Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Chaco]

he state that yosh can have dash by fox troting and canceling is second he said also in his that it make him the 2nd fastest char in the game >_<

I would tell you to learn it but it is hella hard, go onto Wifi with Sub, one of you, to see this...it truly is insane. Seeing it up close will show youth truth.

 

[darkspatan117]

but did you compare it with falcon running speed does it go faster than is or not

 

[Mmac]

I would tell you to learn it but it is hella hard, go onto Wifi with Sub, one of you, to see this...it truly is insane. Seeing it up close will show youth truth.

Too bad it's a ***** to do online <_<

I'm not sub, but he tried to do it online. It's pretty much impossible...

Also I told him to put Falcon behind him >_<

 

[Chaco]

Too bad it's a ***** to do online <_<

I'm not sub, but he tried to do it online. It's pretty much impossible...

Also I told him to put Falcon behind him >_<

Me and Sub did it online back and forth at midnight last night....lol and our connection is mediocre at best.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Well it possible but every one who wanted to win in street fighter 2 turbo took Akuma and become Akuma vs Akuma maybe that what we will see in Brawl everyone will take MK

Did you read the Street Fighter link? Akuma was banned because he was 10 times better than everyone else, and that there were characters who absolutely could not beat him.

Is that true for MK? He's the best. He's got some nice **** match-ups. But, he's not THAT much better. Not enough so that no one else is winning, or no one else is being played. He doesn't have any major weaknesses, but he has even/slightly disadvantaged match-ups, which is a BIG difference from Akuma.

 

[jiovanni007]

Did you read the Street Fighter link? Akuma was banned because he was 10 times better than everyone else, and that there were characters who absolutely could not beat him.

Is that true for MK? He's the best. He's got some nice **** match-ups. But, he's not THAT much better. Not enough so that no one else is winning, or no one else is being played. He doesn't have any major weaknesses, but he has even/slightly disadvantaged match-ups, which is a BIG difference from Akuma.

There's a difference, because no character can beat Akuma in SF2T. Trust me, I've played it many a times with an actual arcade stick. Zankū Hadōken is Japanese for ****, not in the same **** that MK's gair or nado are, MK is at least considerate enough to use lube and knock you unconscious first. Akuma's air fireball is that rip your clothes off, and take it while you're screaming in pain ****. The angle is so ridiculous and your movement speed and a lack of dashing makes it so that you will be pelted by it numerous times. Akuma is miles ahead of everyone in SF2T.

MK is obviously the best, but he isn't even comparable to Fox in Melee. Shine > MK. MK only dominates the tournament scene because his metagame developed very rapidly and is probably at a stand still. Granted that stand still is the best in the game so far, but many characters haven't even reached maximum potential yet. 6 months into a game is far to early to call a ban on a character that still loses out to a variety of characters in practice. Every character community needs to learn how to fight him or pick up a another game please.

 

[Twilght Link]

Do you think its possible that someone may surpass mk once their metagame has developed as far as Mk's has thus far?

 

[Kiwikomix]

^ This is a good question.
It's possible some of the more underplayed characters will have a chance at it if more people start playing them seriously.
Unfortunately, that won't happen for a long while, and at this point it's probably best to keep a counterpick character on hand to deal specifically with MK, so that it's not a total **** matchup.
If you haven't noticed, many of the MK players that are able to place with him lack actual tech skill. If you can outmaneuver them and deal with the nado/shuttle loop spamming types, then you're on the right track.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Do you think its possible that someone may surpass mk once their metagame has developed as far as Mk's has thus far?

Most definitely. The problem now is there are soo many people playing MK that less people are playing other characters and therefore less people advancing the metagame.


Edit for misspelling.

 

[jiovanni007]

^ This is a good question.
It's possible some of the more underplayed characters will have a chance at it if more people start playing them seriously.
Unfortunately, that won't happen for a long while, and at this point it's probably best to keep a counterpick character on hand to deal specifically with MK, so that it's not a total **** matchup.
If you haven't noticed, many of the MK players that are able to place with him lack actual tech skill. If you can outmaneuver them and deal with the nado/shuttle loop spamming types, then you're on the right track.

^this, though I usually stick with Kirby and on some occasions Lucario when facing MK. Lucario is expected sometimes and most MKs don't think Kirby can deal with them. MK is still the best, I've actually posted that on this thread when everyone was swingin on Snake, but as time goes by, I can see the upper portion of the tournament results start to somewhat baseline though MK will still be the leader.

People just need to remember to play defensively. MK has ridiculous speed and priority so its never wise to go at him head on (unless you're GaW) since you'll more than likely take an attack to the face. Also remember that a MKs only move of average strength is his dsmash and shuttle loop. Most of his killing relies on gimps, so if you constantly rush in and attack, you'll die before him. Focusing on countering will allow you to rack damage a little quicker than normal and more than likely kill him earlier.

and darkspatan, use punctuation...please...

 

[Creo]

There's a difference, because no character can beat Akuma in SF2T. Trust me, I've played it many a times with an actual arcade stick. Zankū Hadōken is Japanese for ****, not in the same **** that MK's gair or nado are, MK is at least considerate enough to use lube and knock you unconscious first. Akuma's air fireball is that rip your clothes off, and take it while you're screaming in pain ****. The angle is so ridiculous and your movement speed and a lack of dashing makes it so that you will be pelted by it numerous times. Akuma is miles ahead of everyone in SF2T.

MK is obviously the best, but he isn't even comparable to Fox in Melee. Shine > MK. MK only dominates the tournament scene because his metagame developed very rapidly and is probably at a stand still. Granted that stand still is the best in the game so far, but many characters haven't even reached maximum potential yet. 6 months into a game is far to early to call a ban on a character that still loses out to a variety of characters in practice. Every character community needs to learn how to fight him or pick up a another game please.

I agree with this 100%.
Also add that he is still losing here and there when(with our current meta-game), he's at the top. And unless we discover a new technique that applies only to him, I don't believe he'll surpass much from his current
dominance.

 

[popsofctown]

It's a standstill... that's why interdimensional cape was discovered only a month ago?

 

[gantrain05]

yeah i disagree with banning meta, but i do agree that he is gay and broken, but i don't know about the fox statement, at least he had a recovery that you could gimp pretty easily.

 

[-Mars-]

It's a standstill... that's why interdimensional cape was discovered only a month ago?

Exactly.............no character is at a standstill right now, people are getting better every day. Just from my own personal experiences online, the level of play is increasing every month.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Exactly.............no character is at a standstill right now, people are getting better every day. Just from my own personal experiences online, the level of play is increasing every month.

Yes, but some a lot more then others. For example, Meta Knight ha so many people playing him that a lot of his strategies and techniques have been discovered. I am not saying he has hit a brick wall like others have said but it has definitely slowed. However, on the other end of the spectrum, there is the likes of Pokemon Trainer, which I believe has the most untapped potential, but the PT community isn't very hardcore, and therefore isn't as advanced.

And then also, there are others that might not have a lot of people playing them, but has enough very devoted fans that they are making great progress. Three that come to mind are Lucario, Diddy, and Olimar. All of whom are experiencing exponential growth in depth and skill.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

You people know there's a thread about banning MK. The only MK discusion that should be had here is weather or not MK is top tier, which we all know, so mk should never be mentioned

 

[sectorz]

Peach & Lucas Rocks!

In Another Note, I Do agree that the level of play is increasing every month. And the more i play with peach and lucas, The more I see how much they rock! I do believe that peach deserves to remain in the High Tier list. Her D-smash i'snt as powerful as it used to be, But it still punishes anyone who rolls behind her or comes in for a dash attack. Peach has insane air combo potential! Her float tech proves this! If your good with her, u can constantly juggle your opponent with her u-air when at low percentages. Peach bomber is really good for catching people off gaurd and if u hit it makes peach air-borne and u can Zone-in for a f-air smash! Even though she's been power-nerfed, Her moves now connect much better.

As for lucas, How can u not see how much power is bestowed in the little guy? Pk thunder edge-gaurding is awesome! If u use it at the right time u wont leave your self open. All of his smashes have really good K.O Potential. (Especially his godly Up-Smash) You can use mind-games to trick peole into rolling into it! Pk missle racks up the damage quickly especially when u use it to drage yourself on land. And all his air attacks might not have good range, But their strong and very fast such as his fair (which reminds me of zelda'a lightning kick) And his b-air that can spike if u hit it just right. All in all i think lucas deserves a spot in the High tier with peach! I'll become godly with these two to prove my point Also i think any character can become high and top tier, People just have to start playing with them and unlock thier full potential.

 

[Deathcarter]

In Another Note, I Do agree that the level of play is increasing every month. And the more i play with peach and lucas, The more I see how much they rock! I do believe that peach deserves to remain in the High Tier list. Her D-smash i'snt as powerful as it used to be, But it still punishes anyone who rolls behind her or comes in for a dash attack. Peach has insane air combo potential! Her float tech proves this! If your good with her, u can constantly juggle your opponent with her u-air when at low percentages. Peach bomber is really good for catching people off gaurd and if u hit it makes peach air-borne and u can Zone-in for a f-air smash! Even though she's been power-nerfed, Her moves now connect much better.

As for lucas, How can u not see how much power is bestowed in the little guy? Pk thunder edge-gaurding is awesome! If u use it at the right time u wont leave your self open. All of his smashes have really good K.O Potential. (Especially his godly Up-Smash) You can use mind-games to trick peole into rolling into it! Pk missle racks up the damage quickly especially when u use it to drage yourself on land. And all his air attacks might not have good range, But their strong and very fast such as his fair (which reminds me of zelda'a lightning kick) And his b-air that can spike if u hit it just right. All in all i think lucas deserves a spot in the High tier with peach! I'll become godly with these two to prove my point Also i think any character can become high and top tier, People just have to start playing with them and unlock thier full potential.

Exactly how do Peach and Lucas compete with the likes of DK, Lucario, Diddy, Olimar, Wario, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and others. Because those are the characters Peach and Lucas need to compare well to if they were to be placed in high tier.

But I agree, Peach and Lucas are good. They have some nice maneuvers.

 

[gantrain05]

Exactly how do Peach and Lucas compete with the likes of DK, Lucario, Diddy, Olimar, Wario, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and others. Because those are the characters Peach and Lucas need to compare well to if they were to be placed in high tier.

But I agree, Peach and Lucas are good. They have some nice maneuvers.

your kidding right? maybe people need to play peach and lucas more (moreso peach, lucas maybe mid tier) but peach completely just ***** DK when played right, its a 50/50 with wario and pika, float kills diddys crazy banana tactics, but i've never played a good IC player. she even does very well against snakes marths g&W and DDD, i guess alot of people really do underestimate peach.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

I am pretty doubtful of Peach really. She has such a fanatic player base that if such great in-depth strategies exist they should be discovered by now.

And I am really doubting she does very well against Snake, Marth, and Game and Watch. Maybe DD though. And I think Diddy would absolutely **** her from my experience.

I don't know though, maybe you are right.

 

[sectorz]

your kidding right? maybe people need to play peach and lucas more (moreso peach, lucas maybe mid tier) but peach completely just ***** DK when played right, its a 50/50 with wario and pika, float kills diddys crazy banana tactics, but i've never played a good IC player. she even does very well against snakes marths g&W and DDD, i guess alot of people really do underestimate peach.

Thanks for your response! People just dont understand how good she realy is. A Peach Mainer would know who she stand's well against and the characters u just called are all **** targets for peach. While i think that olimar gives peach some problems, The others are no match. Peach's skill shines in aerials
All are aerial moves are above average and have large ranges. Her dair ,bair and fair are her most essential moves. If u fight a skilled peach mainer (like me) u will probably see these moves coming at you. Lucas is indeed a power house, But he's more like a second main for me. His moves are strong but he doest have that much combo potential as peach. Plus his specials are all a bit laggy. He still rocks though.

 

[Creo]

^^ABOVE POST
I don't mind you defending Peach(if that counts for anything), but maybe you should post videos or face one of us to prove how good she is.
I'm a Marth main, and normally I would challenge you but my online is lag central. >_>
I'm just saying, I really haven't seen Peach **** anyone. My personal experiences w/her would say mid tier at best.
If you said you don't have online, my apologies.
I'm getting off topic.
Peach = Mid tier at best(for me) unless I see ******.

 

[Justblaze647]

I agree. I think that Peach is highly underestimated, and once more players pick her up seriously and get off the metaknight train, I think her metagame will rapidly develop.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

There's a difference, because no character can beat Akuma in SF2T. Trust me, I've played it many a times with an actual arcade stick. Zankū Hadōken is Japanese for ****, not in the same **** that MK's gair or nado are, MK is at least considerate enough to use lube and knock you unconscious first. Akuma's air fireball is that rip your clothes off, and take it while you're screaming in pain ****. The angle is so ridiculous and your movement speed and a lack of dashing makes it so that you will be pelted by it numerous times. Akuma is miles ahead of everyone in SF2T.

MK is obviously the best, but he isn't even comparable to Fox in Melee. Shine > MK. MK only dominates the tournament scene because his metagame developed very rapidly and is probably at a stand still. Granted that stand still is the best in the game so far, but many characters haven't even reached maximum potential yet. 6 months into a game is far to early to call a ban on a character that still loses out to a variety of characters in practice. Every character community needs to learn how to fight him or pick up a another game please.

Dude, why are you arguing with me? You just argreed with me almost exactly. >_<

 

[Chaco]

Wow, no Yoshi user in like a long while...

I even said that like 4 pages back, how it's to early to tell.

 

[popsofctown]

@sectorz
Welcome to the forums

I encourage you to use Peach, develop her play, and show people her strengths. She has a lot of tapped potential and a lot of untapped potential. Just remember that even if the advantages seem obvious to you, you need to go to tournaments to show people, because so much of what makes a brawl character superior is ineffable (wordless).
Many people are of the belief that Lucas is a good character at the base level, but lacks potential and places to go. You've partly identified some of the issues yourself: he can't combo, for one, comboing and pressure tend to be something that goes along with the character with more potential to gain. His upsmash requires winning a mindgame, and at higher levels of play it's difficult to win a mindgame as big as Lucas' upsmash, although it's not a completely useless move.
I encourage you to strength Peach more than Lucas.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd say you should use both. There are 35 chars, just try a lot of them to see, which one fits your playstyle. You can still use the other char as a second...

 

[Gindler]

I will say this. The only person I NEVER and will NEVER be able to beat was a peach main, she's got a good shield pressure game and combo game only thing is they both usually start with floating Dair so anything that outprioritizes that and you're in trouble. Oh and her Bair apparently beats out marth Fair so it has to have good priority. Peach bomber is soo annoying and people always forget how long the hitbox on it stays out (even me when I play as her). She has a ridiculously good air game, but her Dsmash and Fsmash are kinda nothing to speak of, Her Usmash though has obscene power though and is fairy easy to follow up with after a good Dair.

All in all peach is severely underrated and more will be picking her up soon (azen kinda uses her)

 

[FS Fantom]

Wait...what's a gair?

 

[Twilght Link]

Though i dont want Link to be overused, i really wish more people used him to untap more of his potential. Imo he has alot of potential and in the hands of a smart person who can play his mindgames, Link can own. The only thing REALLY holding him back is his recovery, though proper DI makes it decent. Hopefully a new AT specifically for Link that helps his recovery will bump his game up. With a better recovery, Link would be at least in the upper half of low tier or even *gasps* mid tier (a place Link has never reached in any game thus far to my knowledge)

 

[sectorz]

^^ABOVE POST
I don't mind you defending Peach(if that counts for anything), but maybe you should post videos or face one of us to prove how good she is.
I'm a Marth main, and normally I would challenge you but my online is lag central. >_>
I'm just saying, I really haven't seen Peach **** anyone. My personal experiences w/her would say mid tier at best.
If you said you don't have online, my apologies.
I'm getting off topic.
Peach = Mid tier at best(for me) unless I see ******.

sure lets battle sometime. My fc is 5069 3677 4088.

And watch this. I dont have a capture card so i cant show u some of my matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9OfEl3cSb0

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Wait...what's a gair?

Possibly he meant fair, or that's just what I figured.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Though i dont want Link to be overused, i really wish more people used him to untap more of his potential. Imo he has alot of potential and in the hands of a smart person who can play his mindgames, Link can own. The only thing REALLY holding him back is his recovery, though proper DI makes it decent. Hopefully a new AT specifically for Link that helps his recovery will bump his game up. With a better recovery, Link would be at least in the upper half of low tier or even *gasps* mid tier (a place Link has never reached in any game thus far to my knowledge)

he was actually mid tier for part of melee's history.

And then he fell again XD

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Wait...what's a gair?

G is right next to F on the keyboard, so I'd put money on it being fair.
(Yes, it's next to B as well, but it's much easier to hit G instead of F than it is to hit G instead of B)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

G is also very close to d on the keys...it could be anything <_<

 

[stoopdklutz]

Never mid tier at least? That sucks...

 

[Zinc Elemental]

G is also very close to d on the keys...it could be anything <_<

That's a two key jump. Unless his fingers are so bad that they're hitting notes two keys over from the intended one, it makes much more sense that he'd hit G instead of F.

Why are we arguing this?

 

[Kiwikomix]

"Gair" stands for "gay air", or an aerial that everyone hates because it's gay. G-Dub's bair, for example, qualifies as a gair. MK's tornado, although not an aerial specifically, could qualify as a gair if used off the ground.

It's quality posts like this that makes tier discussion worth visiting.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

"Gair" stands for "gay air", or an aerial that everyone hates because it's gay. G-Dub's bair, for example, qualifies as a gair. MK's tornado, although not an aerial specifically, could qualify as a gair if used off the ground.

It's quality posts like this that makes tier discussion worth visiting.

Does Marth's fair qualify?

 

[sectorz]

Marth's fair does have some qualities of gair, But G& W's Bair Defenitely Qualifies!