Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Hmmm, the only truly godly matchup I can recall for Snake is vs Ike. No, Snake is definitely good, but unless if I'm mistaken that's his only significant counter (the other ones are garbage like Ganondorf).

He does get countered by Pikachu, who I don't think is nearly as good as Snake OR Ike. And as I said, his punishable air game is generally a problem against characters who are very air oriented. While it probably isn't so much as a problem that he gets countered by several more characters, it's enough for me to believe that he's certainly not broken enough to be on the top tier.

Its funny that everyone bring up his subpar aerial game when refuting Snake. I very rarely, if EVER see Snakes take to the sky, Why would try to fight you in the air? They are very content with controlling the stage with explosives. Almost every character has issues approaching him, and Snake isn't one to die easily either, considering his immense weight, so you need to successfully approach him many times.

Because of this, any character who can't approach well is sunk. Thus, G&W, Marth and Metaknight can hold their own with him. Practically everyone else is disadvantaged because they can't counter his control on the stage. He's not "broken", he just has so many matchups in his favour, thats it hard to keep him out of top tier.

As for Pikachu, you should really check out the Pikachu board and see the developments coming from him. He already has running speed, power and crazy priority on many of his moves, which made him high/mid by default.

But recently, Quick Attack Cancel and 50%+ chaingrabs were discovered, giving a huge boost in mobility and power. This alone will probably make him the highest of high, or bottom of top.

The metagame is changing so fast, its important to keep up on these things. xD

 

[PIMPSLAP]

why do that when he can light jump and do four kicks with n air snake has nades for the air anyways

 

[Emblem Lord]

BDawg: I was all set to counter your arguments, but Sonic Wave did it for me.

Honestly your points are a joke and about 80% of it is bull****.

You aren't on my level as a debater and I'll waste no more of my time arguing with you.

Come on now...proximity range?

Really? MK can grab Marth anytime he tries something? Really?

Yeah, I'm done with you.

Also MK's biggest weakness is this. He can't afford to screw up too many times. He is one of the lightest characters in the game. So he has to make less mistakes then someone of mid weight, so he has tyo make less mistakes then average. If he screws up even a few times then he risk death if his percent is high enough.

This is his biggest flaw. Weight is not to be taken lightly in this game.

Honestly if Snake wasn't third heaviest I would say that he would only be high tier, since it would mean he can't take as much punishment, especially since his recovery makes him a sitting duck. But being third heaviest means he can make alot of mistakes and still be ok unless his percentage is really high when he is fighting most of the cast.

MK leaves little room for error and to err is human.

Mess up too many times and that puffball goes flying.

 

[Dynamism?]

Trebor, you are as pro-Snake as Bdawg is pro-MK lol

I know that neither of them are top tier. That's just lazy. This whole world is lazy that's why things take so long to get things done. Pikachu is better than everyone, that includes Snake. Snake has trouble with just as much of the roster that he gives trouble to. Same with MK. I might be a little pro-Pika right now but if nobody has noticed, there is good reason for it. Or else it's just coincidence that every day people seem to place him higher and higher. But you know, lets be lazy and pretend Marth still beats all because in melee he did and those things stay the same forever. (sarcasm btw)

I honestly believe Pika is the best or at least one of the best (if dramatic game altering discoveries are made with someone) and it's easy to see if you look for it. Look at this from every side, as a famous quote says - "You can twist perceptions all you want, reality wont budge" (cookieness for whoever knows what artist has that in a song as well)



Anywho....Samus is not bad at all. I don't know how that became a thought. I'm guessing it's because anyone who played Samus was lazy to change and anyone that didn't was lazy to figure it out once they heard she sucked from people that should know better. That's just stupid and stupidity somehow attracts more of itself which leads to mass misconception. Whatever, like DK, ICs, Yoshi, Ness, Bowser, Mario etc etc... And yes Ike sucks....He's good, but more bad than good....at least if you compare the bad to good ratios for every character in the game then throw in character specifics for match ups etc...he's for sure on the "bad" side.

 

[Deleted member]

Pikachu is very good, but i wouldnt say the best. He has a fantastic approach and great smashes, and his damage output is great. BUT, Disjointed hitboxes are difficult to get past, and he doesnt have as many good matchups as someone like snake imo. Hes definately viable for top tho, especially with all this new stuff like QACs. Also, trebor is just stating whats good about snake, he doesnt even main him.

 

[Corner-Trap]

At least you'll admit that they have an average move set and that can't do well without grabs. That's all I'm really looking for here, for you to admit your characters downfalls.

Desynching always made them powerful, I won't refute that. I don't even want to recite how many times getting smacked back and forth got me killed in Melee. Though, I'm confused, if they resynch faster and Nana's AI is better, isn't Desyching harder to do nowadays? And, if it is harder to desycnch, wouldn't that compound the issue of an average moveset? *puzzled look*

I looked into the IC boards. Its not quite as organized as I would have hope. I didn't find any central threads on the first page covering IC's as a whole. The only "guide" was written by someone with less than 50 posts. I noticed quite a few infinites, and interesting tricks though. Enough to get into the high tier? I'm still not sure of that. I still think that the range issue for them gives them too many bad matchups, much like how Ike's issue with projectiles keeps him out of high tier.

Yeah I know our board isn't to organized, but thats because mods never check on us. If you looked a few pages back I made a post with a bunch of IC info. Here it is again:

Thread on Desynchs:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159767

Vid on some IC tactics::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8TH7OBqHLc

Some matches:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3GM3odhBdro
http://youtube.com/watch?v=il06guxURgQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zn_MC_auemo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yiFET1t5Hw8
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x8d1Q3WBBGg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=al-RtNLtOVU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0gQ1D9yrfPo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qnwag93eWQ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OXzL1XIXQA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kq0UoyeC0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTHLf3Eark8

Chaingrabs:

Dthrow- You can repeat Dthrows until a certain percent that varies amongst characters, and it only requires one IC.

Dthrow into Fair- Just like repeated Dthrows this only works until a certain percent. If the opponent is still standing after the Fair you can regrab, but if the opponent hits the floor then you can do a follow up. You can also use this to spike the opponent while next to the ledge, but you must hit the Fair while the opponent is directly under you.

Dthrow into squall hammer- Do a Dthrow and make one IC do a solo squall hammer, and when that one ends make the other IC do a squall hammer, and keep alternating between the two. This can be done all the way to the end of the stage

Ice block lock- After a Dthrow into Fair CG you can desynch the IC's and make them shoot evenly spaced out ice blocks which will keep your opponent infinitely stunned. If you make one IC jump and shoot an ice block to the far side of your opponent it will pop them back to you resulting in a true infinite. Here's a video on it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvR9x8tm-I

Alternating throws- This is an infinite that works on every character, but the timing is difficult and varies on the percent and the character you're fighting against. First you grab with one IC, then do a Fthrow, Bthrow, or Dthrow, then grab with the other IC.

Double smash throw- This is a good way to rack up damage and KO your opponent. You simply just grab with one IC and attack with the C-stick. This results in Popo doing grab hits while Nana does smashes. After Nana does the second smash it'll knock the opponent out of Popo's hand.

Charged smash throw- This is a good way to get off a fully charged smash attack for an easy KO. Simply grab with one IC and then hit the C-stick in any direction for a smash while hold Z, which will result in you charging your smash while the opponent is still grabbed.

Squall hammer throw- Grab with Popo then tilt the control stick very slightly to the side and make Nana do a solo squall hammer. She should knock them behind Popo so he can turn around and regrab them. This can be done until very high percents.

Here's a vid showing how to do some of these CG's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHfGqpHBZI4

Also if you want to know the IC's match-ups then here they are as well.

Bowser- Good 7/3
Captain Falcon- Fair 6/4
Charizard- Fair 6/4
Diddy Kong- Fair 5/5
Donkey Kong- Good 7/3
Falco- Fair 5/5
Fox- Fair 6/4
Game & Watch- Fair 4/6
Ganondorf- Good 7/3
Ice Climbers- Fair 5/5
Ike- Fair 6/4
Ivysaur- Good 7/3
Jigglypuff- Fair 6/4
King Dedede- Fair 6/4
Kirby- Fair 6/4
Link- Fair 6/4
Lucario- Fair 6/4
Lucas- Fair 5/5
Luigi- Fair 5/5
Mario- Good 7/3
Marth- Fair 4/6
Meta Knight- Bad 3/7
Ness- Fair 6/4
Peach- Fair 6/4
Pikachu- Bad 3/7
Pikman & Olimar- Fair 6/4
Pit- Fair 4/6
R.O.B.- Fair 5/5
Samus- Fair 6/4
Sheik- Fair 6/4
Snake- Fair 4/6
Sonic- Fair 6/4
Squirtle- Fair 6/4
Toon Link- Fair 5/5
Wario- Fair 6/4
Wolf- Fair 5/5
Yoshi- Good 7/3
Zelda- Fair 5/5
Zero Suit Samus- Fair 4/6

Good-6
Fair- 31
Bad- 2

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Meh, this is my tier list. I hope everyone can agree with this.

Top
===
Marth
Wolf
Toon Link

High
=====
Fox
Falco
Snake
Pit
Ike
Olimar
Luigi
Game and Watch
Lucario
Lucas
ZSS
Pikachu
Jiggs

Mid
===
Zelda
Diddy
Mario
Ice Climbers
Sonic
DK
Ness
Kirby
Peach
C. Falcon
DeDeDe
Link

Low
=====
Boswer
Wario
R.O.B
Metaknight
Squirtle
Shiek
Charzard
Ivasaur


Bottom
===
Samus
Yoshi
Gannondorf

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

that's a ****ing terrible tier list. and stop splitting up the pokemon trainer.

on the ic's debate: for what it's worth, the last tier list i saw from japan had them in top.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

What's bad about it?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Personally mine looks like this

Top Tier:
Snake
Falco
Meta Knight
Wolf
Marth
Toon Link

High Tier:
R.O.B.
Diddy Kong
Mr. Game and Watch
Zelda
Pit
King Dedede
Pikachu
Lucas
Olimar


High-Mid Tier:
Fox
Ness
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Ice Climbers
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer

Mid Tier:
Luigi
Wario
Lucario
lke
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Jigglypuff


Low tier:
Sonic
Peach
Link
Yoshi

Bottom Tier:
Captain Falcon
Mario
Samus
Ganondorf


I think it's okay >_>. But just in case

*Puts on Flame shield

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Meh, this is my tier list. I hope everyone can agree with this.

Top
===
Marth (Right Tier, wrong place)
Wolf
Toon Link

High
=====
Fox (He's not better than Falco)
Falco(High or Top)
Snake(Top, one of the best in the game, if not the best)
Pit(lower in high)
Ike(Mid or Low)
Olimar
Luigi(Mid)
Game and Watch
Lucario (Mid)
Lucas
ZSS
Pikachu
Jiggs (Mid)

Mid
===
Zelda (High)
Diddy(High)
Mario(Low/Bottom)
Ice Climbers(High or want to be ballsy, Top)
Sonic (Low/Bottom)
DK
Ness(High)
Kirby
Peach(Low)
C. Falcon (Low/Bottom)
DeDeDe (HIGH)
Link

Low
=====
Boswer(lol at spelling, Mid)
Wario(Mid)
R.O.B(LOLOLOLOLOL, next to MK this was the worst placing in your list, he's definatly High)
Metaknight(Rofl Top/High)
Squirtle(Mid/High)
Shiek(Mid/High)
Charzard
Ivasaur(Stop separating PT)


Bottom
===
Samus
Yoshi
Gannondorf

Basicially you only got the Bottom tier partially correct for the most part.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Never said one IC was useless without the other, I just said that their great strength is only due to their combined efforts. I knew a guy in Melee whose Popo was better than both of his IC's together. I'm just saying that for one, you need both of them to do what you need to do, or else you need to use Popo, who just isn't as retardedly strong. For two, just because they got buffed from Melee doesn't mean they're insanely good. Because this isn't Melee, this is Brawl. It's a completely different game. I mean, Ness didn't really get any serious buffs at all, yet in my opinion he'll be high tier, or mid tier at worst, because it's a different game engine with different rules. Also, there are a lot of new characters, so saying that an old character got buffs doesn't mean anything when you have to look at characters made from scratch. You basically have to look at everyone as if they were all made from scratch, ESPECIALLY since this is a new game engine. That being said, the IC's don't have the versatility to be considered so good, when there are so many other characters with that sort of power. Granted, most of them are in the top tier, though.

EDIT: ROFL at Meta Knight at low tier.

 

[deletedmember]

Olimar is top no matter what anyone says. As is Snake. And Wolf is high up there too.

Oh! I just realized! The best characters in Brawl are the campiest.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Olimar is top no matter what anyone says. As is Snake. And Wolf is high up there too.

Oh! I just realized! The best characters in Brawl are the campiest.

Marth and MK have no projectiles, how in the world could they camp as well as a Snake or Falco?


Also, Olimar should be around High Tier, his recovery is just so horrible.....

 

[Corner-Trap]

Never said one IC was useless without the other, I just said that their great strength is only due to their combined efforts. I knew a guy in Melee whose Popo was better than both of his IC's together. I'm just saying that for one, you need both of them to do what you need to do, or else you need to use Popo, who just isn't as retardedly strong. For two, just because they got buffed from Melee doesn't mean they're insanely good. Because this isn't Melee, this is Brawl. It's a completely different game. I mean, Ness didn't really get any serious buffs at all, yet in my opinion he'll be high tier, or mid tier at worst, because it's a different game engine with different rules. Also, there are a lot of new characters, so saying that an old character got buffs doesn't mean anything when you have to look at characters made from scratch. You basically have to look at everyone as if they were all made from scratch, ESPECIALLY since this is a new game engine. That being said, the IC's don't have the versatility to be considered so good, when there are so many other characters with that sort of power. Granted, most of them are in the top tier, though.

EDIT: ROFL at Meta Knight at low tier.

I understand what you're saying, but I highly disagree with the IC's not being versatile. And I did post up the IC's match-ups, and as you can see they really stack up well against the other character. Only bad match-ups are MK and Pika which are 3/7, and are at a slight 4/6 disadvantage to Snake, Marth, Pit, GW, and ZSS. I don't think the IC's are top tier material because they run into trouble against some of the upper tiered characters, but are definitely high tier material because of how well they do against the majority.

 

[Cheetor720]

Can anybody tell me why you people are putting Zelda in high tier?

 

[Corner-Trap]

Can anybody tell me why you people are putting Zelda in high tier?

Best KO moves in the game.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well, there is Ike and DDD, but only in very strategic Edgeguards should those ever hit >_>.


Zelda has the Best usable without heavy lag KO moves in the game.

 

[Grandeza]

What holds Diddy back from top tier? Is it his recovery? Because other than that, he doesn't have many weaknesses.

 

[Eddy01741]

You aren't on my level as a debater and I'll waste no more of my time arguing with you.

Not to take either side in this arguement, since neither Marth nor Snake is my favorite character, but yeah, that statement above isn't arrogant at all.

 

[rathy Aro]

My only certainty is DDD for high tier at least. Chain grab at all percents for half the roster. Amazing aerials: his bairs can gimp, his dairs can start combos, his fair can KO, and his nair looks funny. AND his recovery+weight means he's not dying till high percents. (this is me being a biased penguin fanboy, I think pikachu should be high/top along with MK)

This is more of a question than a statement: aren't tier lists derived from tourney results? Isn't it impossible to make lists without any major tourneys to back up the claims?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

That's correct, but we can pick away from the Tourney results we have now, however scarce it may be.


Besides, the results of those tourneys not only come down to the skill of the user, but sometimes how well the Char is used in general. IMO Tiers are made by Tourney results, which is almost a direct correlation to how good a certain character is. They're intertwined, in a way.

 

[Corner-Trap]

What holds Diddy back from top tier? Is it his recovery? Because other than that, he doesn't have many weaknesses.

Recovery can be gimped, ground game is only average, bananas and peanut gun can be turned against you, KO moves are average, and the other top/high tier characters are simply better. Despite all that he's still good which is why people keep putting him in high tier.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Trebor, you are as pro-Snake as Bdawg is pro-MK lol

Thats not true. BDawg thinks MK is the best character because his experiences while playing WITH him tell him so.

I think Snake is the best character because of my experience playing AGAINST him.

Very different viewpoints to consider.

I truly have no idea who is going to be top. I won't make any assertions just yet because to much is still being discovered. The mere fact that Pikachu is JUST discovering chain-grabs is reason enough for my attitude. The only thing I know right now are which characters are awesome, which ones are pseudo-awesome, and which ones just aren't awesome. And my opinion of that changes almost every day. ^^

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Olimar is top no matter what anyone says. As is Snake. And Wolf is high up there too.

Oh! I just realized! The best characters in Brawl are the campiest.

as much as i love using olimar he's top tier when he's not in the air marths invincibility frames rule

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Nigerian Star Storm, your corrections to my tier list suck. The only corrections I can agree on are Zelda and Diddy being moved up. Metaknight top tier? Are you smoking or somthing?

 

[PIMPSLAP]

mK is top
aswell
Snake G&W ,Falco and thats it.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Nigerian Star Storm, your corrections to my tier list suck. The only corrections I can agree on are Zelda and Diddy being moved up. Metaknight top tier? Are you smoking or somthing?

*A little tear forms in his eye*

I love the innocence of new players.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

lol yes i agree,

 

[GreenMarth]

WHos with me on this..

i will put Meta Knight where Ice Climbers were in the last game?

top of the middle about

because hes light and few kill moves

but he has great recovery


plus at this early stage in development of the tiers, tourney results will be more heavily based on who people play the most.

 

[Corner-Trap]

I made a few revisions to the list, please critique. And no, MK is still not the #1 character on my list, so don't comment on it *cough*BDawgPHD*cough*

Top:
Snake
Toon Link
Falco
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight

High:
Pit
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
King Dedede
R.O.B.
Zelda
Diddy Kong
Game & Watch
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Olimar
Luigi
Fox

Mid:
Kirby
Sheik
Ike
Lucario
Peach
Ness
Squirtle
Donkey Kong
Wario
Charizard

Low:
Jigglypuff
Link
Samus
Bowser
Yoshi
Captain Falcon

Bottom:
Sonic
Mario
Ivysaur
Gannondorf

Here's a more in depth look at my tier list.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152409

 

[PIMPSLAP]

your intitled to the list ok also

on a side note i'm moving ice climbers to the top of high tier there discustingly good.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

TIER LIST:
Top tier
Falco
Snake
G&W

High tier
Ice climbers
MK
Pit
ZSS
Olimar
Marth
Toon link
Rob
King ddd
Wolf
Fox


Middle Tier
Pikachu
Wario
Sheik/and Zelda go here
Peach
Lucas
Lucario
Diddy Kong


Low tier
Ness
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Mario
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Ike (fan boys will attack me
Kirby(this hurts me my favorite this low ouch)
Sonic
Link


Lower Tier?
Jiggs
Ganondorf
DK
Bowser

you guys like it?

 

[Corigames]

Why is Bowser on the bottom?

 

[PIMPSLAP]

my bad i will move him to the top of the bottom list because he can defend himself a little though thats all he beats ganon.... poor guy my second fav char

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Nigerian Star Storm, your corrections to my tier list suck. The only corrections I can agree on are Zelda and Diddy being moved up. Metaknight top tier? Are you smoking or somthing?

*Faceplam*


Your one of the people who thinks he has no kill moves/Cant KO aren't you?


I would explain, but Bdawg is likely writing a 500 post essay to prove you wrong -_-.

Your Tier list looks like it's based more off Popularity than actual abilites/ Matchups/tournament results of the characters.


Also haven't you noticed in these last few pages of posts that no one was denying that MK was any lower than High Tier?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Ouch Pimpslap... Ike's placement kinda hurt. xD

I will admit, I am a fanboy, but I won't instantly go;
" ZOMG YOUR STUPID AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY"

Instead, I shall ask, why do you hold Ike in such low regard?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Have to say I kinda agree with his positioning. BTW you have 2 wolfs and Foxes >_>

Also, no one commented on mine. QQ

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Ouch Pimpslap... Ike's placement kinda hurt. xD

I will admit, I am a fanboy, but I won't instantly go;
" ZOMG YOUR STUPID AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY"

Instead, I shall ask, why do you hold Ike in such low regard?

thank you alot yeah sorry about the wolf and fox i moved them up and forgot to delete the old ones

Ike is so low in the list because he is so predictible at the same time he's except a view are laggy. he gets destroyed by anyone that can spam and punish (meda knight) his attack for the most parts have start ups that tell what he's going to do. His recovery i predictble and punishable poor olimar fails here too...
thats my reason and most the chars i have above him have a good chance to be him and that hurts

 

[tedward2000]

So for future reference, if one is calling out other posters based on what year they joined and their ability to make judgments on Brawl, is seriously wrong. Brawl has only been out a month and a few days, so no one should be judging other people based on their year of joining.
Unless your a guru, and have spent the last month or two months (if you bought the Japaneses one) studying the game to the last 1 and 0. then guru, by all means judge.
Some people are long or short time lurkers, before they join. You know dip their feet into the water, fully armored with flotation devices. Then there are others who just cannonball right in.
But lack of recorded time in the forms is not a solid bias for judgment.
If any one it to be called out on stating something, it should be those with lack of evidence or those who cannot find evidence and quote it.