Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[PIMPSLAP]

Uh, DK's a beast...ever heard of Bum???

yep in MELEE where he was good i use him for fun all the time But thats for fun and 1,000,000,000 points to Bum making him competive.

 

[VEC]

i NEED A CHALLENGE, PM ME SONS

 

[PIMPSLAP]

after i get out of school vec i will add your Fc add mines know<->

 

[Florida]

So, after playing more with different characters, as well as playing against opponents who use these characters, I'd like to share another version of what I think the tier list will end up looking like. Guaranteed that my opinions will change and that I'll also be posting newer versions of this (though not regularly).

t o p t i e r

Marth
Metaknight
Toon Link
Falco
Diddy Kong
Wolf
Ike
King Dedede

h i g h t i e r

Snake
Pit
Olimar
Fox
R.O.B.
Mr. Game and Watch
Kirby
Luigi
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Squirtle
Lucas

m i d d l e t i e r

Ness
Mario
Charizard
Link
Zero Suit Samus
Peach
Ivysaur
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Wario

l o w t i e r

Sheik
Samus
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong

b o t t o m t i e r

Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Bowser

 

[Frown]

Hey, Yoshi is not bottom tier anymore.

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

Well... Someone has to be bottom tier.

And it can't possibly be Ganondorf... Can it!? =(

 

[philbobjoe]

Actually it can.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Yoshi mains REALLY seem to get touchy when Yoshi is placed in the bottom. I have only one thing to say...


Someone has to be down there...

Sure, Yoshi got buffed, we all saw it. He's better than Melee, WAY better. But... we aren't playing melee anymore. Psychics changed, tactics and stats that meant something then don't mean squat now.

That said, Yoshi doesn't mesh well in Brawl. In a game that demands either range or speed to keep aggressive, or a good projectile to camp, Yoshi got the short end of the stick.

Aggressively, he doesn't have anything but his Bair. But, once you figure out how to avoid it, your pretty sunk. Then you revert to camping... with a fairly crappy egg. So, if he can't camp as well as most of the cast, nor be aggressive like some of the cast, how can he be anything but bottom tier?

I'll give him this... he's better than Ganon. >.>

 

[TL?]

I think what makes putting together a tier list this time around is one thing. back in melee the gap from top tier to bottom tier was so much bigger than it will be for this game. Even the bottom tier is playable to an extent in brawl. people are seeing their favorite characters in mid-bottom and thinking thats all wrong, but a mid-bottom tier character doesnt mean they're completely unplayable this time around, they just arent as good as the top-high tiers.

 

[DiasFlac]

Yoshi is better then some people think.

 

[pidgey14]

Yoshi DOES have better things than just his Uair -_-'. Have you asked a pro yet? or have you just thought of Yoshi your way?

 

[pidgey14]

Yoshi has more good moves. Not just his Uair. -_-. well at least it's something "new" to them that most people have learned.

Edit- excuse me for double post. dunno what the posting system works in this forum XD

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Well, I definitely did NOT say his Uair was his best move, his BAIR, which was the one I mentioned, was the move I was referring to.

Because you seem to know know more of how Yoshi plays, tell me, how does Yoshi approach his opponent without getting punished? If can't approach, how does he force his opponent to approach him? (And don't say, USE THE EGG! The egg is far too easy to dodge or shield to cause me to approach you.

I ask this, because I can not conceive how Yoshi can do EITHER of things better than the VAST majority of the characters in the game. The only character I can see Yoshi doing these better than is Ganon, but thats because Ganon was made oh so badly.

 

[Wtfwasthat]

Here is a quick tier list i made up, it from my opinion not tourney results.

TOP TIER
Toon Link
Diddy
Marth
MK

HIGH TIER
ROB
Snake
Luigi(he is teh pwn)
Lucas
Kirby
G&W
Pikachu
Falco
Zelda
Squirtle
Fox
Wario
Pit

MIDDLE TIER
D3
Olimar (would be higher if had better recovery)
Ike
Wolf(I dont get whats so good about him?)
Ice climbers
Mario
Yoshi( he is teh shiz)
Peach
Bowser
Shiek
DK
Lucario
Ivysaur
Charizard
Jiggs

LOW TIER
C.Falcon
Samus
Ness
Link

BOTTOM TIER
Sonic
Ganondorf (Sad but true )

I am open for comments/critisism(sp?)

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

YOU FORGOT ZERO SUIT SAMUS.
Tourney Results: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=145722
High Tier, is pretty much agreed for her.

 

[pidgey14]

Well, I definitely did NOT say his Uair was his best move, his BAIR, which was the one I mentioned, was the move I was referring to.

Because you seem to know know more of how Yoshi plays, tell me, how does Yoshi approach his opponent without getting punished? If can't approach, how does he force his opponent to approach him? (And don't say, USE THE EGG! The egg is far too easy to dodge or shield to cause me to approach you.

I ask this, because I can not conceive how Yoshi can do EITHER of things better than the VAST majority of the characters in the game. The only character I can see Yoshi doing these better than is Ganon, but thats because Ganon was made oh so badly.

I do not want to cause any arguments with you or try to explain anything to you cuz it will be a complete waste of time. I say this cuz, like any Yoshi player or pro, I will get ignored. So what is the point in trying to explain anything? It WILL get ignored, AS USUAL.

I respect your opinion and all, but I am saying that Bair isn't the only thing that is good for him. But I guess that message will be ignored too.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I do not want to cause any arguments with you or try to explain anything to you cuz it will be a complete waste of time. I say this cuz, like any Yoshi player or pro, I will get ignored. So what is the point in trying to explain anything? It WILL get ignored, AS USUAL.

I respect your opinion and all, but I am saying that Bair isn't the only thing that is good for him. But I guess that message will be ignored too.

Well that's a piss poor attitude for a discussion. I'm not a Yoshi player. Hell, I've only played one Yoshi in a 1v1, and I KNEW he wasn't good (used nothing but the egg roll attack). If you want to break the stereotype surrounding Yoshi, its kinda expected that you would at least try to explain why he doesn't suck.

I've seen the Captain Falcon players do it, in fact, I've had one Falcon player SHOW me why he didn't suck, and completely whooped me. He showed me how Captain Falcon was able to use pivoting with Fox Trots and Dash Dancing to approach me, despite the nerf in speed. He was able to show me that his aerial game is still respectable despite the nerfs. He was able to show me how Falcon compared to the other CHARACTERS in this game, so that I would stop comparing him to the other GAME.

Yoshi players however, seem to never DO this. They rant about how much better he is than he used to be. That's NOT relevant, which is why you get ignored. If you want to convince the Smash community that he doesn't suck, you have to be willing to show how he compares to the other CHARACTERS, not to the other GAME. I have yet to see this.

Thus, why I'm asking you how Yoshi approached or forces an approach, because that's all that really matter in THIS game.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

give it up, yoshi mains.

people will keep placing yoshi in bottom tier, just like they will keep splitting up the MOTHER ****ING POKEMON TRAINER WHO CANNOT LOGICALLY BE SPLIT APART.

jesus christ. it's like people don't even recognize that you can't ****ing play as one pokemon for the whole fight and their ****ty "i'm looking at match ups lolz" mentality doesn't work in this context. but hey, grasping that concept would require pulling your other hand out of your *** to type something coherent, i guess.

 

[Terranrox]

Please stop arguing... and also hasnt this matter on things being too early have tier list... I mean really lots of people are trying to say to wait for a year or so for tier list. I'm sure dozens of people has already told you guys to stop guessing but I just feel its like...

I mean honestly hasnt Yoko and SamuraiPanda say please stop doing this kind of thing in the pod casts

 

[Dynamism?]

Yoshi mains REALLY seem to get touchy when Yoshi is placed in the bottom. I have only one thing to say...


Someone has to be down there...

Sure, Yoshi got buffed, we all saw it. He's better than Melee, WAY better. But... we aren't playing melee anymore. Psychics changed, tactics and stats that meant something then don't mean squat now.

That said, Yoshi doesn't mesh well in Brawl. In a game that demands either range or speed to keep aggressive, or a good projectile to camp, Yoshi got the short end of the stick.

Aggressively, he doesn't have anything but his Bair. But, once you figure out how to avoid it, your pretty sunk. Then you revert to camping... with a fairly crappy egg. So, if he can't camp as well as most of the cast, nor be aggressive like some of the cast, how can he be anything but bottom tier?

I'll give him this... he's better than Ganon. >.>

I'm glad you want some argument in Yoshis favor lol (though not mentioned in this post)

First of all, the games aerial floatiness and momentum game is really something that is beneficial for Yoshi. Along with characters like DK and Ness and many of the lower tiered characters in melee. No DJC is great too. Yoshi had all the tools for chasing, gimpy and all around off stage play but couldn't use them as he couldn't get back. So the physics have really made Yoshi better as much or more than most of the other characters that came through the cross over. (and I wont mention melee again)

Yoshi has speed, as much as Mario, Wolf or any of the mid weights anyway, but he's heavy and has aerial prowess that can match the likes of Wario in movement and Ness in diversity. That's why characters like Marth and MK struggle with him. He also has range that's second to only swordsmen and has power behind it too.

ftilts, dashA, grabs, Nair, Bair and dtilt are all he really needs in terms of approach and aggressive play. (which is plenty compared to many) Even things like downB and dash Upsmash are effective yet can be situational.

The egg can actually be quite a useful tool. It might not be a solid camping tool but it's just as effective as anything else when it comes to projectiles. Any character that needs to get through campers (like a Marth for example) will get through the camper either way. The egg will actually do as much damage and cause the opponent to react just as well as any camper but in a shorter time span as they get through it quicker. It also provides Yoshi with one of the best recoveries in the game. (next to the flyers of course)

Yoshi has some of the most reliable finishers a character can have, he can chase with the best and rack up damage with the best. He's not all bad. Just his.......
I can't really thing of much bad about him lol
Spike, juggling with Uair, utilt, ftilt into downB. Great defensive game with Nairs, dsmash and good jabs. Good grab game, good recovery, good versitility and range. What is there that makes him so bottom tiery?
I guess he can't jump out of sheild...that's a bummer, at least he can spot dodge and PSing is as easy as properly DIing

MOTHER ****ING POKEMON TRAINER WHO CANNOT LOGICALLY BE SPLIT APART.

SO TRUE

Terranox, lighten up. Tiers mean nothing right now, EVERYBODY knows this. That's why it's fun to discuss. And also somewhat informing. Like the fact that Yoshi is high tier
lol jk...maybe

 

[DiasFlac]

Ima start playing Yoshi more so I can get good with him then start pwning some of you guys who thinks he's "Low tier" (not that I care for tiers. Tiers are for queers)

 

[Corigames]

Ima start playing Yoshi more so I can get good with him then start pwning some of you guys who thinks he's "Low tier" (not that I care for tiers. Tiers are for queers)

I would be surprised if you got good with Marth.

 

[DiasFlac]

I would be surprised if you got good with Marth.

Thats what she said

 

[Tug]

I'm actually pretty great with Yoshi, his dair is overrated and only useful in a few isolated cases. Egg game is actually one of his best strengths to camp with if you actually know how to use them, his Uair is an easy kill, and his tilts and smashes have great range and kill potential. Even his bair is pretty great for catching people off guard on the ground. His throw is still **** slow, though, and his egg roll is actually useful now! Oh, and while his fair spike has been greatly nerfed, it's still relatively easy to time and pull off for an easy kill.

I wouldn't say he's the best character in the game or anything, but personally I find him much better than a lot of people give him credit for. In my experience he plays a lot like a better version of Mario. Deserves to be around mid tier or high low tier.

I'd be up for proving his worth anytime.

 

[BDawgPHD]

wow... um i guess but what i'm saying is look dk is so un natrally predictible it's not funny and MK is top tier easily But your intitled to your opinion

P.S In all Honesty i counter pick i have no main. i do like certain chars but thats it.
So tier are pretty useless in my opinion but i do like going through charecter matchups and seeing everyone weakness

P.S.S. Did you get Banned only your 6 post and your here hmmm....

hey Dynamism is epic, doesn't matter who he is or where he came from, don't give him **** you butthole.

 

[DiasFlac]

hey Dynamism is epic, doesn't matter who he is or where he came from, don't give him **** you butthole.

thats right insult him. That'll get you somewhere...

You sure showed him.

 

[Slike]

I don't think I should make a tier list. It's for your **** play style. The characters are so freaking different, even the clones. I main pretty much everyone in the game except Peach, Ike, Marth, Game and Watch, Samus/ZSS, and the third parties.

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

LOL. Its funny how all of you are talking about Yoshi's **** potential, when Falco's potential is being discovered daily. I mean, the Falco crew and I have just discovered an EASY way of LASER-LOCKING. Check it out. =P

 

[Rx-]

Meta Knight and Snake will be top tier forever. This is my hypothesis.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snake=/=top tier

Anyone who thinks so really need to stop kidding themselves.

 

[k4polo]

I really don't think it matters if snake is top or high tier. Fact is that he will be a big threat in high tourney level play.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I really don't think it matters if snake is top or high tier. Fact is that he will be a big threat in high tourney level play.

Um it does.
Top tier would mea he has little weaknesses, no major matchups that counter him.

he isn't going to be that much of a threat.
His grenades are inferior to Link's bombs since they don't explode unless the opponent hits them or until the timer is up. His nikita bomb leaves him vulnerable.
His c4 is difficult to stick to an opponent and is useful only for edgeguarding or bomb recovery.
his cypher moves predictably and has no SA so a strong enugh attack like a tilt will knock him out of it.

His aerial ability sucks horribly in comparison to true top tier characters like MK/Marth.
His ground game is pretty decent but slightly lacking since it is laggy and means he will be punished if he doesn't try controlling the game.

Top tier? no
high tier? more likely
middle tier? possible as well though he'll be high on it to say the least.

But hey who cares about logical discussion and actual strategy.

 

[Lenvil]

I don't think I should make a tier list. It's for your **** play style. The characters are so freaking different, even the clones. I main pretty much everyone in the game except Peach, Ike, Marth, Game and Watch, Samus/ZSS, and the third parties.

there are no clones.

 

[k4polo]

Well dude you keep thinking that. There are alot of expert Snake players out there that thoroughly disagree with you. You listed some disadvantage but he has alot of advantages too which one is that he can control the stage with explosives.

An expert snake will be Very very hard to beat. Hes even top tier in Japan from the early tier list and has won some tourneys in America. Top tier or not Snake will give trouble to any character. And yes Snake is my secondary.

I also disagree with alot of what you said. Grenades greater than Link's bomb. As Snake can cook the bombs and throw the timing off. He can throw two grenades and lead to devastating traps. He is a trap based character that control the stage with explosives.

Take a look a PsychoMidget.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Snake definitely gives people a lot of trouble, especially people that play a good Snake for the first time. I think a good player will learn how to deal with Snake easily enough.

 

[pidgey14]

Well that's a piss poor attitude for a discussion. I'm not a Yoshi player. Hell, I've only played one Yoshi in a 1v1, and I KNEW he wasn't good (used nothing but the egg roll attack). If you want to break the stereotype surrounding Yoshi, its kinda expected that you would at least try to explain why he doesn't suck.

I've seen the Captain Falcon players do it, in fact, I've had one Falcon player SHOW me why he didn't suck, and completely whooped me. He showed me how Captain Falcon was able to use pivoting with Fox Trots and Dash Dancing to approach me, despite the nerf in speed. He was able to show me that his aerial game is still respectable despite the nerfs. He was able to show me how Falcon compared to the other CHARACTERS in this game, so that I would stop comparing him to the other GAME.

Yoshi players however, seem to never DO this. They rant about how much better he is than he used to be. That's NOT relevant, which is why you get ignored. If you want to convince the Smash community that he doesn't suck, you have to be willing to show how he compares to the other CHARACTERS, not to the other GAME. I have yet to see this.

Thus, why I'm asking you how Yoshi approached or forces an approach, because that's all that really matter in THIS game.

Well why do they show on videos the proof but still get ignored then? They show you video clips of what he has, and what differences there are, but they have been ignored... *thinking* oh yeah, COUNTLESS TIMES! that is why they rant. and what do you mean, "other GAME?" It has been the ignorant ones who think he is like Melee, not us.

If you wanna see someone who is real good with Yoshi, shows you what he has, then Brawlcentral is the place to go

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Um it does.
Top tier would mea he has little weaknesses, no major matchups that counter him.

he isn't going to be that much of a threat.
His grenades are inferior to Link's bombs since they don't explode unless the opponent hits them or until the timer is up. His nikita bomb leaves him vulnerable.
His c4 is difficult to stick to an opponent and is useful only for edgeguarding or bomb recovery.
his cypher moves predictably and has no SA so a strong enugh attack like a tilt will knock him out of it.

His aerial ability sucks horribly in comparison to true top tier characters like MK/Marth.
His ground game is pretty decent but slightly lacking since it is laggy and means he will be punished if he doesn't try controlling the game.

Top tier? no
high tier? more likely
middle tier? possible as well though he'll be high on it to say the least.

But hey who cares about logical discussion and actual strategy.

All I can say to this... is that you haven't played a half decent Snake yet.

Anyone who has says he's amazing. And there's a reason for it.

Pure control; Snake can control the ENTIRE stage, forcing you to go where he pleases. If you don't, you get a whole lot of explosive gases in your face.

C4 + Downsmash = two places on the stage you can't land safely.

Nikita = Perfect camping tool because you can aim it ANYWHERE.

Grenades.... oh man, they are just the icing on the cake! Using them, he can essentially dynamically make two more places on the stage no longer safe. Or, he can just cook and throw, using them as a camping tool. Sure, they aren't as good as Link's bombs, but have enough uses when combined with his other explosives to piss you off.

Now, if you happen to bypass all of this control, then excellent, you outplayed the Snake. But if he's equally, or superiorly skilled, this won't happen often. Your going to be forced to approach in a way you don't want to. That leaves you vulnerable to:

1) His damaging grabs
2) His brutally powerful jab combo
3) His RETARDEDLY powerful f-tilt combo
4) His quick, safe and powerful dash cancelled Upsmash

Weaknesses? He's only really got one when he's played right... his recovery. But even then, only certain characters have hard enough hitting aerials to counter this move

He's not laggy enough to truly punish, because his best kill moves (f-tilt and Upsmash) are extremely difficult to punish. . Everything else is just setting you up FOR those moves. Simpily put ShadowLink, I don't think you've played a good Snake yet. >.>

Well why do they show on videos the proof but still get ignored then? They show you video clips of what he has, and what differences there are, but they have been ignored... *thinking* oh yeah, COUNTLESS TIMES! that is why they rant. and what do you mean, "other GAME?" It has been the ignorant ones who think he is like Melee, not us.

If you wanna see someone who is real good with Yoshi, shows you what he has, then Brawlcentral is the place to go

Videos are NEVER a good way to show potential. Never HAVE been. This is because you can't examine the skill levels of the loser nearly as well. A Yoshi ****** a player who is less skilled than him is expected. And, in this infant metagame, there isn't anyone who we can deem "pro" or even "good" for that matter, so saying that a yoshi beat a certain player isn't credible either. Thus videos = bunk.

I shall be challenging any Yoshi's I can, just to get a better idea of how good he is. I'm willing to admit that I'm very wrong about Yoshi, IF I'm proven otherwise (like I was with Captain Falcon). But until I see that, I'll hold to my opinion that Yoshi lacks enough of an approach or camping game to excel in Brawl.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

****, double post. -.-

 

[killaxmayne]

I have noticed a ton of people are doubting Yoshi but I don't see him being bottom tier. However, even if he is, that doesn't mean he is unplayable simply because of how even this game is. The bottom will not be as bad as it was in Melee.

I like how Wolf and Olimar are getting some attention though I don't either of them being the overall best because of the recovery (though top tier would not be a surprise).

My predictions for best would have to be wavering between Snake, Diddy, Pit, and perhaps Toony.

EDIT: Actually with that being said, with those being Top, it would look pretty crowded with Olimar and Wolf there.

 

[Dynamism?]

hey Dynamism is epic, doesn't matter who he is or where he came from, don't give him **** you butthole.

Where did this come from? lol
Do you know me from somewhere else or remember me from a ways back?
And when did I get banned? wtf?! lol

I really don't think it matters if snake is top or high tier. Fact is that he will be a big threat in high tourney level play.

You can say that about nearly every character in the game.

Well dude you keep thinking that. There are alot of expert Snake players out there that thoroughly disagree with you. You listed some disadvantage but he has alot of advantages too which one is that he can control the stage with explosives.

An expert snake will be Very very hard to beat. Hes even top tier in Japan from the early tier list and has won some tourneys in America. Top tier or not Snake will give trouble to any character. And yes Snake is my secondary.

I also disagree with alot of what you said. Grenades greater than Link's bomb. As Snake can cook the bombs and throw the timing off. He can throw two grenades and lead to devastating traps. He is a trap based character that control the stage with explosives.

Take a look a PsychoMidget.

So the disadvantages and advantages have been stated. Verdict anyone?
The was I see it, is that if you keep him moving, he's screwed. I have yet to lose to a good Snake player (and I've played a dozen, including some that practice with Psychomidget and Zjiin [if you want to throw names in the mix]) I just have a thing for beating Snakes (Olimars too lol) His options are actually very situational and have to be put in motion sort of in advance (hard to explain, but with spacing and moving early), so if you don't give him time, even just jumping nearby pressures him, then his options run out and he has to resort to things like tilts and dash game. Though usefull, it only goes so far. High is possible, Top is out of the question, Mid is more likely. I use every character and Snake just doesn't match up to have huge advantages over any. A very hit-and-miss sort of outcome with him at the highest level.

Snake definitely gives people a lot of trouble, especially people that play a good Snake for the first time. I think a good player will learn how to deal with Snake easily enough.

A good Snake player can deal with good Snakes easily. And eventually everyone will figure him out when the metagame develops. QFT I guess.

All I can say to this... is that you haven't played a half decent Snake yet.

Anyone who has says he's amazing. And there's a reason for it.

Pure control; Snake can control the ENTIRE stage, forcing you to go where he pleases. If you don't, you get a whole lot of explosive gases in your face.

C4 + Downsmash = two places on the stage you can't land safely.

Nikita = Perfect camping tool because you can aim it ANYWHERE.

Grenades.... oh man, they are just the icing on the cake! Using them, he can essentially dynamically make two more places on the stage no longer safe. Or, he can just cook and throw, using them as a camping tool. Sure, they aren't as good as Link's bombs, but have enough uses when combined with his other explosives to piss you off.

Now, if you happen to bypass all of this control, then excellent, you outplayed the Snake. But if he's equally, or superiorly skilled, this won't happen often. Your going to be forced to approach in a way you don't want to. That leaves you vulnerable to:

1) His damaging grabs
2) His brutally powerful jab combo
3) His RETARDEDLY powerful f-tilt combo
4) His quick, safe and powerful dash cancelled Upsmash

Weaknesses? He's only really got one when he's played right... his recovery. But even then, only certain characters have hard enough hitting aerials to counter this move

He's not laggy enough to truly punish, because his best kill moves (f-tilt and Upsmash) are extremely difficult to punish. . Everything else is just setting you up FOR those moves. Simpily put ShadowLink, I don't think you've played a good Snake yet. >.>





Videos are NEVER a good way to show potential. Never HAVE been. This is because you can't examine the skill levels of the loser nearly as well. A Yoshi ****** a player who is less skilled than him is expected. And, in this infant metagame, there isn't anyone who we can deem "pro" or even "good" for that matter, so saying that a yoshi beat a certain player isn't credible either. Thus videos = bunk.

I shall be challenging any Yoshi's I can, just to get a better idea of how good he is. I'm willing to admit that I'm very wrong about Yoshi, IF I'm proven otherwise (like I was with Captain Falcon). But until I see that, I'll hold to my opinion that Yoshi lacks enough of an approach or camping game to excel in Brawl.

You pretty much explain the just of Snakes game lol. Throw in a few SHUairs, dtilts, utilts, SHNairs, SHDairs, his great sexkick Bair and you have it.
The problem (which is major, and will cost Snake possibly even high tier) is that you have to plant one mine, and you can blow up from it. You have to plant and trigger the other. Grenades take time to throw and against someone who knows Snake, anytime Snake pulls out a grenade results in Snake getting in trouble. He can't cover angles well, I've noticed that Snakes get in a panic when I fight them because that can't get set up for a jab or ftilt or dash A Upsmash. A lot more utilt is thrown and Bair becomes a good escaping tool because they cover a nice little area that Snake can't reach often. This opens them up.

Snake is actually one of the most predictable characters. Weird isn't it?
My Snake absolutely crushes people. Especially people that don't know Snake. But I know that when they do figure it out, I wont be winning with so much ease. And other Snake players have told me this as well. Even before I play them and they realize how true it is.

And sounds to me like you haven't played a good Yoshi
I haven't even played a Yoshi, but it's the same thing. My Yoshi is undefeated in tourneys, but I know that wont last