Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[BDawgPHD]

It's funny how Olimar doesn't drop below high even though Ivy would kick his tiny *** every time






I ASSURE YOU!!! NOTHING IS TRUE!!! NEVER!!!

jk
Seriously though, the ICs are fine online. Their chaingrabs can still be preformed as it's more of a feel thing rather than visual timing. Wolf is good but not great. MK is great but not good enough to be the best. Pika is possibly the best and that's obvious to anyone who knows anything about Pika. Falco is all good, same with Luigi, Zelda and half the cast. Marth isn't as good as he's thought to be. DK is a beast, Bowser can be too. Ike isn't very good, Sonic will be much better in time. PT is very underrated as far as his match up strengths are concerned. Pit is good, TLink is good, Diddy is good...etc etc...

I'm very puzzled though. At the same time I don't care so don't bother trying to clear this up for me. (I have an idea, I just like to think people would be smarter than that lol [no offense])

I STILL don't know where people got it in their heads that DK was worse than Marth at all in the first place. Same with much of the cast. We always talk about how MK isn't that great against Marth and Snake, then we compare all of those really easy to learn and very looked at characters, but at the same time as we discuss the match ups within each other, they lose to characters "lower" on the abundant personal tier lists, and we still think they are better than Yoshi, Ness, DK, ICs and Mario.

That's just lazy NOTHING SHOULD BE SURPRISING REGARDING CHARACTERS. Especially the characters people know nothing of. Possibly impressive, but surprising is just a sign that you need to look into this game more as a whole.

Like I said about 8 pages ago in this thread, I'll be surprised if Marth, MK and Snake are Top Tier and Yoshi, DK and Wario were bottom in just a few months. Maybe not surprised, but saddened because it will just go to show how twisted the perception is at this point.
Because that would make litterally ZERO SENSE to me.

And it will to you too if you look at this game from every side. It's more difficult than it seems, but it's the highest reward in those terms at this point.

Random = Broken... *cough*

Unless you a) Random a character that you yourself claim as bottom tier, or b) random a character that your opponent is already set to counter (e.g. you random Ganondorf when your opponent is using Ike)

But I agree...if you can learn how to use every character well, random is a very good choice for the reasons you've stated....but most people have one character that they are just comfortable with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

Snake needs to be lower. G&W needs to be higher (on the top pls, he is definitely better than the other high tiers posted). I've seen this matchup several times (Zjiin vs Cosmo thank you) and G&W really seems to have the advantage on Snake.

Snake's aerial game is too punishable. G&W's aerial game on the other hand is ridiculous because he can approach indiscriminately. Snake's recovery, while good for a heavyweight, is also one of the more easily punished ones because he can't autograb the ledge. G&W however has a really gay ledge game on the other hand.

Plus, while G&W is really lightweight, the more important thing is he usually kills at lower percents than he gets killed at (Melee Fox anyone?). He also has one of the best FSJ to D-airs. He counters energy projectile spamming, and he's very very difficult to approach. He also has one of the best D-throws in the game (it is techable yes, but still very good).

Zelda anyhow needs to be lower. She can spam and space well, but she deals with pressure very lousily, and her recovery is still quite punishable.

Plus, Mario is high tier. He has one of the best ledgeguarding strategies in the game, and he's super fast at attacking. His Down-B is AMAZINGLY useful for ledgeguarding if you fully charge it. His Cape still is awesome, and his Fireballs are much better.

Ganondorf is also better than Captain Falcon, who is the worst character in the game because he can't combo and he can't kill.

Ivysaur can't be bottom tier if it has good projectile spam and the strongest vertical killers in the game.

 

[BDawgPHD]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

Snake needs to be lower. G&W needs to be higher (on the top pls, he is definitely better than the other high tiers posted). I've seen this matchup several times (Zjiin vs Cosmo thank you) and G&W really seems to have the advantage on Snake.

Snake's aerial game is too punishable. G&W's aerial game on the other hand is ridiculous because he can approach indiscriminately. Snake's recovery, while good for a heavyweight, is also one of the more easily punished ones because he can't autograb the ledge. G&W however has a really gay ledge game on the other hand.

Plus, while G&W is really lightweight, the more important thing is he usually kills at lower percents than he gets killed at (Melee Fox anyone?). He also has one of the best FSJ to D-airs. He counters energy projectile spamming, and he's very very difficult to approach. He also has one of the best D-throws in the game (it is techable yes, but still very good).

Zelda anyhow needs to be lower. She can spam and space well, but she deals with pressure very lousily, and her recovery is still quite punishable.

Plus, Mario is high tier. He has one of the best ledgeguarding strategies in the game, and he's super fast at attacking.

Ganondorf is also better than Captain Falcon, who is the worst character in the game because he can't combo and he can't kill.

Oh boy, I'm not even going to correct this, way too much work, and I've said it all before. I will say that if you have a bad aerial game, don't use your aerial game, instantly making Snake a lot better than you previously thought.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The problem is he won't be able to catch up with the people flying around in the air, and once he's knocked into the air, things get really nasty because he doesn't have very good options for protect himself in the air. This is why G&W is so much better than Snake. He's got both a solid ground game and a solid air game.

G&W also outprioritizes everything Snake has. Including the U-smash. Snake can't ledgeguard G&W either because G&W's recovery is too good for that, cutting back on one of Snake's other big advantages.

 

[BDawgPHD]

The problem is he won't be able to catch up with the people flying around in the air, and once he's knocked into the air, things get really nasty because he doesn't have very good options for protect himself in the air. This is why G&W is so much better than Snake. He's got both a solid ground game and a solid air game.

G&W also outprioritizes everything Snake has. Including the U-smash. Snake can't ledgeguard G&W either because G&W's recovery is too good for that, cutting back on one of Snake's other big advantages.

*cough**airdodge**cough*

Besides, G&W will never get anywhere near a good Snake, let alone knock him into the air.

 

[Corner-Trap]

BDawgPHD

I see you completely skipped over my last post. You wanted good IC vids, I gave you that and then some.

 

[BDawgPHD]

BDawgPHD

I see you completely skipped over my last post. You wanted good IC vids, I gave you that and then some.

The IC's weren't too bad, but their opponents were. I don't know about how good a Peach could be, but that R.O.B. wasn't good at all, I could do far better, and I don't even main him.

Also, chain grabs and grab techs only work if you get grabbed, and if both IC's are together. As someone said a while back, all the pieces have to be together. It's like if you're playing Falco, he has a sweetass chain grab, but come on, like I'm dumb enough to get grabbed, let alone be grabbed in a way that works perfectly for Falco.

 

[Corner-Trap]

The IC's weren't too bad, but their opponents were. I don't know about how good a Peach could be, but that R.O.B. wasn't good at all, I could do far better, and I don't even main him.

Also, chain grabs and grab techs only work if you get grabbed, and if both IC's are together. As someone said a while back, all the pieces have to be together. It's like if you're playing Falco, he has a sweetass chain grab, but come on, like I'm dumb enough to get grabbed, let alone be grabbed in a way that works perfectly for Falco.

You act as if it's impossible to be grabbed. Grabbing in Brawl is so much easier than it was in Melee, and none of this takes away from the fact that they have the best throws in the game. Plus the IC's entire move set is good, they don't even need to rely on throws to win. And the IC's aren't as situational as you make it seem, getting the so called pieces to fall together isn't that hard. And the skill level of the R.O.B. players isn't important, it was the skill level of the IC player. Take note that the players in those vids actually post on SWF, so you may want to talk to them to get educated on the IC's. You asked me to show why the IC's were good, and when I finally do, you basically disregard my entire post. It seems like the only time you do care about my post is when you can argue and insult me over it.

 

[BDawgPHD]

You act as if it's impossible to be grabbed. Grabbing in Brawl is so much easier than it was in Melee, and none of this takes away from the fact that they have the best throws in the game. Plus the IC's entire move set is good, they don't even need to rely on throws to win. And the IC's aren't as situational as you make it seem, getting the so called pieces to fall together isn't that hard. And the skill level of the R.O.B. players isn't important, it was the skill level of the IC player. Take note that the players in those vids actually post on SWF, so you may want to talk to them to get educated on the IC's. You asked me to show why the IC's were good, and when I finally do, you basically disregard my entire post. It seems like the only time you do care about my post is when you can argue and insult me over it.

Or you're just wrong, and you can't deal with it.

Everyone's entire moveset is good, you can't use that as an argument for IC's. Their main weakness is that you have to have both of them in order to be useful. Also, their grabs are what make them extremely useful, but that's it, aside from powerful synced smash attacks, which is fixed by separating them. If they had a really good grab range, I would be impressed. But considering that separating them is easy if you know what you're doing, and as long as you're careful not to get grabbed - and believe me, as long as you're smart, you'll only get grabbed once in a while - the IC's are no longer all that good. That R.O.B. wasn't spacing them out very well, and he was spamming aerials a lot of the time, which is a bad idea in general, but particularly against IC's, who have those amazing grabs.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth can't dair gimp MK because he'd have to get above MK off the stage, and MK won't let him do that.

Yeah, Ken combo anyone? Footstool Jump to dair? Maybe he'll just go out and bair you while you're at like 80% and kill you. It's harder than Metaknight gimping Marth, but it's still viable.

MK can just shield grab all of Marth's attacks.

Then you haven't played any good Marth's. You can't shieldgrab a well spaced Fair, Nair, or F-tilt.

If Marth won't approach, MK can just dash grab.

In which case Marth will side B your butt, F-tilt, Fair, ect. If he's shielding then all he has to do is use that amazing up B of his.

By the way, MK's dash grab is very fast/rangely (rangely is a word, trust me )

It's not faster or more rangely than Marth's f-tilt, fair, side B, up B, d-tilt, or down smash (lols, that things useful now).

If an MK gets the uair chain perfect, you might not be able to airdodge out of it. Then again, maybe you can

You may not be able to airdodge out of the uair chain, but you can airdodge out of any kind of followup (no up B for you). Personally I'd rather counter the up B can watch you die off the top since you put us so high.

You can't downB counter grabs. Keep that in mind.

He was saying that you can counter the side B and neutral B. As in, if you ever do these two moves, the Marth can simply counter every single time on reaction. No B move approaches for you.

You make it sound like Metaknight is some kind of uber hard Marth counter, when he's clearly not. Marth has more range and more power, and more than enough speed to keep up. Metaknight was built to approach, yet Marth has just as many options to shut approaches down. On the stage it's Marth's advantage, off the edge it's Metaknight's advantage.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Or you're just wrong, and you can't deal with it.

Everyone's entire moveset is good, you can't use that as an argument for IC's. Their main weakness is that you have to have both of them in order to be useful. Also, their grabs are what make them extremely useful, but that's it, aside from powerful synced smash attacks, which is fixed by separating them. If they had a really good grab range, I would be impressed. But considering that separating them is easy if you know what you're doing, and as long as you're careful not to get grabbed - and believe me, as long as you're smart, you'll only get grabbed once in a while - the IC's are no longer all that good. That R.O.B. wasn't spacing them out very well, and he was spamming aerials a lot of the time, which is a bad idea in general, but particularly against IC's, who have those amazing grabs.

I'm not even sure if you read my whole IC post, or even watched all the vids.

You know your arguments could be completely switched around to the IC's favor, because a good IC player would allow himself to be separated so easily. This whole myth that the IC's are useless without both of them is one of the biggest misconceptions players have. Sure Popo is a lot weaker without Nana, but far from useless. Trying to separate them is a lot harder in Brawl because they resynch faster, and it's harder to gimp Nana because their recovery is better, and Nana's AI is much better. They're grabs are not the only things that make them useful, as I said before they still have a good move set which allows them to not rely on grabs. Seriously, they were already ranked #7 in Melee, and they have honestly been buffed in Brawl. Your ignorance of the IC's is very astounding, like I said before, go out and learn a **** thing about them before making statements.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I'm saying Marth isn't nearly as good as everyone says he is. He was good in Melee because you could combo with his fair and because there was more shield stun. With MK's range and speed alone, he could likely get to Marth after a fair, even if Marth spaced it perfectly.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I'd like to clear up a few things on the IC's, since people still seem to use the same misconceptions on them that they had in Melee. Back then people said that a solo IC was useless and that all they had were grabs. This was somewhat true for the most part. When Nana died Popo's recovery was worse, his attacks were weaker, and he could no longer desynch or CG. Their move set in general was somewhat below average which lead to them relying on grabs. Yet despite all that they were still ranked #7 in that game, and both of those weaknesses have been drastically improved upon in Brawl. It's much harder to kill Nana because their recovery is better since both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get more height off of SideB, and UpB sweetspots ledges. Nana's AI is better since she'll use UpB and SideB on her own to recover, and it's harder to separate them in the first place because they resynch faster. Even when nana dies, Popo's solo recovery has been improved since solo UpB and SideB get more distance, and he can still do solo CG's(which he didn't have in Melee). Their entire move set has been improved upon, especially their specials, to the point where they don't even need to grab to be good. So the IC's get to keep everything that made them good in Melee, such as their desynchs and CG's, but get all of their weaknesses improved upon. Plus the Brawl engine caters more to their play style anyways.

So tell me, how could they possibly suck? The only people who say that are the ones who don't play the IC's, don't play against anyone who uses the IC's, or don't know anything about them. Everyone needs to go get a bit more educated on the IC's.

 

[ToastMAN]

Sonic is Def. High tier

PIECE OF CA-YAKE!

 

[FlyingMudPuppy]

According to Mew2King, the four best characters in Brawl, in order, are:

Meta Knight
Falco
King Dedede
Snake

G&W and Olimar are good too. He also said that:

Snake counters Meta Knight
King Dedede counters Snake
Falco counters King Dedede
Pit counters King Dedede


FlyingMudPuppy: you need to play around with all the characters until you find one you're comfortable with. You can change them if you're trying to win, too, but don't look at the tier list and try to choose from the top tiered characters, especially since people are ******** and the tier list gap between best and worst isn't ginormous.

Apparently my other post never made it... I had to leave and my internet must have disconnected. What I had meant was that I do not want to pick a character near the bottom, just one with potential, and if I knew the characters well enough on my own, I wouldn't consult anyone, but the reality is that I don't. Currently I am playing with different characters and have yet to choose, although a certain few (MK, Olimar, Diddy, Luigi, TL) seem to be my best fits so far... Its weird I just feel like I should pick one, likes there a contract or somethin..

But thanks!

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm saying Marth isn't nearly as good as everyone says he is. He was good in Melee because you could combo with his fair and because there was more shield stun. With MK's range and speed alone, he could likely get to Marth after a fair, even if Marth spaced it perfectly.

No, he can't. If Marth spaces a shffl'd fair, Marth can escape anything Metaknight attempts to do. And the reason that I believe that Marth gives Metaknight problems is specifically because of the changes Marth got. Marth excells at killing opponents at lower percentages than most of the cast, and Metaknight is a very light character. Metaknight will be dying at less than 120% from nearly any of Marth's tipped attacks, while Marth living to 150% would be quite common.

Marth is good in brawl because his buffs canceled out his nerfs. The reduced hitstun makes comboing and racking damage very hard for most characters but he can combo with his side B to rack damage, and no longer needs to combo into kill moves. He doesn't need to combo with his fair anymore, because now his Bair, Nair, Up smash, Down smash, F-tilt, Up tilt, and Up B are all decent kill moves, in addition to his F-smash and dair which were his primary kill moves in melee.

Marth is either top tier or the very top of high tier. The buffs to his moveset balanced out the nerfs of the game engine and left him as one of the most effective killers in brawl. Nearly all of his moves are kill moves, and they all come out very fast and have good range. That more than makes up for the lack of on stage edgeguarding (he's still got that great off stage edgeguarding too) or less combo ability.

 

[kackamee]

I'd like to clear up a few things on the IC's, since people still seem to use the same misconceptions on them that they had in Melee. Back then people said that a solo IC was useless and that all they had were grabs. This was somewhat true for the most part. When Nana died Popo's recovery was worse, his attacks were weaker, and he could no longer desynch or CG. Their move set in general was somewhat below average which lead to them relying on grabs. Yet despite all that they were still ranked #7 in that game, and both of those weaknesses have been drastically improved upon in Brawl. It's much harder to kill Nana because their recovery is better since both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get more height off of SideB, and UpB sweetspots ledges. Nana's AI is better since she'll use UpB and SideB on her own to recover, and it's harder to separate them in the first place because they resynch faster. Even when nana dies, Popo's solo recovery has been improved since solo UpB and SideB get more distance, and he can still do solo CG's(which he didn't have in Melee). Their entire move set has been improved upon, especially their specials, to the point where they don't even need to grab to be good. So the IC's get to keep everything that made them good in Melee, such as their desynchs and CG's, but get all of their weaknesses improved upon. Plus the Brawl engine caters more to their play style anyways.

So tell me, how could they possibly suck? The only people who say that are the ones who don't play the IC's, don't play against anyone who uses the IC's, or don't know anything about them. Everyone needs to go get a bit more educated on the IC's.

*Starts with a little clap. It then turns into loud roar of clapping*
Best post ever about the IC's in this thread. If everyone would take time to just take a quick look at the IC's and play them a few games, they would know how much BETTER the IC's have gotten. IMO the only bad matchups for IC's is wolf, pit, and snake. And I once played a friend of mine who mains 1 of the best Ike's I've seen. I had 92% while he had 28.% My Nana was dead, but I played patiently and killed him and he even got me too 158% but when he respawned he came and killed me in 1 hit

The point is IC's got better than in melee and they were high middle tier in the first place. So just take a second to stop and think: Are the IC's good?

 

[AquaTech]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Game & Watch is the best character in the game.

 

[Chrono Centaur]

Uhh, Dedede is amazing, as are Snake, TL, Wolf, Pit and Lucas. Those guys make up top tier right there. Then we have R.O.B., two other space animals, two other Kirby characters, and maybe Marth. Then, I dunno. Boozer?

I put Dedede and them up on top tier because they all are insanely all-around good. Each one has at least one good projectile. Each one is insane in combat, with knockback moves or good speed, and each one can easily keep a camping game going, which is vital in Brawl, which rewards camping. They also are all characters who can control the flow of the battle, Dedede especially with his ftilt and Waddle Dees.

Also, I like it that we see mainers basically campaigning for their mains to be "top tier", without actually looking at all the statistics. I mean, Boozer is good and all, but he's not THAT good. Come on, guys.

 

[Griffard]

i've been playing more dk lately, and he IS pretty good. i don't feel like he'll be high up, but certainly a better-than-average char.

 

[Corner-Trap]

*Starts with a little clap. It then turns into loud roar of clapping*
Best post ever about the IC's in this thread. If everyone would take time to just take a quick look at the IC's and play them a few games, they would know how much BETTER the IC's have gotten. IMO the only bad matchups for IC's is wolf, pit, and snake. And I once played a friend of mine who mains 1 of the best Ike's I've seen. I had 92% while he had 28.% My Nana was dead, but I played patiently and killed him and he even got me too 158% but when he respawned he came and killed me in 1 hit

The point is IC's got better than in melee and they were high middle tier in the first place. So just take a second to stop and think: Are the IC's good?

Check the match-up thread in the IC's board. The only bad match-ups they have are MK and Pika which are 3/7. They're only at a slight 4/6 disadvantage to Snake and Pit, and go dead even with a 5/5 match-up against Wolf.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Uhh, Dedede is amazing, as are Snake, TL, Wolf, Pit and Lucas. Those guys make up top tier right there. Then we have R.O.B., two other space animals, two other Kirby characters, and maybe Marth. Then, I dunno. Boozer?

I put Dedede and them up on top tier because they all are insanely all-around good. Each one has at least one good projectile. Each one is insane in combat, with knockback moves or good speed, and each one can easily keep a camping game going, which is vital in Brawl, which rewards camping. They also are all characters who can control the flow of the battle, Dedede especially with his ftilt and Waddle Dees.

Also, I like it that we see mainers basically campaigning for their mains to be "top tier", without actually looking at all the statistics. I mean, Boozer is good and all, but he's not THAT good. Come on, guys.

No....Just no.

The other Characters I agree with, more or less with Pit.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Check the match-up thread in the IC's board. The only bad match-ups they have are MK and Pika which are 3/7. They're only at a slight 4/6 disadvantage to Snake and Pit, and go dead even with a 5/5 match-up against Wolf.

Yeah, IC are great for the most part.


I just find them hard to use

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Snake, Toon Link, Falco, Meta Knight, and Marth are top five to me, closely followed by Wolf, Pit, R.O.B., Mr. Game and Watch, Zero Suit Samus, Pikachu, and Zelda, in no particular order. It's pretty crazy how broken Snake is, and how Sonic.....*ahem*........

 

[Chrono Centaur]

No....Just no.

The other Characters I agree with, more or less with Pit.

Yes, Dedede is amazing.

The only, real easy infinite to pull off in the game, a big disjointed hitbox of attacks, ftilt + Gordo kills (which destroy campers), amazing smash attacks and good aerials like bair makes him a winner. You can also mix it up with regicides and STILL make it back to the stage, unharmed.

If that's not top tier I'm honestly not sure what is. Really, Dedede is all-around amazing.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Well, I think that while we may fight at what the ranking is, we can be sure of one thing:
http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217
This is what it isn't.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I'd like to clear up a few things on the IC's, since people still seem to use the same misconceptions on them that they had in Melee. Back then people said that a solo IC was useless and that all they had were grabs. This was somewhat true for the most part. When Nana died Popo's recovery was worse, his attacks were weaker, and he could no longer desynch or CG. Their move set in general was somewhat below average which lead to them relying on grabs. Yet despite all that they were still ranked #7 in that game, and both of those weaknesses have been drastically improved upon in Brawl. It's much harder to kill Nana because their recovery is better since both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get more height off of SideB, and UpB sweetspots ledges. Nana's AI is better since she'll use UpB and SideB on her own to recover, and it's harder to separate them in the first place because they resynch faster. Even when nana dies, Popo's solo recovery has been improved since solo UpB and SideB get more distance, and he can still do solo CG's(which he didn't have in Melee). Their entire move set has been improved upon, especially their specials, to the point where they don't even need to grab to be good. So the IC's get to keep everything that made them good in Melee, such as their desynchs and CG's, but get all of their weaknesses improved upon. Plus the Brawl engine caters more to their play style anyways.

So tell me, how could they possibly suck? The only people who say that are the ones who don't play the IC's, don't play against anyone who uses the IC's, or don't know anything about them. Everyone needs to go get a bit more educated on the IC's.

I think the issue that many many people with the IC's is that although they were buffed, a great majority of the cast was buffed as well. A buff from Melee =/= better ranking in Brawl. This is something I've had to argue with many players many times.

In Melee, they were ranked so high because they destroyed certain characters in the top/high tiers, and thus were used often in tournaments as counterpicks. More tournament usage = higher tier placement.

Also, in Melee, Marth was the only higher tiered character with a ton of range. If I remember correctly, Marth was considered an IC counter because of this. In Brawl, range is far more common, especially amongst the better characters of the cast. That range combined with smart play = less successful grabs.

Also, in Melee, everyone and their mother Shuffl'd EVERYTHING and stayed aggressive because of that. Having a strong grab game was an asset because of this. In Brawl, you don't need to shuffle everything to stay viable. Raw aggression is VERY rare in Brawl. Most of the time, people only attack when:

A) Their character is designed to deal with shield grabs (Ike, Marth, Metaknight)
B) Their opponent can't shieldgrab (Airbourne/lagging/flubbed attack etc)

So, as a character that is based on grabs, you're just not as viable in a game like Brawl. People aren't going to fall into your grabs like they used to. Conclusion? In higher level play, Grabs are going to be rare.

Once you take the IC's grabs away, they are AVERAGE. There would be no reason to not pick up another character (other than maybe the doubled up Smashes, but Ike still excels in the smash department.)

In a nutshell, I'm trying to say, Grabs may be easy to do in Brawl, but the situations when you can grab are rarer than in Melee.

 

[killaxmayne]

Well, I think that while we may fight at what the ranking is, we can be sure of one thing:
http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217
This is what it isn't.

Lol, that tier was horrible. I am still laughing about DDD being so low, Kirby being the best, and Toon Link being much lower than Link

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Lol, that tier was horrible. I am still laughing about DDD being so low, Kirby being the best, and Toon Link being much lower than Link

I know, right? Hilarious stuff, and Samus, 6th in the game? Pff, this ain't Melee son!

 

[killaxmayne]

The best part is the non-competitive guys trying to defend the list. They seem to forget that he made the list in accordance to who was the best and people who play on the competitive level are better than casuals thus making the characters they use/knowledge of the game better than theirs.

Besides, the "Fox, FD, No items" thing is probably the worst insult ever.

 

[A2ZOMG]

*cough**airdodge**cough*

Besides, G&W will never get anywhere near a good Snake, let alone knock him into the air.

There is no way he is never going to get knocked into the air unless he's extremely nimble (which he isn't) and/or he has something really lame like SHLs (which of course, he doesn't, not saying his spam is bad though, just it isn't SHL unfortunately for him). G&W by far is probably the best approacher in the entire game. He can beat back spam just by using aerial attacks.

Oh yeah, of course you can air dodge, but G&W moves FAST in the air (especially vertically). He can punish you really effectively once he gets things moving in the air. So let's say you manage to like air dodge through his N-air (really difficult because of the duration), he can still chase you with his D-air which goes through everything that Snake has (including the Up-smash as I've noted earlier).

By the way, G&W can in fact spam back against other characters, and it's not bad at all. Bacon goes so much further. It's GOOD in Brawl.

Point going to emphasize G&W is underrated on that list, and Snake is overrated.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

The best part is the non-competitive guys trying to defend the list. They seem to forget that he made the list in accordance to who was the best and people who play on the competitive level are better than casuals thus making the characters they use/knowledge of the game better than theirs.

Besides, the "Fox, FD, No items" thing is probably the worst insult ever.

What people don't seem to understand is that items are genuinely absurdly broken. They DO make the game a braindead race to the items. The strategy of the game IS eliminated. That's not just Smash players talking out of their butts.
Besides, other fighting games don't have items or platforms either. Why should Smash be any different?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

There is no way he is never going to get knocked into the air unless he's extremely nimble (which he isn't) and/or he has something really lame like SHLs (which of course, he doesn't, not saying his spam is bad though, just it isn't SHL unfortunately for him). G&W by far is probably the best approacher in the entire game. He can beat back spam just by using aerial attacks.

Oh yeah, of course you can air dodge, but G&W moves FAST in the air (especially vertically). He can punish you really effectively once he gets things moving in the air. So let's say you manage to like air dodge through his N-air (really difficult because of the duration), he can still chase you with his D-air which goes through everything that Snake has (including the Up-smash as I've noted earlier).

By the way, G&W can in fact spam back against other characters, and it's not bad at all. Bacon goes so much further. It's GOOD in Brawl.

Point going to emphasize G&W is underrated on that list, and Snake is overrated.

Even if G&W does counter Snake (I don't play either, so I don't know) I DO know for a fact that Snake has godly matchups versus the majority of the cast, much more than G&W could ever hope for. Thats why people place Snake so high.

 

[Corner-Trap]

snip.

Didn't I just go through that whole post explaining that they can do more than just grabs? They're move set may be average, but desynching makes it way above average. I'm really tired of this misconception that the IC's are only good for grabs. And grabbing is easier in Brawl than it was in Melee, I don't even know why you would think otherwise. There are no l-cancels, attacks are more laggy and cause less shield stun, and perfect shielding is much easier. Players basically have to perfectly space every attack to not get grabbed. Grabbing will be just as hard as it was in Melee, if not a little easier.

 

[Azuro]

Well, I think that while we may fight at what the ranking is, we can be sure of one thing:
http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217
This is what it isn't.

The "FD, No Items, Fox" insult made me lol, because that guy made it painfully obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about.

That list was just funny...I hope that was a joke.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Um Ryan Sparks(Riot on the boards) just won a 60 man Brawl tourney today with DK.

ONLY DK.

He walked home with just under 700 bucks.

He beat Olimars, Marths, Pits, MetaKnights, among others.

Riot is a beast.

awesome for him huggs made samus climb the tier list as well
Once again these proves tier list are flawed skilled players can when with low tier charecters
p.s
edits i moved the yoshi up on the list.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Didn't I just go through that whole post explaining that they can do more than just grabs? They're move set may be average, but desynching makes it way above average. I'm really tired of this misconception that the IC's are only good for grabs. And grabbing is easier in Brawl than it was in Melee, I don't even know why you would think otherwise. There are no l-cancels, attacks are more laggy and cause less shield stun, and perfect shielding is much easier. Players basically have to perfectly space every attack to not get grabbed. Grabbing will be just as hard as it was in Melee, if not a little easier.

At least you'll admit that they have an average move set and that can't do well without grabs. That's all I'm really looking for here, for you to admit your characters downfalls.

Desynching always made them powerful, I won't refute that. I don't even want to recite how many times getting smacked back and forth got me killed in Melee. Though, I'm confused, if they resynch faster and Nana's AI is better, isn't Desyching harder to do nowadays? And, if it is harder to desycnch, wouldn't that compound the issue of an average moveset? *puzzled look*

I looked into the IC boards. Its not quite as organized as I would have hope. I didn't find any central threads on the first page covering IC's as a whole. The only "guide" was written by someone with less than 50 posts. I noticed quite a few infinites, and interesting tricks though. Enough to get into the high tier? I'm still not sure of that. I still think that the range issue for them gives them too many bad matchups, much like how Ike's issue with projectiles keeps him out of high tier.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Even if G&W does counter Snake (I don't play either, so I don't know) I DO know for a fact that Snake has godly matchups versus the majority of the cast, much more than G&W could ever hope for. Thats why people place Snake so high.

Hmmm, the only truly godly matchup I can recall for Snake is vs Ike. No, Snake is definitely good, but unless if I'm mistaken that's his only significant counter (the other ones are garbage like Ganondorf).

He does get countered by Pikachu, who I don't think is nearly as good as Snake OR Ike. And as I said, his punishable air game is generally a problem against characters who are very air oriented. While it probably isn't so much as a problem that he gets countered by several more characters, it's enough for me to believe that he's certainly not broken enough to be on the top tier.

 

[Ithilgore]

Well, I think that while we may fight at what the ranking is, we can be sure of one thing:
http://www.consolemonster.com/newspost.php?id=0000003217
This is what it isn't.

I'm far from an expert, but judging from the general look of everyone's lists, that tier list is almost backwards.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

lol at you snake counters pika and snake counters meta nasty wow you said pika counters snake your funy f-tilt lightning Nade pika. GG