Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Pubik Vengeance]

Marth's fair does have some qualities of gair, But G& W's Bair Defenitely Qualifies!

Yeah, I am willing to guess Toon Link's Dair too.

 

[Creo]

sure lets battle sometime. My fc is 5069 3677 4088.

And watch this. I dont have a capture card so i cant show u some of my matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9OfEl3cSb0

As I said, I would love to face you, but my online is lag central and that's not fun...>_>
I know Peach hs potential, but I still don't see her high tier.
I'll be more specific and say Peach will probably be Mid tier(high)at best.
Does anyone have Peach tourny results? I don't think she places better then some of the mid tiers.(?)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So have we decided what Tier Isaac is at?

I think he's God Tier, I say better than MK, people just haven't seen Isaac's potential yet, he hits like a truck, is faster than sound and he can go invisible. The only reason people aren't picking up Isaac is because he requires skill and that you have balls =P.

So Isaac = God Tier??? Any doubts?

I think after Isaac = God Tier is confirmed we should move on to Jesus and that main character dude from Harvest moon, I think his name is Jack.

Then lets talk more about Yoshi and Pit.

 

[Snail]

So, the official list is already here... It's in the general discussion.

Top
Metaknight
Snake
King DDD
Mr G&W
Falco
ROB

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
DK
Diddy
Pikachu
IC
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zamus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Shiek

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Cptn. Falcon


I personally think it sucks, but okay. Any thoughts?

 

[jiovanni007]

Marth's fair does have some qualities of gair, But G& W's Bair Defenitely Qualifies!

gair means glide air, if I was the one who caused this confusion then let me clear it up. People say that Snake's ftilt and utilt are the most broken moves in the game when in fact MKs gair is the easily more broken and can be abused for those who know how to use it properly. I still don't believe that MK should be banned, but this move is one reason why he is top tier. The entire hitbox come out instantly and is absolutely massive. The range of it is roughly equal to his fsmash, usmash and dair all in one. The priority on it is even greater than mach tornado and can only be disrupted by lasers and explosions (not even sure on lasers, that's moreso an assumption). This is basically why a good MK is ungimpable by conventional means. He starts gliding as soon as possible, gairs you if you try to gimp, the uses shuttle loop to restore gairing ability. Plus it has less lag than autocanceled moves and can be instantly chained into ground move (dsmash, shuttle loop, and ftilt are most common). Pit and Charizard have gairs too, but Charizard's isn't disjointed and Pit's is a swipe that isn't nearly as quick and doesn't have the priority. Just to give you an idea, MKs gair clashes with the tip of Lucario's fsmash, cancels out his aura sphere and can just not be stopped, only blocked.

sorry for the wall o' text and continued MK discussion, just needed to let everyone know what it was. And sorry to that other guy I argued with even though we had the same point >.>

oh and about that list, someone randomly posted it in our local thread, I like the order but I still expected Top -> High -> Upper -> Mid -> low -> bottom. Lucas, Ness and Mario I feel to be unjustified, especially since that says they're in league with falcon.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So, the official list is already here... It's in the general discussion.

Top
Metaknight
Snake
King DDD
Mr G&W
Falco
ROB

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
DK
Diddy
Pikachu
IC
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zamus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Shiek

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Cptn. Falcon


I personally think it sucks, but okay. Any thoughts?

It's Missing God Tier, put Isaac in that.

Move yoshi up to 8th from the bottom, Sheik and luigi up, Jesus Middle tier, Jack High tier.

=P

This is the official list, lame, yoshi has 8th best tourney results(from the bottom).

 

[Snail]

Yeah, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed in this list... Aside from the obvious top 7 I disagree with pretty much every placement XD

 

[jiovanni007]

Yeah, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed in this list... Aside from the obvious top 7 I disagree with pretty much every placement XD

meh Wolf, Olly, and DK are my only gripes. If DK's tourney's get him that far then Wario should be in the top as well, DK's match-ups aren't that good. And Wolf should be lower and Olly higher.

 

[Twilght Link]

My poor, poor Link <mopes> aww well, now its even more satisfying winning with Link

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

So, the official list is already here... It's in the general discussion.

Top
Metaknight
Snake


High
Mr G&W - Switched up G&W and DDD
King DDD
Falco - These 4 should NOT be in the same tier as MK and Snake
ROB
Marth
Wario

High-Middle - Made this a new tier
Lucario
Diddy - Switched the Kongs
DK
Pikachu
Kirby - Switched Kirby and IC
IC
Olimar - Switched Olimar to Pit's spot, moved Pit wayy down
Wolf

Middle
Zelda - Switched Zelda and Toon Link
Fox
Toon Link
Zamus
Luigi
Peach - Originally had Pit above Luigi and Peach but moved him more down
Pit
Bowser - Moved down
Ike
Shiek

Low
Pokemon Trainer - Moved him way up, because I am still hoping people will get better with him and get into his untapped potential.
Lucas
Ness
Yoshi - Moved Yoshi up, I have always hated him, but he's doing okay in Brawl
Mario
Sonic - Switched Sonic and Samus
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Cptn. Falcon


I personally think it sucks, but okay. Any thoughts?

Those are my fixes. It still isn't exactly how I would like it after my fixes but I tried to keep it semi-similar to how it was before.

 

[Gindler]

Beating a really good MK mains with Link, yoshi, ness, or any other low tier character really does just "feel" better for some reason.


On another note. I love how there's no bottom tier so no one has anything to complain about.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I was going to complain >.> but then I noticed no one else was and didn't want to be the odd man out.
Peer pressure ftw =P

*runs for being lame*
*realizes penguins don't run*
*waddles*

 

[popsofctown]

We get a very early tier list, with no clues or hints about its imminent arrival, immediately following an uproar about MK being too good, and it claims MK is upon a flat plane along with 5 other characters.

Am i the only one who thinks the early tier list is ploy to put the MK ban down as an officially incorrect opinion?

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

We get a very early tier list, with no clues or hints about its imminent arrival, immediately following an uproar about MK being too good, and it claims MK is upon a flat plane along with 5 other characters.

Am i the only one who thinks the early tier list is ploy to put the MK ban down as an officially incorrect opinion?

Yes, especially since MK isn't on a tier all his own on the list. He really deserves to be, or at least on a tier with just him and Snake.

 

[exidid]

Does anyone have Peach tourny results? I don't think she places better then some of the mid tiers.(?)

She places 14 in tourney results. Above Pikachu, Olimar, Ice Climbers and Pit.

 

[Bowser King]

Those are my fixes. It still isn't exactly how I would like it after my fixes but I tried to keep it semi-similar to how it was before.

Those are your personal opinions.


I really can't see why people are complaining (the 1 or 2 that are). The tier list isn't made by a bunch of people who have no clue what there doing. There are a lot of them and there all very intelligent at what there doing. So saying your tier list would be better is stupid.

 

[AlexX]

Yes, especially since MK isn't on a tier all his own on the list. He really deserves to be, or at least on a tier with just him and Snake.

Falco, G&W, Dedede, and etc. destroy the competition just as effectively as Snake and MK do. They all deserve to be sharing that tier.

 

[viparagon]

Falco, G&W, Dedede, and etc. destroy the competition just as effectively as Snake and MK do. They all deserve to be sharing that tier.

I stilll think marth deserved that last stop over ROB
I guess marth will be forever doomed to top of high tire(boohoo.. poor girl)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Falco, G&W, Dedede, and etc. destroy the competition just as effectively as Snake and MK do. They all deserve to be sharing that tier.

No they dont.

Snake has disadvantages so does Mr retro and King Eagle, Falco's I think has disadvantages...he likely does I just know since he's off my radar.
MK has no disadvantages and the ones that are speculated are highly debatable.

MK's 3 highly contested match ups from what I've seen are Yoshi, DK and Snake.

Snake and DK are odd
Yoshi is odder, talk of yoshi stopping all ground approaches and Usmash stopping all MK's aerial stuff if Mk spaces incorrectly and grabs leading to free fair spikes and uair kills >.>

yet they are contested a lot, Snake and the rest can be shown pretty much clear disadvantages, MK can't, not now, possibly later.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Those are your personal opinions.


I really can't see why people are complaining (the 1 or 2 that are). The tier list isn't made by a bunch of people who have no clue what there doing. There are a lot of them and there all very intelligent at what there doing. So saying your tier list would be better is stupid.

Yeah, no crap there my opinions. What the hell else would they be?

 

[popsofctown]

MK doesn't deserve to share a tier with 5 other characters that he has 6/4 matchups against... i mean does that even make sense?

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

MK doesn't deserve to share a tier with 5 other characters that he has 6/4 matchups against... i mean does that even make sense?

Yeah that is what I am saying. I believe MK and Snake should share a tier, but not the others. If you look at that one thread with the characters ranked based on tournament results, you will see MK and Snake are the only two with over a thousand and the others are significantly behind.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I stilll think marth deserved that last stop over ROB
I guess marth will be forever doomed to top of high tire(boohoo.. poor girl)

The irony is, were MK gone, he'd almost definitely be the undisputed king. He's got the overall match-ups to do it, unfortunately there's somebody that is pretty much him, except he flies, and has a safe downsmash, etc.

Yes, Mk is basically a flying Marth with a few upgrades.

No they dont.

Snake has disadvantages so does Mr retro and King Eagle, Falco's I think has disadvantages...he likely does I just know since he's off my radar.
MK has no disadvantages and the ones that are speculated are highly debatable.

MK's 3 highly contested match ups from what I've seen are Yoshi, DK and Snake.

Snake and DK are odd
Yoshi is odder, talk of yoshi stopping all ground approaches and Usmash stopping all MK's aerial stuff if Mk spaces incorrectly and grabs leading to free fair spikes and uair kills >.>

yet they are contested a lot, Snake and the rest can be shown pretty much clear disadvantages, MK can't, not now, possibly later.

In pure match-ups, Marth is the closest, however MK mirrors (and is better at) his advantages and his sole disadvantage is MK, whereas Snake has legitimately easier times with plenty of match-ups. Hence why Marth isn't the second highest ranked in the game.

Snake and DK are both at a 60-40 disadvantage against MK. Yoshi SEEMS to be a neutral, but I really can't be sure, not familiar enough with the match-up.

MK doesn't deserve to share a tier with 5 other characters that he has 6/4 matchups against... i mean does that even make sense?

Not really, while they may be able to compete against MK, they're nowhere near as strong in the current metagame which MK has created.

 

[AlexX]

No they dont.

Yes, they do. Tournament results are not everything.

Snake has disadvantages so does Mr retro and King Eagle, Falco's I think has disadvantages...he likely does I just know since he's off my radar.

So does MK.

MK has no disadvantages and the ones that are speculated are highly debatable.

MK is indeed a beast on paper, but that's just theorycrafting. I know everyone here insists that there's nobody a skilled MK cannot beat, but frankly, I disagree. I'd like for someone to prove to me that MK can truly deal with the rest of the upper-tier characters with such ease (and note that having 1 stock left at the end of the match doesn't constitute an easy victory).

MK's 3 highly contested match ups from what I've seen are Yoshi, DK and Snake.

MK's matchups are, for the most part, 6-4 in his favor and even 5-5 matches. Yeah, he's really tough, but having a 6-4 is hardly an auto-win for MK. It's still close enough that the other character has a decent shot of winning. Likewise, a 5-5 match is just that: even. It's still not an auto-win for MK. A character doesn't need to have a 6-4 or greater out of their favor in order to be beatable.

Also, you forgot Diddy. I believe he has a 6-4 matchup in his favor against MK.

 

[adumbrodeus]

So does MK.

Not a single confirmed disadvantage.

MK is indeed a beast on paper, but that's just theorycrafting. I know everyone here insists that there's nobody a skilled MK cannot beat, but frankly, I disagree. I'd like for someone to prove to me that MK can truly deal with the rest of the upper-tier characters with such ease (and note that having 1 stock left at the end of the match doesn't constitute an easy victory).

That's not quite it, the point is that he has a major advantage (70-30 or better) on a signifigant portion of the cast, with 60-40s on most of the rest, and a few neutrals here and there.

MK's matchups are, for the most part, 6-4 in his favor and even 5-5 matches. Yeah, he's really tough, but having a 6-4 is hardly an auto-win for MK. It's still close enough that the other character has a decent shot of winning. Likewise, a 5-5 match is just that: even. It's still not an auto-win for MK. A character doesn't need to have a 6-4 or greater out of their favor in order to be beatable.

But, if you check the MK boards, they have a LOT of match-ups that are better then 60-40 listed, and you'll notice that most correlate to poor tournament performance.

60-40 is a competitive match, obviously, but enough of them is more then enough to push a character far above the rest of the cast, since it might not be a major advantage, it's skill a win given equal skill, most of the time.

Add enough 70-30s and above, and you've got the monster that is MK.

Also, you forgot Diddy. I believe he has a 6-4 matchup in his favor against MK.

Diddy is also debatable, and likely a neutral, though a disadvantage is quite possible.

 

[Dragonslayer9]

So, the official list is already here... It's in the general discussion.

Top
Metaknight
Snake
King DDD
Mr G&W
Falco
ROB

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
DK
Diddy
Pikachu
IC
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zamus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Shiek

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Cptn. Falcon


I personally think it sucks, but okay. Any thoughts?

I approve of this tier list greatly, seems that Pokemon trainer and Jigglypuff are under used.

 

[Big Red]

Top
Meta Knight
Snake

High
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
R.O.B.
Marth

Upper Mid
Wario
Lucario
Diddy
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Ice Climbers
Pikachu

Middle
Olimar
Pit
Wolf
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Peach
Ike
Sheik
Bowser
Luigi

Low
Ness
Lucas
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Yoshi
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Bottom
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

Basically a modified version of the BR list.

Major changes:

More tiers
Marth with his high tier pals
Wolf down
Toon Link down
Bowser down (I like bowser up, but not that up)
Luigi down (see Bowser)
Spelled Sheik's name right. :x

 

[powell651234]

Link is a good character on the stage...

Him and Olimar take huge hits because of gimpable recoveries...

Which shows how awesome Olimar is on the stage.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Diddy is at best neutral to MK. Most likely more along the lines of a slight disadvantage.

Besides that, no one has any other character that stacks up, and if they bring someone up, it is usually shot down. For some reason though, the character match-up thread (the older one) has DK being the only one that has an advantage to MK, but that is just plain wrong.

 

[Master Raven]

Has anyone actually come up with legitimate counters for Snake yet? MK is apparently the in thing right now and I keep hearing from people that Snake has a few disadvantageous matchups but I've yet to see them. Right now I don't think Snake has any matchups below his favor and at worst, he has some neutral ones.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Has anyone actually come up with legitimate counters for Snake yet? MK is apparently the in thing right now and I keep hearing from people that Snake has a few disadvantageous matchups but I've yet to see them. Right now I don't think Snake has any matchups below his favor and at worst, he has some neutral ones.

ROB is a definite counter. I've heard DK is, but I don't know anything about their match-up. Also, the Pit boards seem to be saying that Snake is a good match-up.

Anyway, ROB is a definte that I can agree with from personal experience.

 

[Master Raven]

I don't know about the ROB matchup but I can definitely say that Snake VS DK is even.

 

[Snail]

Olimar > Snake as well.

MK is broken but we can't ban him. We're not the ones to decide anyway. All we can do is hope (;

 

[gantrain05]

Has anyone actually come up with legitimate counters for Snake yet? MK is apparently the in thing right now and I keep hearing from people that Snake has a few disadvantageous matchups but I've yet to see them. Right now I don't think Snake has any matchups below his favor and at worst, he has some neutral ones.

well, i don't know about a "counter" but when i do ness vs snake it usually works pretty well, if you can get your Fair timing down to where u can Fair, and land on the ground before snake can Utilt you, its basically near impossible to punish, and its also not too hard to get kills on snake with ness's crazy Bthrow and insane spike ability. thats my two cents.

 

[Gindler]

You forgot pkt2...kills him at like 45 center of FD point bland of course =D

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Olimar > Snake as well.

MK is broken but we can't ban him. We're not the ones to decide anyway. All we can do is hope (;

I don't really hope he is banned, because I think others will start catching up in the metagame soon. That's what happened with Snake, just a month or two ago everyone said he was undoubtedly top tier.

And it is cool you live in Haarlem, the Netherlands is definitely my favorite country besides my own.

 

[Jim Morrison]

captain falcon should be in second lowest tier. he was good in melee, but they ****ed him up in brawl

 

[Crizthakidd]

maybe u should put the tier list on the OP

 

[Frown]

captain falcon should be in second lowest tier. he was good in melee, but they ****ed him up in brawl

Brawl Falcon = bottom.

Really.

 

[Excellence]

Has anyone actually come up with legitimate counters for Snake yet? MK is apparently the in thing right now and I keep hearing from people that Snake has a few disadvantageous matchups but I've yet to see them. Right now I don't think Snake has any matchups below his favor and at worst, he has some neutral ones.

Olimar? Question answered, maybe?