Official BBR Tier List v7

[Sinister Slush]

How did rise?
I feel as though none of these things can properly be answered.

You're right about that, I can't properly answer that since I don't see what's going on back there in the BBR for their reasoning behind him rising.
But at best, my guess is Yoshi rose from Deltas wins from a couple of big tournaments like Neo Malcolm etc.
I guess factor in a few random Yoshi's doing good in their region as well.

I wanna know why DK dropped so much, despite Will's performance at APEX 2012 getting 25th.

 

[z00ted]

DK did not deserve such a drastic drop.

This tier list was terrible, in my opinion.
It's far too dramatic, I know almost everyone in Houston/Texas thinks it's a complete joke.

And we have the most 'Top 5' players out of any other state, so we shouldn't be disagreeing so heavily with a so called up to date tier list.

 

[Cassio]

Well heres the thing. I agree that the black and white "X player isnt relevant anymore" is pretty dumb and mindless. However a person representing a character can fall off in two different ways. They can either:

A. Stop playing as much and therefore produce less results; or
B. Start losing more and become less significant in results

The latter affects placement (or should) considerably more than the former.

It can be a bit tough to judge since one can often lead to the other, but I think you can sort of tell most of the time. The reason Im critical of Luigi is because from what I saw the latter was occurring. Biglou did well at MLG Orlando, then failed to do exceptionally until he finally switched mains. Boss has been on and off the game for years but imo his results dont match what his luigi was previously capable of. We saw the same thing with characters like DDD and ROB.

Compare to someone like Falco, where larry just sort of disappeared due to life. He comes back for big events and suddenly people remember that Falco is actually still a very good character. Ditto Koolaid. Someone might also have consistent results with a character, but decide it isnt enough and switch characters to improve results as opposed to falling results (Reflex, Rain, etc.). In this case the character didnt suddenly start sucking or losing more, his representation just went elsewhere.

Perhaps luigi falls into category B, maybe someone can show that to me. But from my current vantage point he fits category A more.

In regards to the success/popularity chart, its biggest issue imo is that it doesnt regard placements outside money. For instance, luigi could place 4-8 at every tournament with 20,30,40 people but still be considered inferior to a character that places 3rd once or twice. Thats a large exaggeration, but it likely affects lower tiers more than most since most of them arent likely to place in money even if they do well. I agree with the sentiments of its use though and think it was a good first try.

 

[z00ted]

Yeah, that's another great point about the chart that I failed in remembering about.

I agree with you on the Luigi stuff, but like I've already said - there are more players than just Boss/BigLou (YoshQ, JbAndrew, MrConCon) and I'm fairly sure that Boss has been doing a few things with Luigi within these past six months.

I'm trying to figure out why Luigi received the shortest end of the stick, while other characters such as Sheik and Yoshi rose.. and Ness didn't even rise at all. Once again, his drop was far too drastic for me.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Luigi DK and Marth had unnecessary drops, but I cannot see Luigi above Yoshi.

Not main bias, just... Luigi is a decent character but alot of glaring flaws about him and the fact not many people have been repping him.
Like what Tag said, Biglou was one of the biggest sources for Luigi being viable, but with him switching to Diddy Kong... he kinda just fell off the face of the earth.

Also, if you wanna point out unnecessary rises... look at Sheilda.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well Ness is a given, PT has you, and Yoshi I'm not too sure about.. if anything, none of these are drastic.

Luigi has held his own in the past, it just doesn't get brought to the light. I'm positive that BigLou has beaten both Atomsk and Trela. Boss has taken out Coney and the rest of MD/VA multiple times, YoshQ has had achievements, JbAndrew has won tournaments, etc etc. Luigi has also had more players using him successfully than any of those three characters mentioned (especially PT).

You're not really giving me any points as to why Luigi is so bad.. just nitpicking at small errors I've written.

mains that are viable

FOW
Shaky

mains that are viable

Reflex

mains that are viable

Poltergust
Deltacod
Hadesblade (?)

mains that are viable

BigLou
Boss
MrConCon
Scatz
YoshQ
Zhao
JbAndrew

See what I'm getting at here?
All of those players do very well in their region too.

Players in bold I've never heard of before. Notice that they're all in the Luigi list? Even then, I've barely heard of Scatz or YoshQ, and I haven't heard of Boss or BigLou pulling out big results with Luigi in a while. The only other main I've barely heard of on that list is Hadesblade.

Luigi really doesn't have much in the way of mains atm.

 

[Cassio]

^Niddo that may be your own fault or ignorance of luigi. MrConCon is arguably the best luigi and at least top 3, and JbAndrew is definitely a notable name. Actually I think if anyone will prove luigi is good itll be concon. He legit thinks his character can do well and has the ambition (and ego) to succeed if he can.

Well the other issue is the lower you fall on the chart the more you have to rely on theory. It was like Id mentioned in regards to the pika-pit MU where it would be nice to use results but we just didnt have any, so in the end you really cant avoid theory and guesswork unless you force MUs to occur somehow. Yes its possible it could be inaccurate, that should be acknowledged, but you do the best that you can with what you have.

I agree about Ness. Yoshi has a category A character with polt who iirc did well at Apex, plus Deltacod. Actually in mid-tiers the only ones who dont have a mid-tier hero are luigi and sheik, but sheiks do exist in Japan depending on how much thats weighed.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Scatz is a Pika/Yoshi main.
While hadesblade is a Yoshi main from AZ. (A bit mixed up here but he might either went to school in AZ, or he lives there... I forget)

I agree about Ness. Yoshi has a category A character with polt who iirc did well at Apex, plus Deltacod. Actually in mid-tiers the only ones who dont have a mid-tier hero are luigi and sheik, but sheiks do exist in Japan depending on how much thats weighed.

Isn't Judo considered a hero?

 

[Espy Rose]

For winning on a technicality, yeah.

 

[z00ted]

^LOL

This list takes into consideration Japanese players?

And when I say that, I mean their players that haven't traveled here to compete or are in the BBR to talk about stuff (which obviously they wouldn't be or is very rare).

 

[Cassio]

I limited it to people who've performed well at nationals or very big regionals with stacked competition.

Also just for fun imo:

Category A: San, PikPik, Polt, Anther, Leepuff?, Shaky, Dojo, Fiction, Lee, Chu, Espy, X, Vex, Legan
Category B: most DDD players, most GW players, most ROB players, most Luigi players

Not making a statement about the characters themselves, just individual results.

Edit: I dont know to what degree japan was incorporated if at all, or whether it should or shouldnt be. I was just making a note of it in case they were.

 

[BSP]

Boss is more of the first case, and Big Lou is more of the second in regards to Luigi. From what I've heard, Boss doesn't enter singles that much anymore.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Well Ness is a given, PT has you, and Yoshi I'm not too sure about.. if anything, none of these are drastic.

Luigi has held his own in the past, it just doesn't get brought to the light. I'm positive that BigLou has beaten both Atomsk and Trela. Boss has taken out Coney and the rest of MD/VA multiple times, YoshQ has had achievements, JbAndrew has won tournaments, etc etc. Luigi has also had more players using him successfully than any of those three characters mentioned (especially PT).

You're not really giving me any points as to why Luigi is so bad.. just nitpicking at small errors I've written.

mains that are viable

FOW
Shaky

mains that are viable

Reflex

mains that are viable

Poltergust
Deltacod
Hadesblade (?)

mains that are viable

BigLou
Boss
MrConCon
Scatz
YoshQ
Zhao
JbAndrew

See what I'm getting at here?
All of those players do very well in their region too.

P.S I don't really care where Luigi is but..

Big Lou really doesn't use Luigi as much as he used to.. he can't remain relevant forever... unless he ACTUALLY uses him.

Boss just now started to enter singles again. He only really entered singles if He knew he was going to get first or place in the money, which means almost no1 notable had to be in attendance. He usually just did MM and doubles when he showed up to tournaments probably.

MrConCon has 1 (major) win under his belt... iirc he hasn't beaten anyone somewhat good since then. Upsets do happen.

Scatz doesn't play

YoshQ does work in his region probably.

no idea about Zhao

Jbandrew is pretty much a player who revolves around counter picking his opponents. It's his playstyle... he probably would only use luigi against friends or people he knows he will be regardless of what character.

 

[RNH]

Game and Watch in high. plz =D

 

[z00ted]

I understand all of this, I'm just wondering what constituted a -4 drop other than the small summary on the OP of this thread.

 

[Scatz]

Wtf you people. There are two people with similar names. Scatt is the Luigi/Snake/Olimar main while I'm Scatz (hence my swf name) Yoshi/Pika main. Get it right damn it! ****ing no respect...

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Niddo that may be your own fault or ignorance of luigi. MrConCon is arguably the best luigi and at least top 3, and JbAndrew is definitely a notable name. Actually I think if anyone will prove luigi is good itll be concon. He legit thinks his character can do well and has the ambition (and ego) to succeed if he can.

How long have those two been playing? Normally if a player is doing well with an usual character word gets around. They just aren't ringing any bells for me at all.

 

[z00ted]

Wtf you people. There are two people with similar names. Scatt is the Luigi/Snake/Olimar main while I'm Scatz (hence my swf name) Yoshi/Pika main. Get it right damn it! ****ing no respect...

LOL salt. sorry d00d

ConCon is the best Luigi, in my opinion.

Outclasses all the others from what I've seen off of Wi-Fi.
I just want him to step out and start doing things.

 

[BSP]

MrConCon had that one win over DEHF at that one tournament, but hasn't had anything huge since then.

I don't remember Jband's biggest win with Luigi, but he did well with him for a while. He started going other characters (mostly ) though, so his Luigi rep has gone down a good bit.

 

[Scatz]

Normally if a player is doing well with an usual character word gets around.

Normally, but players often slip through with little exposure.

@Illmatic: It's cool. It's aggrevating seeing people mistake ya for someone else constantly.

 

[infiniteV115]

How long have those two been playing? Normally if a player is doing well with an usual character word gets around. They just aren't ringing any bells for me at all.

Maybe that's because you don't really play this game anymore?

 

[Cassio]

Youre not Scatz youre biggy

@Niddo Well most people dont know about WC results so thats not just you, but thats where ConCons from and hes been around for about 9 monhts. Jbandrew uses other characters too but hes been around forever.

@Ill, He fell below Ness, Yoshi, Shiek, and PT. I think Ness and Yoshi are fairly understandable. His fall below sheik and PT are likely more theory based (and success/popularity), although I cant say I fully understand it or know a lot about those three. However my experience vs luigi is that its just exceptionally easy to bat him away and his mobility makes this hinderance even worse since you can react to his approaches to keep batting at him. Yeah if the luigi's smart they can get a couple hard reads and inflict more damage than anyone around him, but I wouldnt say hes more capable than others at making these reads, and also give more credit to traits that provide more consistency which I think Sheik and PT have a bit more of like speed and range.

 

[z00ted]

Good writeup.
Poor Luigi.. I still think he's worth something : (

 

[Lukingordex]

Is possible to do a alternative Tier list without Meta Kinght?

If it is,big changes can happens in some characters´ positions?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Maybe that's because you don't really play this game anymore?

Belleville doesn't have a scene, and I'd have to drive several hours minimum to reach the nearest tournament. I'm trying to keep up with what's going on at least.

@Niddo Well most people dont know about WC results so thats not just you, but thats where ConCons from and hes been around for about 9 monhts. Jbandrew uses other characters too but hes been around forever.

Ah, WC would explain it then.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is possible to do a alternative Tier list without Meta Kinght?

If it is,big changes can happens in some characters´ positions?

isn't even the character that puts characters in positions they are. A lot of other factors do. Only character I see affected highly by in regards to tier position is who would be the best character in the game with him gone.

Cg's, range, and adaptability summarize break downs. Grab releases keep the Psi boys in check ( isn't even the primary user of this, but he can of course use GR's on them).

 

[FlareHabanero]

Is possible to do a alternative Tier list without Meta Kinght?

If it is,big changes can happens in some characters´ positions?

Arguable if Meta Knight was removed for a separate tier list, there would be very little influence in the actual position of all the other characters. However, some specific Meta Knight only tactics (like the Marth grab thing) would become extinct or altered for a different purpose.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

isn't even the character that puts characters in positions they are. A lot of other factors do. Only character I see affected highly by in regards to tier position is who would be the best character in the game with him gone.

I disagree with that. MK is Ike's only 3-7 MU. With MK gone, Ike has a noticeably higher chance of placing in a tournament, as every other MU is more manageable. I believe Toon Link is in a similar boat where MK is noticeably a step harder for him over every other MU.

There wouldn't be drastic changes cross the board, but a handful of characters would get shuffled around.

 

[John12346]

R.O.B., Dedede, and Peach, to lesser extents since they all still have trouble matchups outside of MK.

I thought we determined a long time ago that a character's matchup against MK played a big role in their tier position just because of how goddamn dominant he is.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I disagree with that. MK is Ike's only 3-7 MU. With MK gone, Ike has a noticeably higher chance of placing in a tournament, as every other MU is more manageable. I believe Toon Link is in a similar boat where MK is noticeably a step harder for him over every other MU.

There wouldn't be drastic changes cross the board, but a handful of characters would get shuffled around.

You make it seem like doesn't already +2/+3 most of LT/Low mid. Only character he doesn't as far as I know is who is even with .

 

[z00ted]

Did I just read what I think I just read....

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You make it seem like doesn't already +2/+3 most of LT/Low mid. Only character he doesn't as far as I know is who is even with .

*chuckles at Ness being "even" with MK*

Regardless, some of those other mid/low tier characters have other 3-7 MUs. Losing all of your 3-7 MUs increases a characters's chances a lot more than only getting rid of half or a third of them.

 

[infiniteV115]

TKD is also of the opinion that : is even. Though I don't agree (MK does pretty well against Ness offstage considering Ness' terrible recovery, so Ness would have to win onstage for it to be even and...I don't see that happening), it does seem like a very close-to-even MU and I definitely disagree with what the chart says (-2)

 

[Cassio]

I think Ike and TL are the only ones who are majorly affected. Most characters who are good against MK tend to be good against most the cast, and those who do poorly have other problem MUs.

I hate fighting Ness.

 

[Espy Rose]

Ness vs. MK even?
Be right back. I'll be busy laughing the rest of my day away.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Ness vs. Meta Knight is so 2009. Link vs. Meta Knight is what the cool kids do these days.

 

[z00ted]

TKD also thinks Fox beats MK.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I wouldn't say even, but, Ness has a lot of things going for him against Meta Knight. Certainly -1 if we're going to take other claims as even or -1.

 

[BSP]

R.O.B., Dedede, and Peach, to lesser extents since they all still have trouble matchups outside of MK.

and too. They've got other problems, but MK is on a whole different level.

 

[Lukingordex]

Ness even with MK lol

My dream.

But maybe a -1