Wolf has the best d smash. However, Falco's best weapon is his insane spike.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

thise is somewhat true my friend but falco has quicker lazers makes helps stop campers alot wolf has a hard time there
Falco moves for the most part have a faster start up
Falco can chain to 40 percent pretty easy
Falco moves faster so he has have a better chance to follow up and mindgame
Falco F air is bader than wolf
Wolf has more kill moves Falco f smash that doesn't work alot up smash and u air
Wolf smash d smash forward u air foward air and up B sometimes as well.

 

[VersatileBJN]

Wolf and Falco probably both top, but Falco should be higher.

CG into spike for the W

 

[Uncle Fitzy]

Wolf and Falco probably both top, but Falco should be higher.

CG into spike for the W

Falco's spike = God Tier

 

[PIMPSLAP]

nagh the macanics in brawl make it harder to do thise but it's still awesome but not god tier rob spike god tier though.... we cool versitile i post in response to what you said

 

[VersatileBJN]

I don't have a problem with you I just told you that your tier list is deeply flawed.

By the way, I don't see how Yoshi is bottom of the bottom. There's no way he has as many stupid match ups as ganondorf.

Ganondorf can't beat like half the roster. Yoshi's move set really isnt that bad.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

ok he is top of the bottom list the truth is nobody that wins alot of tourny's use him but i will say i like your post in responce to mine because you actually have some valid points good night every one on a side that list is my opinion of the tier as of now and is easily subject to change,,,, should change my last paragragh.

 

[Sean²]

disregard.

 

[House M.D.]

Wolf better not be top tier or i'll main someone else. i will not be generalized with the guys who pick their main by looking at the tier list.

****ing stupid *** tier ****.

so, because you don't want to be known for choosing your character because of what the tier list says, instead you're going to choose (change) your character because of what the tier list says...

 

[StripesOrBars]

Olimar Snake and DDD are top.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ganondorf can't beat like half the roster. Yoshi's move set really isnt that bad.

Correction, Gannondorf has a low win ratio against like half the roster.

In my expirience, he doesn't go below aprox. 30% assuming equal still however.

Of course, this is still prior to a lot of the meta-game advances, however, even gannondorf being seemingly the worst of the bunch really isn't that terrible.

As such the tiers seem to be much finer distinctions in Brawl, and since that means minor distinctions mean different tier placements, all that bad doesn't really cut it.

Who's he better then, and why? That's the important question for tier placement.

 

[Scicky]

Ike for High Tier (Not Top though, that's Pit and maybe TL)

I HATE (fighting) THEEEEM ;_;

so, because you don't want to be known for choosing your character because of what the tier list says, instead you're going to choose (change) your character because of what the tier list says...

You are quite possibly less ******** then 90% of smashboards :3

 

[StripesOrBars]

Smashboards.

Home to thousands of aspireing(sp?) *******.

 

[Snakeee]

Smashboards.

Home to thousands of aspireing(sp?) *******.

and people that can't spell correctly.
Haha, sorry I couldn't help it just messing.

 

[StripesOrBars]

I have a hard time spelling words that have E at the end with I N G.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Olimar Snake and DDD are top.

Snake yes olimar ddd high tier my friend

 

[StripesOrBars]

Nope.

Besides, not like anyone with a join date of post 06 would know what they're talking about any way.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nope.

Besides, not like anyone with a join date of post 06 would know what they're talking about any way.

*sigh* Ad hominem logical fallacy.

Logic is fundamental to any discussion, if we don't follow it, we might as well just use random strings of characters and rick-rolls as substitutes for discussion.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I don't think Wolf's bad recovery is enough to take him out of top tier, his move set is just really good. In 64 Ness was top tier, and in Melee Fox and Falco were top tier, and all three of them had terrible recovery. The past has shown us that bad recovery can be made up by good on stage power.

I played a pretty good Wolf, though, and he impressed me, but Wolf certainly didn't. Granted, I was Meta Knight, and MK is just too ****ing good. Either Meta Knight is the top of the list, or Wolf isn't top tier at all =3

Ummmm ok because like at a tournament there are five characters that are mainly used and than theres everyone else not the top tier characters hense a tier list.
so my tier list you could say is based of the most used in a tournament and the most tournament winning characters....

First of all, you forgot Meta Knight. Gimpyfish used him in that tourney that one time, and only lost to Snake (I'm probably wrong, but Gimpy beat a lot of guys, and his MK is just good, that's the point). BRoomers are gonna take that into account as well. I'm sure other characters have had similar success.

Second of all, there will be far more than 5 characters used in tournaments if you ask me. As Corner-Trap said, the gap between the best and the worst isn't tremendous like it was in Melee, and on another note there are a lot of "really good characters".

...Meta is either bottom of the Top or Top of the High. ....

Top of top....

*sigh*...seriously, I can't overstate how amazing a character Meta Knight is. He has the best recovery in the game...he's got amazing, disjointed range that puts Marth to shame (Brawl Marth, not Melee Marth )....his attacks have no lag, making him difficult to punish...he's difficult to combo, since he has multiple jumps and can jump out of situations without fear of getting gimped....he has many different approach options, and at least one of them will work on any given character....he's one of the few characters that CAN combo, and he's good at racking up damage.....and he has good killing power, he can combo to kills easily and can gimp some characters with ease, and most of his killing moves have no startup lag. I don't see why he's not the top. The only stage that puts Meta Knight at a disadvantage is a stage where the ceiling or the sides are capped off, since it limits Meta Knight to a specific method of killing, which messes with him a bit (Shadow Moses Island comes to mind...but I think any stages like that are banned anyway as of right now.)

Snake can kill at, like, 80%....but a good player will avoid his projectiles, even as he tries to set up the field....I'm not saying it's easy, trust me, Snake is a real problem, since he tries to limit approach options...but to Meta Knight, this doesn't matter, since Meta Knight has so many approaches and outranges Snake in close range combat, both with his aerial game and his ground game (which can be supplemented with speed and mind games).

Pit is like Meta Knight, except with slightly better killing power, not as good damage racking, and his recovery flat out sucks by comparison, not to mention it can be gimped.

Toon Link, again, is retardedly strong, but knowing the matchup helps MK well enough....I haven't played a Toon Link that really had me beat, though, so I don't know....someone help me out here (FC's anyone? )

Pikachu is just retardedly broken, with strength, lagless moves, spammable projectiles, and a hard-to-gimp recovery. Probably the toughest opponent to have to face unless you have better spam.

I just find that Wolf just doesnt seem to have a single bad move (well, maybe his dash attack) In his arsenal....

Most characters don't have a single bad move....the game was designed for you to rely on your entire moveset, and they did a good job of making the entire moveset for each character useful, save a few characters, and that's until we find a good use for them.

Besides, not like anyone with a join date of post 06 would know what they're talking about any way.

OBJECTION!

On the contrary, it's not like anyone with a join date before '07 would know anything about Brawl.

TAKE THAT!

 

[Corigames]

so, because you don't want to be known for choosing your character because of what the tier list says, instead you're going to choose (change) your character because of what the tier list says...

Sir, I want to congratulate you on winning an INTERWEB. You deserve it.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Nope.

Besides, not like anyone with a join date of post 06 would know what they're talking about any way.[/quot tha
so sence i joined later makes you smarter ok sure I placed the other 2 at high tier that don't win as much tourny's

 

[PIMPSLAP]

B dawg there was at least 50 to 100 more tournaments sense theni placed mk at the top of the high tier list my friend so i did not disregard him....
P.S.
My tier is the most accurate tier list so far in my opinion DDD is not top because he is counterd by toon link and snake and mk and olimar hense some of the most used chars in the tournament scene. sorry but he is still top tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Well, I said you disregarded him because he wasn't at the top, I know where you put him :-P

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Hmmmm.... could you clear thise up i do not understand you it's good that your on i like debating with you...

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

I played a pretty good Wolf, though, and he impressed me, but Wolf certainly didn't. Granted, I was Meta Knight, and MK is just too ****ing good. Either Meta Knight is the top of the list, or Wolf isn't top tier at all =3



First of all, you forgot Meta Knight. Gimpyfish used him in that tourney that one time, and only lost to Snake (I'm probably wrong, but Gimpy beat a lot of guys, and his MK is just good, that's the point). BRoomers are gonna take that into account as well. I'm sure other characters have had similar success.

Second of all, there will be far more than 5 characters used in tournaments if you ask me. As Corner-Trap said, the gap between the best and the worst isn't tremendous like it was in Melee, and on another note there are a lot of "really good characters".



Top of top....




*sigh*...seriously, I can't overstate how amazing a character Meta Knight is. He has the best recovery in the game...he's got amazing, disjointed range that puts Marth to shame (Brawl Marth, not Melee Marth )....his attacks have no lag, making him difficult to punish...he's difficult to combo, since he has multiple jumps and can jump out of situations without fear of getting gimped....he has many different approach options, and at least one of them will work on any given character....he's one of the few characters that CAN combo, and he's good at racking up damage.....and he has good killing power, he can combo to kills easily and can gimp some characters with ease, and most of his killing moves have no startup lag. I don't see why he's not the top. The only stage that puts Meta Knight at a disadvantage is a stage where the ceiling or the sides are capped off, since it limits Meta Knight to a specific method of killing, which messes with him a bit (Shadow Moses Island comes to mind...but I think any stages like that are banned anyway as of right now.)

Snake can kill at, like, 80%....but a good player will avoid his projectiles, even as he tries to set up the field....I'm not saying it's easy, trust me, Snake is a real problem, since he tries to limit approach options...but to Meta Knight, this doesn't matter, since Meta Knight has so many approaches and outranges Snake in close range combat, both with his aerial game and his ground game (which can be supplemented with speed and mind games).

Pit is like Meta Knight, except with slightly better killing power, not as good damage racking, and his recovery flat out sucks by comparison, not to mention it can be gimped.

Toon Link, again, is retardedly strong, but knowing the matchup helps MK well enough....I haven't played a Toon Link that really had me beat, though, so I don't know....someone help me out here (FC's anyone? )

Pikachu is just retardedly broken, with strength, lagless moves, spammable projectiles, and a hard-to-gimp recovery. Probably the toughest opponent to have to face unless you have better spam.



Most characters don't have a single bad move....the game was designed for you to rely on your entire moveset, and they did a good job of making the entire moveset for each character useful, save a few characters, and that's until we find a good use for them.



OBJECTION!

On the contrary, it's not like anyone with a join date before '07 would know anything about Brawl.

TAKE THAT!

You can believe this all you want but the fact is MK isn't much more impressive than any of the other current possible top tiers (Snake, Falco, TL etc).

I personally find MK to be a very easy character to fight. Though this is only limited to when I play my main, Falco. Though I haven't played any good MKs yet. I don't know that much about him, but from what I do know... He HAS to approach as he has no projectile. This means a Falco can use as many lasers as he wants, racking up damage better than any MK can imagine. This forces MK to approach from air, giving Falco the advantage of jumping or shorthop with uairs or bairs or just using USmash or u-tilt. There you go, the perfect way for a Falco to fight an MK. Anything else an MK can do is approach from the ground, where Falco can simply sheild. I mean, MK's side-B can easily be blocked with one extremely quick tap of the L/R buttons. Another problem solved. If I analysed MKs game more I could work out other tactics, but overall hes an awesome player. I don't see who would be better (apart from a couple of chars).

 

[PIMPSLAP]

You can believe this all you want but the fact is MK isn't much more impressive than any of the other current possible top tiers (Snake, Falco, TL etc).

I personally find MK to be a very easy character to fight. Though this is only limited to when I play my main, Falco. Though I haven't played any good MKs yet. I don't know that much about him, but from what I do know... He HAS to approach as he has no projectile. This means a Falco can use as many lasers as he wants, racking up damage better than any MK can imagine. This forces MK to approach from air, giving Falco the advantage of jumping or shorthop with uairs or bairs or just using USmash or u-tilt. There you go, the perfect way for a Falco to fight an MK. Anything else an MK can do is approach from the ground, where Falco can simply sheild. I mean, MK's side-B can easily be blocked with one extremely quick tap of the L/R buttons. Another problem solved. If I analysed MKs game more I could work out other tactics, but overall hes an awesome player. I don't see who would be better (apart from a couple of chars).

I played five good mk and the reason i'm about to he's good are as follows:
1.He is great at punishing
2.He's up b is a kill move with a LOT of frames and covers alot of space
3.Spams B the good mk makes himself un approachable with thise move
4. D smash is he's best move a kill move and has high prioty
Goes to high tier because and not top because my top tier have way better atributes
toon link decimates in the air. Massive priorty he also has camping and a decent camp that is.
G&W has the lest lag of all the chars with most of his attacks which makes him a aggressive tank
Snake what can i say almost all of his moves are kill moves he camp he mindgames he spaces and can spam.
Falco chain grab to 40 spam lazers hard to approach, spike Ftw

 

[BDawgPHD]

You can believe this all you want but the fact is MK isn't much more impressive than any of the other current possible top tiers (Snake, Falco, TL etc).

I personally find MK to be a very easy character to fight. Though this is only limited to when I play my main, Falco. Though I haven't played any good MKs yet. I don't know that much about him, but from what I do know... He HAS to approach as he has no projectile. This means a Falco can use as many lasers as he wants, racking up damage better than any MK can imagine. This forces MK to approach from air, giving Falco the advantage of jumping or shorthop with uairs or bairs or just using USmash or u-tilt. There you go, the perfect way for a Falco to fight an MK. Anything else an MK can do is approach from the ground, where Falco can simply sheild. I mean, MK's side-B can easily be blocked with one extremely quick tap of the L/R buttons. Another problem solved. If I analysed MKs game more I could work out other tactics, but overall hes an awesome player. I don't see who would be better (apart from a couple of chars).

Dodging projectiles isn't terribly hard, all it takes is some airdodge-jumping or approach on ground/spot dodging/power shielding. By the way, shielding only stops attacks....a lot of MK's punch comes from his grabs...his uthrow does 12 damage, and his dthrow does 11 damage and combos into fair. Even if MK has to fight in the air, he can, even against Falco. The thing with MK is that he does HAVE to approach most of the time, but he's built specifically as a character that is good at approaching. He has multiple ways to approach, multiple ways to damage, and multiple ways to kill. From what I know, Falco has two really good ways to kill - usmash and fsmash. Dair really only works against people with ****ty vertical recoveries, assuming that a good player won't get spiked unless if it was comboed into by chain grab. Avoiding those kills moves are easy....stay just out of range of both of them.

By the way, in case you haven't figured it out, I main Meta Knight, and I say he's the top because of his versatility and obscenely superb qualities, like recovery, ease in comboing, ease in damaging, and ease in killing.

EDIT: the points that I need to emphasize are that Meta Knight

A) is very versatile
B) has no bad matchups
C) has great strengths in every area
D) has no real weaknesses

None of the characters have this sort of versatility or this much strength.

Of course he's lighter than a lot of characters, and he doesn't have projectiles, but that's where the problems end.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

read the post bellow yours i stuck up mk but he's not top sorry i will br wrong probally.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

pimpslap, your tier list is really bad. you underestimate and overestimate so many different characters that it's not worth pointing out your individual mistakes.

also, your communication abilities are really bad. i would suggest that you stop making every other post in this thread until you can learn to spell with anything resembling accuracy and make a logically coherent post.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I must say, I have to agree with the bad grammar and spelling sentiment, but don't pick on him for that.

Also, how do you become a smash debater by title?

 

[Corner-Trap]

BDawgPHD, do you play any characters aside from MK? Throughout most of this thread you keep spouting off about how amazing MK is. I main the IC's and they are seriously underrated by a lot of players, but you don't seem me making every post saying how they should be top tier blah, blah, blah. Most people agree that he is top tier, but he is no more impressive then a lot of the other top tier candidates such as Pit, TL, Falco, etc. I'm not trying to be offensive in any way, just pointing it out.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Maybe I may be a little ignorant, but I dont find Pit to be Top Tier AT ALL. Top of the Mid-High or bottom of the High.


Sure his Arrow/Angel Ring spam is annoying, but his recovery is only good if your a bad edgeguarder and his Bair and Fsmash seem to be his only consistent killers.


He's good, but definatly not top tier material.