Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[JayBee]

Sonic is trash. just cause he wins one tournament in houston,tx doesnt mean hes amazing.

Top 5 characters will be meta,falco,olimar,pit and marth.

um, yeah, because Sonic won, that auto means he's not trash. Sonic has definate counters to him, but he's mid tier, maybe upper mid tier right now. I'd give it a few more months though because it takes a lot to master his speed. Maybe when you play him, he's trash, but Sonic is awesome despite the fact you can't hor projectiles, throw a random sword out, or put bananas on the field. If the only characters that give him a really hard time are the top tiers, how is he trash?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

And sounds to me like you haven't played a good Yoshi
I haven't even played a Yoshi, but it's the same thing. My Yoshi is undefeated in tourneys, but I know that wont last

Thats very true, I haven't played a good Yoshi. Thats why I've been asking people how he plays/what approaches because MY understanding of the character is limited to poorly played and a more poorly USED Yoshi.

I can see where your logic comes with Snake now. Essentially your saying "Get pressure on him before he can establish stage control". That makes a lot of sense, I guess I have a heck of a lot of bad vibe with him because I use Ike, who doesn't have the speed to pressure that quickly. xD

Fox and Sonic would be good counter picks in your words then?

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Snake is most likely going to be at the top of the high tier, like Peach in Melee. He has a lot more tricks and punishments than most people know, like the fact that c4 stick, up tilt, detonate combo can KO at 50%. However, he can't move very fast and a lot of his moves have punishable lag.
I think Marth has the best shot at being top tier. If not, top of the top tier because he is IMO, the biggest threat in this game. He had a range nerf, but Marth players are learning how to use that to their advantage for close range combat. Also, his tipper, is still powerful and Marth is very quick.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

um, yeah, because Sonic won, that auto means he's not trash. Sonic has definate counters to him, but he's mid tier, maybe upper mid tier right now. I'd give it a few more months though because it takes a lot to master his speed. Maybe when you play him, he's trash, but Sonic is awesome despite the fact you can't hor projectiles, throw a random sword out, or put bananas on the field. If the only characters that give him a really hard time are the top tiers, how is he trash?

ANY character that has more range than him can beat him, quite simply. He has speed to get in your bubble, but no priority to win out clashes if you respond to him being in that bubble. So, if you have the range to respond to him before he hits you... well, he's done for. With characters have more range then him? Most characters!

Mindgames can allow him to get hits, but thats a matter of superior skill, and that is something that tier lists assume players are equal in. If my mindgames match yours, your never going to land enough hits to kill me before I kill you, especially with a character that only has two kill moves (and ones with small hitboxes/range I might add). >.>

 

[blackfox2765]

Um it does.
Top tier would mea he has little weaknesses, no major matchups that counter him.

he isn't going to be that much of a threat.
His grenades are inferior to Link's bombs since they don't explode unless the opponent hits them or until the timer is up. His nikita bomb leaves him vulnerable.
His c4 is difficult to stick to an opponent and is useful only for edgeguarding or bomb recovery.
his cypher moves predictably and has no SA so a strong enugh attack like a tilt will knock him out of it.

His aerial ability sucks horribly in comparison to true top tier characters like MK/Marth.
His ground game is pretty decent but slightly lacking since it is laggy and means he will be punished if he doesn't try controlling the game.

Top tier? no
high tier? more likely
middle tier? possible as well though he'll be high on it to say the least.

But hey who cares about logical discussion and actual strategy.

Some one has not analyized snake very well

1st his grenades are far superior to links bombs , perhaps not toon links since you can jump in the air throw the bomb down do interrupt a marths counter (since he is expecting a down sword thrust he might very well do this) or to interrupt some ones role and hit them with the sword thrust . But Snakes grenades throw an opponent very far at high damage and can be used to keep the enemy on there toes and farther away.

2nd his missiles is amazing u can break it @ any time with shield button and role away . If need be u can direct the missile release it with shield button and drop it on the opponent. Its also very effective at stopping charging opponents.

He does lack in air combat skills but dominants hard on the ground. What goes up must come down so he has plenty of ways to dominate an air character on there down time after they land....

Thats how i see him used by one of my friends and he does extremely well at keeping marths, falcos, foxs and shieks away on line.

 

[blackfox2765]

ANY character that has more range than him can beat him, quite simply. He has speed to get in your bubble, but no priority to win out clashes if you respond to him being in that bubble. So, if you have the range to respond to him before he hits you... well, he's done for. With characters have more range then him? Most characters!

Mindgames can allow him to get hits, but thats a matter of superior skill, and that is something that tier lists assume players are equal in. If my mindgames match yours, your never going to land enough hits to kill me before I kill you, especially with a character that only has two kill moves (and ones with small hitboxes/range I might add). >.>

agreed sonic is inferior unless the user can play amazing mind games on me. He has no recourse for long range attacks other than he can speed up onto ur bubble. But as a Zelda player many of my attacks can knock u away again. Sonic requires a lot of mind game playing... but with out it he is trash

 

[M.K]

Lucas compared to Ness? Higher IMO, this is a good discussion to me!

 

[PIMPSLAP]

hey Dynamism is epic, doesn't matter who he is or where he came from, don't give him **** you butthole.

He's lack of collness is over 9,000 i was asking if he got baneed i was not maessing with dude so chill and agree ZSS will be high or top tier easily look up sethon falco vids and tell me thats not top tier material....
Good day sirs/

 

[PIMPSLAP]

hey Dynamism is epic, doesn't matter who he is or where he came from, don't give him **** you butthole.

He's lack of collness is over 9,000 i was asking if he got baneed i was not maessing with the dude so chill and i agree ZSS will be high or top tier easily. As for falco look up sethon falco vids and tell me thats not top tier material....
Good day sirs/

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

give it up, yoshi mains.

people will keep placing yoshi in bottom tier, just like they will keep splitting up the MOTHER ****ING POKEMON TRAINER WHO CANNOT LOGICALLY BE SPLIT APART.

jesus christ. it's like people don't even recognize that you can't ****ing play as one pokemon for the whole fight and their ****ty "i'm looking at match ups lolz" mentality doesn't work in this context. but hey, grasping that concept would require pulling your other hand out of your *** to type something coherent, i guess.

qft

ten"charizardisn'tbottomtier****ers"s

 

[BDawgPHD]

Nice double post But yea, I'm just saying not to give him ****, he's obviously a smart, respectable dude. I'd say ZSS is easily high tier, but I don't know about top. She's pretty light, and I don't see her commanding control of the battlefield.

EDIT: You can more or less play as one pokemon for the whole game. All you have to do is stall with the other two in order to rest your pokemon of choice. Granted you'll want to use different ones for different matchups.

By the way, how do certain pokemon square off with other pokemon matchup wise? is it as obvious as it should be?

 

[PIMPSLAP]

You go to tourny BDAWG?

 

[pidgey14]

Christ, VulgarHandGestures. Just trying to explain something then you are having a huge rant like that? I ain't wanting or causing arguments or anything, so stop thinking that I am. -_-

 

[BDawgPHD]

You go to tourny BDAWG?

I'm counting on it I've played a few tourney-worthy people

 

[Corner-Trap]

Alright, before anyone starts ranting on me, especially BDawgPHD, here's the SRK list again. Quite a few positions have been changed to make the tier list a bit more orderly. If you disagree with something then please tell me so we can discuss it, don't make posts saying "fail", "lol", or anything to that degree.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

 

[BDawgPHD]

Alright, before anyone starts ranting on me, especially BDawgPHD, here's the SRK list again. Quite a few positions have been changed to make the tier list a bit more orderly. If you disagree with something then please tell me so we can discuss it, don't make posts saying "fail", "lol", or anything to that degree.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

I'm confused, did anything change?

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'm confused, did anything change?

Mostly the order of the characters, I tried to actually sort them out within the tiers themselves this time. Last time I just lumped them in the tier they belonged without having any order within the tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Mostly the order of the characters, I tried to actually sort them out within the tiers themselves this time. Last time I just lumped them in the tier they belonged without having any order within the tier.

Okay, so I can complain that Meta Knight should outright be the top of the tier list now, right?

Seriously, I think you guys should play some good people before you pass judgment. I know for a fact that Meta Knight is top of the tier list...I'm a testament to that. He has negligible risk for great reward, and just has so many options. I rant all the time about how Meta Knight is top of the list, give me reasons why he isn't, and I'll disprove them. Also, you still have a lot of characters who should be higher on the tier list, like DK and Luigi, the two that pop straight into my mind.

 

[Tien2500]

A few things...

First of all while I don't necessarily advocate splitting the Pokemon up you do need to take switching into consideration. For example Squirtle has low KO potential but he doesn't need to KO an opponent as you can just knock them far enough away and switch to Ivy.

Wario is pretty overrated. His approach as you said is bad and he doesn't have to tools to stay on the defensive. Not horrible but should be knocked down a few pegs.

I'd lower Zelda a few spots too. She's very good overall but horrible against Ness, Lucas, and G&W and somewhat gimped against Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

Also you really need to do some better explaining if you want to keep Mario on the bottom of the tier list. You mentioned a few flaws but in no way do those minor flaws amount to a bottom tier placement. His down B is largely useless but no moreso than Squitle who gets mid tier. His projectile isn't the best but he does have one which makes him better off than characters who have none. His reflector isn't the best but it is still pretty useful. Mario's approach is decent, his ground game is decent, and his air game is pretty good. So I really don't understand his dead last placement. Please elaborate.

Jigglypuff should be lower too. Rest being nerfed is very very detrimental to her . Her aerial game is weaker because she no longer is quite as agile in the air. Also since many other characters have very strong air games she's a bit gimped. Still has no way to deal with projectiles and while rollout is better it is not enough to make up for the other nerfs.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Okay, so I can complain that Meta Knight should outright be the top of the tier list now, right?

Seriously, I think you guys should play some good people before you pass judgment. I know for a fact that Meta Knight is top of the tier list...I'm a testament to that. He has negligible risk for great reward, and just has so many options. I rant all the time about how Meta Knight is top of the list, give me reasons why he isn't, and I'll disprove them. Also, you still have a lot of characters who should be higher on the tier list, like DK and Luigi, the two that pop straight into my mind.

First off, don't start with that whole SRK don't play good people thing again. Most of the people on SRK have SWF accounts, and lots of us have participated in many tournaments held by SWF players. You know next to nothing about our community, so get off our case already.

Now that I have that out the way we can actually have an intelligent conversation going. So far you're the only one I know that thinks MK is the top of the top tier. Most people agree that he's definitely top tier, but when it comes to being the top of the top tier, thats a bit more debatable and we may need more time to solidify that statement.

As for Luigi he is currently top of the mid tier, but it does sound reasonable to put him on the lower end of high tier. Many people have argued for DK to move up to the lower end of mid tier so I was already thinking of doing that as well.

EDIT:

A few things...

First of all while I don't necessarily advocate splitting the Pokemon up you do need to take switching into consideration. For example Squirtle has low KO potential but he doesn't need to KO an opponent as you can just knock them far enough away and switch to Ivy.

Wario is pretty overrated. His approach as you said is bad and he doesn't have to tools to stay on the defensive. Not horrible but should be knocked down a few pegs.

I'd lower Zelda a few spots too. She's very good overall but horrible against Ness, Lucas, and G&W and somewhat gimped against Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

Also you really need to do some better explaining if you to keep Mario on the bottom of the tier list. You mentioned a few flaws but in no way do those minor flaws amount to a bottom tier placement. His down B is largely useless but no moreso than Squitle who gets mid tier. His projectile isn't the best but he does have one which makes him better off than characters who have none. His reflector isn't the best but it is still pretty useful. Mario's approach is decent, his ground game is decent, and his air game is pretty good. So I really don't understand his dead last placement. Please elaborate.

Jigglypuff should be lower too. Rest being nerfed is very very detrimental to her . Her aerial game is weaker because she no longer is quite as agile in the air. Also since many other characters have very strong air games she's a bit gimped. Still has no way to deal with projectiles and while rollout is better it is not enough to make up for the other nerfs.

Yeah a lot of the placements are a bit skewed, thats why I'm trying to get thing cleaned up. Most people agreed upon tiering PT separately instead of as a whole. As far as Wario I always thought he was underrated since people keep putting him in low or bottom tier, but I can see moving him down lower on the mid tier. Zelda I'm a bit iffy on, I still think she should be on the higher end of the high tier, but not at the top of the high tier. As for Mario, it isn't so much of how bad he is, but more of how good everyone else is compared to him. Most of the time we simply couldn't find any match-ups where Mario had any noticeable advantageous in. Jigglypuff's already on the low end of the mid tier, but I still think she's good enough to keep her out of low tier.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I dunno Corner Trap. The community seems to have a pretty piss poor opinion of Ike. As the defensive game improves, its actually helping Ike a ton on his approach to campers. Perfecting powershielding, sidesteps and abusing the new airdodge is allowing Ike's (and the rest of the cast) to approach spammer while taking minimal damage. There are very few characters that can handle him once he's in range (Marth and Metaknight are the only two that come to mind).

That said, his "poor matchups" are becoming less relevant every day. What used to be ******** hard matchups are becoming managable, some matchups that we only against us because of projectile are now even.

Though, Ike players are seeing a huge meta shift with Pikachu, as the Pikachu players have discovered a very reliable and damaging chainthrow against a good chunk of the cast. Has anyone heard of this CJ?

 

[Corner-Trap]

I dunno Corner Trap. The community seems to have a pretty piss poor opinion of Ike. As the defensive game improves, its actually helping Ike a ton on his approach to campers. Perfecting powershielding, sidesteps and abusing the new airdodge is allowing Ike's (and the rest of the cast) to approach spammer while taking minimal damage. There are very few characters that can handle him once he's in range (Marth and Metaknight are the only two that come to mind).

That said, his "poor matchups" are becoming less relevant every day. What used to be ******** hard matchups are becoming managable, some matchups that we only against us because of projectile are now even.

Though, Ike players are seeing a huge meta shift with Pikachu, as the Pikachu players have discovered a very reliable and damaging chainthrow against a good chunk of the cast. Has anyone heard of this CJ?

Please lets stop mentioning the community, and just talk about the actual list. You make some very good points for Ike, and I know about Pika's CG just repeat Dtrhows, or Fthrows.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Guys..... I think I may have found one of the best Tier lists yet.


It's from a guy named LongHornfan10 on the Gamefaqs Brawl boards, It's seems nearly perfect (At least the one on page 3 if your pages are set to 50 posts per) He seems to change it quite often though.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

Low-Mid Tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Low tier:
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi

Or if you want his more condensed and even-er verison

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


Low tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Either Way, his looks awesome, and I have a feeling the official one will look similar to this

 

[Elbow]

It's out now and this much is obvious: G&W has really good smashes (all 3), great airials, some decent specials, an awesome dthrow, and a great recover (out of which he can attack!).

Don't even try and say he's not top tier. His Bair alone is top tier.

 

[pidgey14]

Guys..... I think I may have found one of the best Tier lists yet.


It's from a guy named LongHornfan10 on the Gamefaqs Brawl boards, It's seems nearly perfect (At least the one on page 3 if your pages are set to 50 posts per) He seems to change it quite often though.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

Low-Mid Tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Low tier:
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi

Or if you want his more condensed and even-er verison

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


Low tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Either Way, his looks awesome, and I have a feeling the official one will look similar to this

gameFAQS people = FAIL

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

Guys..... I think I may have found one of the best Tier lists yet.


It's from a guy named LongHornfan10 on the Gamefaqs Brawl boards, It's seems nearly perfect (At least the one on page 3 if your pages are set to 50 posts per) He seems to change it quite often though.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

Low-Mid Tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Low tier:
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi

Or if you want his more condensed and even-er verison

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


Low tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Either Way, his looks awesome, and I have a feeling the official one will look similar to this

YOU MUST BE JOKING!

Wolf for top tier? No way possible buddy. Toon Link has to be a few places down, MK should also be a little bit down (1 or 2 places). King Dedede, Pikachu and Fox in front of Falco? Is this guy serious?? Does he play this game? GW should also be a little higher, definitely above Pikachu and possibly Fox, that's for sure. I also can't understand how Falco is so low, hes ranked No. 2 on the Japanese char list.

What really annoys me the most is how everyone puts him under middle-tier. And what really frustrates me is I can imagine all these idiots turning up to tournaments around the world, not even playing Falco PROPERLY and then giving him a bad name of middle tier. I still can't understand how Pikachu can be above Falco, Falco counters Pika in almost every way. And he has advantages (in moveset) on almost all characters except for a couple. T

his isn't how the tier list will turn out.

 

[Mmac]

Nigerian Star Storm, I saw that Tier List on GameFAQs, and I really doubt it's that accurate. Also I find Yoshi on the very bottom hurtful. Not because he's there (actually, yeah, kinda), but his reasons why. Not only does he do the stereotypical "Has no Recovery Potential" and "Is useless without DJC", but also he added the fact that "his aerial are garbage except his Fair and Dair", All of it which is wrong. At least people like Trebor-Nella have some understanding when criticizing him.

Speaking of Trebor-Nella and his comment awhile back, I don't believe that Yoshi B-Air is his only approach. His Nair also works very well, and his Forward and Down tilt are also long ranged and come out lighting fast (F-tilt is also a great combo starter).

Also I don't think the Egg's are crappy. I find their flexibility of control a great Counter-Spam projectile, as well as a good anti-air projectile , plus throwing them straight up is a great way to deal with characters with STF Dairs. They don't seem to do as good of a job against opponents on the ground in Melee thought.....

Also now with the new Quick Pivot Grab technique, Yoshi actually has one of the best grabs in SSBB now.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

YOU MUST BE JOKING!
GW should also be a little higher, definitely above Pikachu and possibly Fox, that's for sure. I also can't understand how Falco is so low, hes ranked No. 2 on the Japanese char list.

What really annoys me the most is how everyone puts him under middle-tier. And what really frustrates me is I can imagine all these idiots turning up to tournaments around the world, not even playing Falco PROPERLY and then giving him a bad name of middle tier. I still can't understand how Pikachu can be above Falco, Falco counters Pika in almost every way. And he has advantages (in moveset) on almost all characters except for a couple. T

his isn't how the tier list will turn out.

I seriously think Pika is going to be near the top again. His chaingrabbing was all he needed. He already has speed, power, crazy priority and range. Quick attack cancels, jolts and thunders give him a very elusive and annoying game of keep away. The chain grab now makes it stupid hard to approach him if you happen to be one of the characters he can do it to.

As for Falco, he's going to be good, but how good... I'm still not sure. He's got locks, aerials, reflectors and nice Smashes, but is it enough to compete with many of the higher ranked characters? And remember, Japans list is always different. Their last list for melee had Sheik and Dr.Mario as Top Tier so.. obviously their metagame develops differently!

 

[Deleted member]

A few things...

First of all while I don't necessarily advocate splitting the Pokemon up you do need to take switching into consideration. For example Squirtle has low KO potential but he doesn't need to KO an opponent as you can just knock them far enough away and switch to Ivy.

Wario is pretty overrated. His approach as you said is bad and he doesn't have to tools to stay on the defensive. Not horrible but should be knocked down a few pegs.

Wario is under rated. He has a great approach (fair to bite, just bite, dair, ect.), has great priority in the air, the rediculous DI, can kill easily, can fart (come on, even if u dont hit, that alone makes him top tier =P) Id say hes on the upper end of middle, cuz disjointed hitboxes still hurt.

Alright, before anyone starts ranting on me, especially BDawgPHD, here's the SRK list again. Quite a few positions have been changed to make the tier list a bit more orderly. If you disagree with something then please tell me so we can discuss it, don't make posts saying "fail", "lol", or anything to that degree.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

Yoshi is higher. I know nobody will ever listen, but im gonna write a freakin essay about yoshis tier placement. I mean, hes probably mid of the mid, but he has quite a bit going for him. Also if u think mario is last... wow. He is one of the few characters that can combo. Oh no his down b is useless, that makes him bottom tier. Oh no, melee shieks side b and dare i say it, down b was useless in melee, i gues shiek was actually bottom tier. Fireballs are a decent projectile and help with his approach. Id say mid or higher.

Okay, so I can complain that Meta Knight should outright be the top of the tier list now, right?

Seriously, I think you guys should play some good people before you pass judgment. I know for a fact that Meta Knight is top of the tier list...I'm a testament to that. He has negligible risk for great reward, and just has so many options. I rant all the time about how Meta Knight is top of the list, give me reasons why he isn't, and I'll disprove them. Also, you still have a lot of characters who should be higher on the tier list, like DK and Luigi, the two that pop straight into my mind.

Well i thought i heard u had never been to a tournament, but i wont comment on that. Hes good, but he has faults like any other character. 1. Very light. Snakes ftilt kills at 80,while MK kills at 150+
2. Heavys are very good against him
3. Projectiles

 

[Flow Wolf]

Guys..... I think I may have found one of the best Tier lists yet.


It's from a guy named LongHornfan10 on the Gamefaqs Brawl boards, It's seems nearly perfect (At least the one on page 3 if your pages are set to 50 posts per) He seems to change it quite often though.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=928518&topic=42497436

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff

Low-Mid Tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Low tier:
Ganondorf

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi

Or if you want his more condensed and even-er verison

Top Tier:
Wolf
Toon Link
Meta Knight
Marth
Snake

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Pikachu
Fox
Falco
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar
Lucas

High-Mid Tier:
Zelda
Pit
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ike
Ice Climbers
Shiek

Mid Tier:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Wario
Lucario
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


Low tier:
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Peach
Link
Mario
Samus

Bottom Tier:
Ganondorf
Yoshi

Either Way, his looks awesome, and I have a feeling the official one will look similar to this

This one is actually pretty good. I belive that Fox and Zelda should be switched though.

 

[Corner-Trap]

One thing I've noticed about all this tier list debating is that absolutely no one is willing to accept where their character is placed. If a character is in mid, low, or bottom tier then players want that character to be moved up. People are gonna keep arguing for characters to be moved up until all we have is a top tier with all 35 characters in it. One thing I'd like to clear up with some people is that tier placements aren't always based on how bad a character is, but on how good every other character is compared to that character. So when characters like Yoshi and Mario end up in low or bottom tier, it isn't because they have a lot of glaring flaws, it's more that they simply don't pose many advantageous over other characters. Also, as of now the tiers for Brawl are a lot tighter than the tiers for Melee. Of course this might not hold up true in the future, but to give a visual representation of how things look now:

Melee's Best
|
|
|
| Brawl's Best
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Brawl's Worst
|
|
|
Melee's Worst

 

[BDawgPHD]

First of all, I think your assessment is full of aids, corner-trap. It's a nice thought, except it's impossible to compare the two lists in that way. To say that the best of Melee is better than the best in Brawl is completely irrelevant and inaccurate because they are two separate games. Melee Fox wouldn't survive very well in Brawl, with the airdodging system and all. I don't even feel like making more analogies.

I'll end by saying that every tier list I've seen, no matter how foolproof it looks at first glance, has at least one critical contradiction that breaks it. And I'm not just talking about MK's lack of topitude

 

[Corner-Trap]

First of all, I think your assessment is full of aids, corner-trap. It's a nice thought, except it's impossible to compare the two lists in that way. To say that the best of Melee is better than the best in Brawl is completely irrelevant and inaccurate because they are two separate games. Melee Fox wouldn't survive very well in Brawl, with the airdodging system and all. I don't even feel like making more analogies.

I'll end by saying that every tier list I've seen, no matter how foolproof it looks at first glance, has at least one critical contradiction that breaks it. And I'm not just talking about MK's lack of topitude

You completely misunderstood the point of that post. I wasn't saying that the best in Melee were better than the best in Brawl, I was saying that the gap between the best and the worst in Brawl is smaller than the gap in Melee.

 

[BDawgPHD]

You completely misunderstood the point of that post. I wasn't saying that the best in Melee were better than the best in Brawl, I was saying that the gap between the best and the worst in Brawl is smaller than the gap in Melee.

Oh, that makes a lot more sense then. I could see Ganondorf as a tourney-viable character, he's basically the new Bowser. But the last thing I said still stands, I'm not going to like a tier list if I see major problems with it, like characters placed way too high or way too low (I don't blame people that think this way.....as long as they can play a decent game against me ). And I've seen quite a few good players of each character, but not all of them obviously. I saw a good Wolf today, he was quite impressive, but I don't think Wolf should be top tier. His recovery still kind of sucks, and I didn't have to do any special finagling or learning to beat him, I sort of just had it. More proof that Meta Knight is just the best.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

i really have to ask, of the people that advocate splitting pokemon trainer in three, how many of them actually PLAY pokemon trainer? like, in a serious manner?

i ask, because of the pokemon trainer players i've heard from, only ONE of them supported splitting him up. the rest of them were in near-complete agreement that he should be kept as one character.

i find it interesting that an apparently large majority (based on my experience) of pokemon trainer players think of him as one character, and the self-important theorycrafters on the board just ignore the arguments and say LOLMATCHUPS and continue to split the pokemon trainer up.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Oh, that makes a lot more sense then. I could see Ganondorf as a tourney-viable character, he's basically the new Bowser. But the last thing I said still stands, I'm not going to like a tier list if I see major problems with it, like characters placed way too high or way too low (I don't blame people that think this way.....as long as they can play a decent game against me ). And I've seen quite a few good players of each character, but not all of them obviously. I saw a good Wolf today, he was quite impressive, but I don't think Wolf should be top tier. His recovery still kind of sucks, and I didn't have to do any special finagling or learning to beat him, I sort of just had it. More proof that Meta Knight is just the best.

I don't think Wolf's bad recovery is enough to take him out of top tier, his move set is just really good. In 64 Ness was top tier, and in Melee Fox and Falco were top tier, and all three of them had terrible recovery. The past has shown us that bad recovery can be made up by good on stage power.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

i really have to ask, of the people that advocate splitting pokemon trainer in three, how many of them actually PLAY pokemon trainer? like, in a serious manner?

i ask, because of the pokemon trainer players i've heard from, only ONE of them supported splitting him up. the rest of them were in near-complete agreement that he should be kept as one character.

i find it interesting that an apparently large majority (based on my experience) of pokemon trainer players think of him as one character, and the self-important theorycrafters on the board just ignore the arguments and say LOLMATCHUPS and continue to split the pokemon trainer up.

We'll see what happens when the Back Room decides on the tier list buddy. I would assume, them being far more experienced and reasonable players, realize the importance of keeping PT as a character.

However, I would not be surprised in the least if they rank him as a character AND his pokemon individually as well.

 

[Browny]

One thing I've noticed about all this tier list debating is that absolutely no one is willing to accept where their character is placed. If a character is in mid, low, or bottom tier then players want that character to be moved up. People are gonna keep arguing for characters to be moved up until all we have is a top tier with all 35 characters in it. One thing I'd like to clear up with some people is that tier placements aren't always based on how bad a character is, but on how good every other character is compared to that character. So when characters like Yoshi and Mario end up in low or bottom tier, it isn't because they have a lot of glaring flaws, it's more that they simply don't pose many advantageous over other characters. Also, as of now the tiers for Brawl are a lot tighter than the tiers for Melee. Of course this might not hold up true in the future, but to give a visual representation of how things look now:

Melee's Best
|
|
|
| Brawl's Best
| |
| |
| |
| |
| Brawl's Worst
|
|
|
Melee's Worst

this is the best post i have ever read in this farce of a thread

I dont particulary have a problem with people putting my mains, sonic ness and lucario on the lower end of the tiers, but when people blindly chuck their melee favourites and worsts in top and bottom thats when it gets annoying. its incredibly obvious how many people here havent played a decent bowser. And this isnt taking into account the bandwagon factor...

please if people intend on posting thier tier lists, write it up on another program without having smashboards open, then maybe your opinions wont be swayed by everyone copying each others lists

 

[PIMPSLAP]

I'm counting on it I've played a few tourney-worthy people

Ummmm ok because like at a tournament there are five characters that are mainly used and than theres everyone else not the top tier characters hense a tier list.
so my tier list you could say is based of the most used in a tournament and the most tournament winning characters.
TIER LIST:
Top tier
Falco
Snake
G&W

High tier
MK
Pit
Ice climbers
ZSS
Olimar
Marth
Toon link
Rob
King ddd
Wolf
Fox


Middle Tier
Pikachu
Wario
Sheik/and Zelda go here
Peach
Wolf
Fox
Lucas
Lucario
Diddy Kong


Low tier
Ness
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Mario
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Ike (fan boys will attack me
Kirby(this hurts me my favorite this low ouch)
Sonic
Link


Lower Tier?
Jiggs
Ganondorf
DK
Bowser
If i missed somebody sorry but this is the most accurate list out there right IN MY OPINION.
Some of thise will change. but not much will be different in a year or so. so let the critics come i will fight for my tier list!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[VersatileBJN]

Ike being low tier is just ignorance. Not saying you are stupid, but just lacking experience vs a good Ike. He's top of mid tier or bottom of the high. People say oh he has such glaring flaws, but really it's just that he is rather easy to gimp. This is fixed SOMEWHAT by switching up your timing and air dodging attacks before Aether, a move that has a lot more ledge reach than people realize. A good Ike is EXTREMELY hard to penetrate since his aerials become amazing when spaced properly. Add his high weight, immense power and a top 3(if not THE best) Jab combo and he simply isn't low tier.

Luigi in low tier is also ignorance. Luigi has no real weakness actually. His move set in general is insane and his damage output is decent. Top 5 aerials, really good air maneuverability, etc. Not low tier.

DK is also not low tier. DK is just good in general. He has deceptive priority with bair, forward tilt, down tilt and anti side step/roll with down special. DK punch has invunerbility frames, down smash is among one of the best block punishes in the game.

PT low tier is also a joke. Ivysaur isn't very good, but if you're going to judge him as an overall character there is no way Charizard or Squirtle are low tier.

WOLF MID TIER? Ok I'm done. Not even worth breaking down anymore.

Please people, play good people and have a decent knowledge of the game before attempting to talk tiers.