Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

If you are under ZSS and you start a nado, she has to flipkick, right? It is her only option of escaping it. Then you just do a downward arc in the same direction as ZSS and catch her.

No, it isn't. For one, if MK is directly below her, she can dair him out of it.
She can also aim bair/nair/sourspot uair to hit MK out of it.
She can also simply fall in one direction, and downB (without the flipkick) in the other direction. Tornado can't change directions very quickly so she's probably going to be able to land and shield before she gets hit by it.

And chances are, if she's above an MK, she has her 2nd jump. So she can just jump to stall and then land when nado finishes.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

For some reason I don't see ZSS's dair to be disjointed enough to trade or beat tornado.

 

[infiniteV115]

The move doesn't need to be disjointed to hit MK out of nado if it's coming from directly above...that's the part of nado where MK's hurtboxes are exposed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hey man, if you can avoid CPU Meta Knights juggling you with those tactics, all power to you.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The move doesn't need to be disjointed to hit MK out of nado if it's coming from directly above...that's the part of nado where MK's hurtboxes are exposed.

*looks at hitboxes*

o.

Okay.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

btw aero you were wrong Rollout does take speed into account for damage

 

[Hippieslayer]

goes even with metaknight imo. She is a lot closer then ppl think.

Yeah. Why? Actually. No, Zero Suit Samus is a ****y character that is hardly better than King DDD; all of her stupid attacks can be shielded for easy destruction of her. Have you seen some of M2K's games vs Riddler? There wasnt jack **** he could do.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah. Why? Actually. No, Zero Suit Samus is a ****y character that is hardly better than King DDD; all of her stupid attacks can be shielded for easy destruction of her. Have you seen some of M2K's games vs Riddler? There wasnt jack **** he could do.

Wow for some reason this sounds like most peoples' games against m2k

 

[infiniteV115]

*looks at hitboxes*

o.

Okay.

Was this sarcasm?
I don't actually know how disjointed ZSS' dair is, but I know for a fact that you can dair MK out of nado cause I've done it.
I've even seen things like Pikachu's fair go through nado, and that move definitely doesn't seem disjointed.
And look, the sourspot (back hit) of ZSS' uair can hit him out of it too, and I KNOW that the sourspot has very little disjoint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf8lbK5_75k&t=26s

@Grim I'm not saying that she's going to avoid nado 100% of the time, I'm saying that it's an exaggeration for you to say that she only has 1 option to a nado below her and that she's 'easily juggled' by nado.

And honestly the fact that you mentioned her flipkick when saying that MK can easily edgeguard her leads me to question how much you know about the MU. ZSS almost never uses flipkick when recovering XD

 

[KuroganeHammer]

btw aero you were wrong Rollout does take speed into account for damage

Does it? Okay.

Not that it really matters seeing as it can never do more than 18% damage.

Was this sarcasm?

Nope, I went off and checked. lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It can do 19 or 20% damage with a fresh bonus.

infinite: She only has two recovery moves, gotta mention both of them in case there is something I was missing. DRN did say that she has "so many mix-ups".

I can count the number of times I've been hit out of nado from above on my fingers, it really isn't that practical because MK has so much more control over the relative position of both players than his opponent.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I suppose 19% is closer than 18%, but no @ 20%. With the fresh bonus, the maximum is 18.9%. lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My copy of the game is clearly glitched then.

Try using the attack fully charged down a slope.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

How intriguing! I stand completely corrected.

I wonder why the float determines 180.0 to be the max damage that the move can deal? That doesn't really make any sense at all. I mean, I knew that the move was affected by slopes but...

Edit: Then again, this is Brawl.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Explanation: moves deal more damage in training mode than they do in versus mode because of a technicality I can't remember.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Saaaakuuurraaaiii!!!

Some other intriguing properties: Rollout's speed gradually increases as it travels down slopes, but on upward slopes the INITIAL speed is decreased but there is no gradual slow-down.

Rollout always seems to have the same duration (roughly 2.5 seconds), uncharged/fully charged/aerial/whatever except in one situation: If you hit a wall with an uncharged rollout it briefly hits the wall and then cancels out of it with a bit of lag for some reason.

It seems like Rollout has 3 interactions with a wall: Push against it (either happens when speed is really low, or when doing the pivot. I can't tell which cause the only way you can get Rollout slow enough is the pivot I think). Hit it and then cancel (only seems to happen when I tap b) or bounce off of it without losing any speed.

I almost completely understand the move now except for a few little things.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Explanation: moves deal more damage in training mode than they do in versus mode because of a technicality I can't remember.

know.

Moves deal less damage in training mode because training mode totally ignores the stale move negation queue.

Saaaakuuurraaaiii!!!

Some other intriguing properties: Rollout's speed gradually increases as it travels down slopes, but on upward slopes the INITIAL speed is decreased but there is no gradual slow-down.

Rollout always seems to have the same duration (roughly 2.5 seconds), uncharged/fully charged/aerial/whatever except in one situation: If you hit a wall with an uncharged rollout it briefly hits the wall and then cancels out of it with a bit of lag for some reason.

It seems like Rollout has 3 interactions with a wall: Push against it (either happens when speed is really low, or when doing the pivot. I can't tell which cause the only way you can get Rollout slow enough is the pivot I think). Hit it and then cancel (only seems to happen when I tap b) or bounce off of it without losing any speed.

I almost completely understand the move now except for a few little things.

Well there's a float that says Jigglypuff rolls around for 90 frames. That's why the move is so consistent with that. (probably doesn't count end lag, only the number of frames it can have a hitbox)

About the speed thing, if speed is a factor in damage, Jigglypuff doesn't speed up gradually when going down a slope because no matter how long she's rolling around on a slope the damage stops at about 20 base damage. :/

I managed to get 8% while going up a hill after pivoting a couple of times too.

Bouncing off a wall reduces Jigglypuff's speed by 25% (It's actually a multiplyer of 0.75).

/random offtopic soz guys lol

 

[infiniteV115]

know.

Moves deal less damage in training mode because training mode totally ignores the stale move negation queue.

I'm guessing you meant to say that they do MORE damage XD

Edit: Hi Peachy

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

know.

Moves deal less damage in training mode because training mode totally ignores the stale move negation queue.

Doesn't it acutally go further than this though? Like, don't moves always do something like 15% more damage (I can never remember the exact number) in training mode?

I know it has to do with stale move negation but there's some weird reason it works this way, like in versus mode every move starts staled by 1 but in training mode they're never staled at all.

Edit: I remember, it's 5%. In training mode, moves do 105% damage at all times.

 

[infiniteV115]

You sure?
Cause ZSS nair does exactly 10% in training mode, as well as in versus mode...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm guessing you meant to say that they do MORE damage XD

Edit: Hi Peachy

Err, no. I didn't mean they do more damage at all. Moves used in training mode only do the base damage of an attack.

Example, Zelda's Lightning Kick does 21% in Versus mode when it is totally fresh. In Training mode, it only does 20%.

Doesn't it acutally go further than this though? Like, don't moves always do something like 15% more damage (I can never remember the exact number) in training mode?

I know it has to do with stale move negation but there's some weird reason it works this way, like in versus mode every move starts staled by 1 but in training mode they're never staled at all.

No they don't.

And there are no moves in the stale move negation queue when you start a match in versus mode.

You sure?
Cause ZSS nair does exactly 10% in training mode, as well as in versus mode...

This is a special case. ZSS's nair doesn't enter the stale move negation queue ever, therefore it cannot be staled, cannot receive the 1.05 damage multiplier when fresh and cannot unstale other moves.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You sure?
Cause ZSS nair does exactly 10% in training mode, as well as in versus mode...

Nope, not sure at all!

That's why I'm asking. A long time ago, FadedImage (one of the earliest ZSS mains around in SoCal) explained to me that in training mode all moves deal 105% damage, and I just took that at face value.

To be honest I've had codes that allow stale move negation in training mode for so long that it's not really relevant to me anyway :\

EDIT: Also I just read about ZSS' recovery in the discussion above, and I think Infinite guy has this right. ZSS' recovery has to be played against pretty carefully because of the threat of down b (both the kick and headbounce versions -- one offers a spike, the other offers safety if the opponent doesn't account for it) but it isn't really used much because if the guy is just standing there onstage in a neutral state it's very easy to punish it.

In other words, the down b provides an option that has to be accounted for, and that's about it. I think her best recovery tool is probably the boost jump from up+b to be honest. In addition ZSS has a lot of aggressive options for punishing guys who try to edgehog or gimp her aside from down b (like her uair if coming from below etc.)

ZSS' recovery isn't the best in the game and generally speaking she takes some damage off-stage but she usually makes it back, too. It's really hard to stop her from coming back to the stage. Note that this doesn't mean it never happens, she uses tethers after all.

 

[Linkshot]

Don't forget that getting dragged by a floor (Mushroomy, Frigate, Smashville) count as "extra speed" (your speed is considered relative to the blastzones) so Rollout can at least be a scare tactic in those situations...not that Mushroomy is legal at all, but it's still a good example. Remember when Yoshi mains found out that instant kill Egg Roll on Frigate? Same deal with Rollout.

 

[DRN]

Yeah. Why? Actually. No, Zero Suit Samus is a ****y character that is hardly better than King DDD; all of her stupid attacks can be shielded for easy destruction of her. Have you seen some of M2K's games vs Riddler? There wasnt jack **** he could do.

I mentioned in my post that I've even played m2k in that match up.... Didn't seem that bad to me even after he switched to his "serious" controller.

@grim like I said I can do a write up when I have time on my computer.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Wow for some reason this sounds like most peoples' games against m2k

For some reason (probably because it was less M2K being brilliant and more M2K simply playing the matchup right) that doesn't strike me as particularly relevant seeing as I could easily picture any other top MK doing the same thing.

This video may be old but bear in mind that ZSS's metagame hasn't exactly developed very much since anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGx1bEtPEII

Sure she has endless mixups and different ways to deliver her attacks but it really doesn't matter when ALL of them ultimately fail so long as the opponent shields.

Also bear in mind I'm not saying Metaknight destroys ZSS here, I'm just saying that it's idiotic to believe the matchup to be even. Then again that's a general issue with Metaknight, even if you took all his matchups and subtracted them by the value of 1 you wouldn't be to far from the real picture.

And @ DRN: Not that bad aint even.

 

[infiniteV115]

Uh that video is a terrible indicator of the ZSS:MK MU, no good ZSS would play it now the way Nick did. He made so many mistakes (that I'm sure he could point out) like

-Throwing a suitpiece at the bottom of MK's nado -.-
-Not following up his dash attack with utilt
-Running away from MK's glide (he can uair fair or shield-->utilt). He tried to sideB it instead...
-Jumping over MK after shielding ftilt3 (like WTF XD)

I could go on but practically every time he got hit..it's because he did something stupid, not because it's a bad MU.

 

[DRN]

And @ DRN: Not that bad aint even.

Oh ya I forgot I'm just as good as m2k.... But seriously a match up can be listed as even when top players of each character lose to each other. I mean just because the characters go even doesn't mean the players do.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Easy to say, the truth of the matter; notwithstanding you attemps to avoid it, is that he did precisely the same amount of stupid **** in the more recent games vs Ally the difference being that his latter opponent got completely flustered and did a number of misstakes more grave in character than those of Riddles which you mentioned. If Ally had instead utilized all the chances he got to counterattack he would've won. Only using the safest and best options with ZSS isn't an alternative either because it makes your playstyle predictable as ****, hence when playing with ZSS you have to do this silly mixup mindgaming with your pattern of attacking and hope that it will overwhelm your opponent, because if it doesn't you're screwed since none of her options are particularly good on their own.

Furthermore if you watch that video again you might also take care to notice that M2K himself screws up a number of times.

@DRN: No it can't because then obscure characters with extremly few top player mains could go even against a bunch of characters even though everyone knows they don't.

 

[infiniteV115]

Hippie, what are you trying to say? Just that the MU isn't even?

 

[Hippieslayer]

Yes, but my hatred for ZSS seems to be shining through a lot lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol, it definitely is.
...Do you have experience against any ZSSs in your region? Do you even play this game offline? Or are you just theorycrafting? XD

 

[Hippieslayer]

Nah I have no tourney experience and there is no scene where I live, I have to resort to watching videos copying what I see while doing endless battles against a few friends doing the same thing. I mained ZSS for about a year and a half and then just gave up on her mainly because everything got blocked and I simply couldnt come up with anything to do. My friends just knew the character and my playstyle to well.

So if you pull the you aint pro player card on me I can't really say much in return, its probs true lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

No scene where you live?
Are you from Zimbabwe or something?

 

[Hippieslayer]

nah just a stupid part of sweden, but were getting off topic. ZSS sux dix

 

[infiniteV115]

I think her current position on the tier list is accurate. Perhaps eventually she might move into top tier and/or above Marth and/or Wario, but I really really doubt it and I don't think it should happen just yet.

 

[GOofyGV]

I honestly think that at least marth is better.
but wario is probably better as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario is rather good, yeah.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well there's a float that says Jigglypuff rolls around for 90 frames. That's why the move is so consistent with that. (probably doesn't count end lag, only the number of frames it can have a hitbox)

Thought so.

About the speed thing, if speed is a factor in damage, Jigglypuff doesn't speed up gradually when going down a slope because no matter how long she's rolling around on a slope the damage stops at about 20 base damage. :/

SLOPE TESTS: Tested with a fresh, fully charged Rollout on a Custom Stage in Training Mode.

GROUND 1 (0°):
Close: 18%
Middle: 18%
Far: 18%

GROUND 2 (22.5°):
Uphill Close: 17%
Uphill Middle: 17%
Uphill Far: 17%

Downhill Close: 18%
Downhill Middle: 19%
Downhill Far: 19%

GROUND 3 (45°):
Uphill Close: 16%
Uphill Middle: 16%
Uphill Far: 16%

Downhill Close: 18%
Downhill Middle: 20%
Downhill Far: 20%

Explain those results then lol.

I managed to get 8% while going up a hill after pivoting a couple of times too.

Odd.

Bouncing off a wall reduces Jigglypuff's speed by 25% (It's actually a multiplyer of 0.75).

Mah bad.

Rollout is actually pretty good, so strong even if partially charged.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Downhill Close: 18%
Downhill Middle: 20%
Downhill Far: 20%

Explain those results then lol.

I got 20% on the downhill close.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll test again right nowwwww