Official BBR Tier List v7

[~ Gheb ~]

Samus does better in all those matchups except Dedede sorry.

AMAZING argumentation skills, bro. U WRONG. NO U. NO U NO U!

Breaking news here folks!!

Sheik is now High tier.

Sheik doesn't hard counter Fox

You make it seem like doesn't already +2/+3 most of LT/Low mid. Only character he doesn't as far as I know is who is even with .

I would assume Lucas doesn't have that terrible a match-up against MK either.

TKD also thinks Fox beats MK.

No, he doesn't. He thinks it's even, which is correct.

 

[infiniteV115]

AMAZING argumentation skills, bro. U WRONG. NO U. NO U NO U!

It's funny cause that's usually what you do.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You know it's not like that. If you wanna troll me, try harder.

 

[Luigi player]

mains that are viable

BigLou
Boss
MrConCon
Scatz
YoshQ
Zhao
JbAndrew

I wish BigLou would still use Luigi he created so much hype during MLG

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He does it against certain players, but, it's pretty rare overall.

 

[Player-1]

player-3 isn't a luigi main per se, but he uses him a bit in tournament and would be up there.

 

[PSI Nexus]

vs. is definitely not even. Maybe -1, but definitely -2

Also kinda should be a -3 vs. .

 

[Tesh]

vs. is definitely not even. Maybe -1, but definitely -2

Also kinda should be a -3 vs. .

What?

 

[FlareHabanero]

What?

In a nutshell: Meta Knight destroys Ness less then Lucas (though both are still wrecked).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

vs. is definitely not even. Maybe -1, but definitely -2

Also kinda should be a -3 vs. .

Thank you for this amazing contribution. The way you backed up your blanket statements leaves us with no other option than to fully agree with this jewel of wisdom.

 

[PSI Nexus]

Thank you for this amazing contribution. The way you backed up your blanket statements leaves us with no other option than to fully agree with this jewel of wisdom.

Thank you for contributing as well. No irony or hypocrisy there.

 

[Luxord]

What?

assuming he meant definitely *not* -2

Ness is definitely underrated, fair is annoying as hell and if a Ness wants to, they won't get grabbed (that much). And even though his grab is as pathetic as Lucario's once he gets it, it can be bad =(

 

[Lukingordex]

Lucas vs MK is only -2.
Not -3.

 

[PSI Nexus]

What?

They don't have too much trouble with Nado as Ness can Fair it and Lucas can PK Fire it. But neither of them can really approach Metaknight very well. Lucas' Fair and Nair can be punished by Metaknight blocking/spotdodging it and then Nairing or F-Tilting. Ness' Fair isn't as useful here as it is in other match-ups because of MK's infinite priority and better range. MK's F-Tilt and Fair outrages pretty much all they have.

Both Ness and Lucas will need to try to stay on stage no matter what. They'll get wrecked off stage, especially Ness. Metaknight can possibly get early kills without too much worry. Up B's from Metaknight can be a problem. This is even worse when MK grab releases them until they are forced off stage. When MK's off stage, PK Thunder and Lucas' PK Fire can be useful - which can also work if Metaknight tries planking.

Both Ness and Lucas will have to be very patient for kills, especially Lucas who can kill with F-Tilt, Fair, and Up-Air - but each of them at 130% or higher. Ness can kill Metaknight with B-Throw, Up-Air, and Back Air, but they'll be fairly difficult to land. Ness can get grabs if Metaknight spaces badly. But Lucas will have a hard time punishing Metaknight's moves, except with maybe F-Tilt or Jab.

It's not a good match-up for either or . -2 vs. .

 

[Lukingordex]

They don't have too much trouble with Nado as Ness can Fair it and Lucas can PK Fire it. But neither of them can really approach Metaknight very well. Lucas' Fair and Nair can be punished by Metaknight blocking/spotdodging it and then Nairing or F-Tilting. Ness' Fair isn't as useful here as it is in other match-ups because of MK's infinite priority and better range. MK's F-Tilt and Fair outrages pretty much all they have.

Both Ness and Lucas will need to try to stay on stage no matter what. They'll get wrecked off stage, especially Ness. Metaknight can possibly get early kills without too much worry. Up B's from Metaknight can be a problem. This is even worse when MK grab releases them until they are force of stage. When MK's off stage, PK Thunder and Lucas' PK Fire can be useful - which can also work if Metaknight tries planking.

Both Ness and Lucas will have to be very patient for kills, especially Lucas who can kill with F-Tilt, Fair, and Up-Air - but each of them at 130% and higher. Ness can kill Metaknight with B-Throw, Up-Air, and Back Air, but they'll be pretty hard to land. Ness can get grabs if Metaknight spaces badly. But Lucas has have a hard time punishing Metaknight's moves, except with maybe F-Tilt or Jab.

It's not a good match-up for either or .

Great evaluation,This MU is a little better for Ness than it is for Lucas,but both is -2.
At least Ness will have much more problem to recover than Lucas.

 

[Espy Rose]

You know it's not like that. If you wanna troll me, try harder.

Actually, he's just one pin short of a strike on that one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Too many characters "go even" with MK now.

~MK's MUs imo~

Even/Advantage: Nobody
-1.0: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake, Pikachu, Fox
-1.5: Falco, Marth
-2.0: Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf, Ness
-2.5: Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Yoshi, Lucas
-3.0: Lucario (?), Toon Link, Peach, Pit, ROB, Kirby, Sonic, Ike (?), Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Jigglypuff
-3.5: King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
-4.0: Zelda, Ganondorf

Note that I don't consider -3 to be "close to unwinnable" like most people do.

 

[DRN]

Too many characters "go even" with MK now.

~MK's MUs imo~

Even/Advantage: Nobody
-1.0: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake, Pikachu, Fox
-1.5: Falco, Marth
-2.0: Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf, Ness
-2.5: Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Yoshi, Lucas
-3.0: Lucario (?), Toon Link, Peach, Pit, ROB, Kirby, Sonic, Ike (?), Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Jigglypuff
-3.5: King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
-4.0: Zelda, Ganondorf

Note that I don't consider -3 to be "close to unwinnable" like most people do.

goes even with metaknight imo. She is a lot closer then ppl think.

 

[Lukingordex]

Too many characters "go even" with MK now.

~MK's MUs imo~

Even/Advantage: Nobody
-1.0: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake, Pikachu, Fox
-1.5: Falco, Marth
-2.0: Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf, Ness
-2.5: Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Yoshi, Lucas
-3.0: Lucario (?), Toon Link, Peach, Pit, ROB, Kirby, Sonic, Ike (?), Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Jigglypuff
-3.5: King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
-4.0: Zelda, Ganondorf

Note that I don't consider -3 to be "close to unwinnable" like most people do.

Wario shoud not be in the 1.5?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@DRN
And I would say she is a lot further away than people think, I made a massive post about this once.

She is punished hard: She gets juggled easily by nado/uair and isn't that difficult for MK to edge-guard. Her ground-game is easily shut down by MK's superior ftilt, dtilt and shuttle loop because she has no grab and they are just good moves in general. Her apparent strong juggling game on MK with uair doesn't actually exist as long as he isn't too aggressive.

I'll elaborate when I get home tonight, hopefully the subject won't change cause I like discussing this MU.

@Lukinhass
Where should he be?

 

[ぱみゅ]

imo, it all depends on the stagelist.
The shorter, the closer some matchups are.

 

[Tesh]

@DRN
And I would say she is a lot further away than people think, I made a massive post about this once.

She is punished hard: She gets juggled easily by nado/uair and isn't that difficult for MK to edge-guard. Her ground-game is easily shut down by MK's superior ftilt, dtilt and shuttle loop because she has no grab and they are just good moves in general. Her apparent strong juggling game on MK with uair doesn't actually exist as long as he isn't too aggressive.

I'll elaborate when I get home tonight, hopefully the subject won't change cause I like discussing this MU.

@Lukinhass
Where should he be?

She isn't really that easily juggled by nado or uair. She has a pretty decent airspeed and her flipkick can her out of alot of situations in a juggle.

 

[Player-1]

Turtl it's your turn

 

[DRN]

@DRN
And I would say she is a lot further away than people think, I made a massive post about this once.

She is punished hard: She gets juggled easily by nado/uair and isn't that difficult for MK to edge-guard. Her ground-game is easily shut down by MK's superior ftilt, dtilt and shuttle loop because she has no grab and they are just good moves in general. Her apparent strong juggling game on MK with uair doesn't actually exist as long as he isn't too aggressive.

I'll elaborate when I get home tonight, hopefully the subject won't change cause I like discussing this MU.

@Lukinhass
Where should he be?

Can u link me to your post? I cant go into too much detail on my phone atm but what you've written here is pretty incorrect. Zss does not get juggled or edge guarded easily at all. She has so many mix ups in her recovery i dont understand how he can edge guard her unless the zss player recovers the exact same way every time. Zss actually shuts down a majority of metaknights approaches. Her grab is not bad... it outranges and we get some pretty decent damage out of release. The only safe way ive seen mk approach is hip level tornado but zss can down b kick it if metaknight tries to follow her movement.

This is coming from a decent zss player who has played mk players better then myself. Some metaknights ive played in the last year are M2k(1-2), Tyrant(1-2), Dojo(2-0), Zero(1-2), and seibrik(0-2). I've lost to pretty much all but its only because they are clearly better players then myself and most others.

I'll do a real write up as soon as i get more time

 

[Cassio]

But neither of them can really approach Metaknight very well.

Ness doesnt have to. He has one of the best projectiles in the game at chasing a campy MK.

Ness' Fair isn't as useful here as it is in other match-ups because of MK's infinite priority and better range. MK's F-Tilt and Fair outrages pretty much all they have.

Fair appears to be amazing in the MU. When MKs in the air the angle seems to beat out all of MKs aerials, except for perhaps a side to side confrontation with fair. It also helps prevent him from turning into combo video material (along with his psi magnet and floatiness). I dont really see FOW challenge ftilt so Id assume it doesnt beat it.

Both Ness and Lucas will need to try to stay on stage no matter what. They'll get wrecked off stage, especially Ness. Metaknight can possibly get early kills without too much worry. Up B's from Metaknight can be a problem. This is even worse when MK grab releases them until they are forced off stage. When MK's off stage, PK Thunder and Lucas' PK Fire can be useful - which can also work if Metaknight tries planking.

This is where I think most people get it wrong. Im not saying that MK cant or wont give ness trouble offstage, but Ness seems to do way better than even some of the casts better members at recovering vs MK and I think its very specific to the MU. MKs poor aerial mobility prevents him from challenging Ness' fair offstage, and Ness' floatiness allows him to hang offstage and space against MKs attempts to gimp him. Of course ness still has to make it back onstage so MK can just wait for that, but he has some pretty good options along with his great second jump that turn it into a guessing game. Ness is more likely to end up offstage again than be outright gimped.

Ness can kill Metaknight with B-Throw, Up-Air, and Back Air, but they'll be fairly difficult to land. Ness can get grabs if Metaknight spaces badly.

Given that MK has issues gimping and comboing ness as mentioned, he has to be extremely patient about kills. Wouldnt say its hard for him to get kills, but its certainly not easy.

I havent seen Lucas' play MK enough to comment.

 

[infiniteV115]

Flipkick goes right through nado cause it's transcendent and lasts for over 60 frames, and alongside her amazing ground speed and good air speed, she has way less trouble against nado than almost every other character.

I hate when people act like ZSS is never going to land a grab just because it comes out slowly and is punishable if missed. It's as if they completely forget that her dsmash and neutralB exist.

Not to mention that she's guaranteed an uair, fair (hard though), usmash, dash attack and regrab out of air release on MK.
And considering that practically after about 15%, dash attack-->utilt is guaranteed (until after DAL percents) and DA-->utilt does 18% when fresh...and then she can also DAL him out of air release, it doesn't really matter if she doesn't get many grabs in because each one will lead to a lot of damage and/or good positioning against MK (ie he's put above her) which will probably lead to at least 1 uair.

 

[Cassio]

On the subject of ZSS, a relatively new ZSS beat Zex this past weekend, who rarely loses to anyone in his region. I dont really know enough about ZSS but Im not sure I believe she gets wrecked either.

 

[BSP]

Too many characters "go even" with MK now.

~MK's MUs imo~

Even/Advantage: Nobody
-1.0: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake, Pikachu, Fox
-1.5: Falco, Marth
-2.0: Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf, Ness
-2.5: Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Yoshi, Lucas
-3.0: Lucario (?), Toon Link, Peach, Pit, ROB, Kirby, Sonic, Ike (?), Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Jigglypuff
-3.5: King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
-4.0: Zelda, Ganondorf

Note that I don't consider -3 to be "close to unwinnable" like most people do.

LOL @ putting on the same MU as and . I wish lol.

Sonic is no worse than -2 vs. MK

 

[PSI Nexus]

Ness doesnt have to. He has one of the best projectiles in the game at chasing a campy MK.

Fair appears to be amazing in the MU. When MKs in the air the angle seems to beat out all of MKs aerials, except for perhaps a side to side confrontation with fair. It also helps prevent him from turning into combo video material (along with his psi magnet and floatiness). I dont really see FOW challenge ftilt so Id assume it doesnt beat it.

This is where I think most people get it wrong. Im not saying that MK cant or wont give ness trouble offstage, but Ness seems to do way better than even some of the casts better members at recovering vs MK and I think its very specific to the MU. MKs poor aerial mobility prevents him from challenging Ness' fair offstage, and Ness' floatiness allows him to hang offstage and space against MKs attempts to gimp him. Of course ness still has to make it back onstage so MK can just wait for that, but he has some pretty good options along with his great second jump that turn it into a guessing game. Ness is more likely to end up offstage again than be outright gimped.

Given that MK has issues gimping and comboing ness as mentioned, he has to be extremely patient about kills. Wouldnt say its hard for him to get kills, but its certainly not easy.

It kinda bothers me that MK's don't abuse F-Tilt as much as it seems they could. And yeah, both of them can stall in the air with Magnet.

Uh, compared to the other characters, I think MK would give Ness and Lucas more trouble when they're offstage. Not that I necessarily think that MK can easily gimp them, I do think that he can give them pressure without really worrying about being gimped or hit hard himself (unless he gets hit by Ness' Down Air).

So do you think it's a -1 for Ness, Cassio?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

On the subject of ZSS, a relatively new ZSS beat Zex this past weekend, who rarely loses to anyone in his region. I dont really know enough about ZSS but Im not sure I believe she gets wrecked either.

I think the reason guys lowball ZSS matchups and kind of always have is they don't remember how much damage ZSS is capable of putting out very very quickly. She hits really hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60lVYrRne_o&feature=related

Every time I watch this video I'm always really surpised at the first kill. Like in most match-ups, ZSS really only needs a couple really good reads to have you at kill percent.

 

[Lukingordex]

@Lukinhass
Where should he be?

Wario vs MK is a -1/-2 for Wario, not?

 

[M@v]

Moreso a -1, but it can be really hard for mk actually if he doesn't have much mu experience. I know this applies to almost all matchups, but it can noticeably affect this mu more.

 

[BSP]

I asked Jnig if he thought it was minus 2 and he said nope

 

[Lukingordex]

Moreso a -1, but it can be really hard for mk actually if he doesn't have much mu experience. I know this applies to almost all matchups, but it can noticeably affect this mu more.

Im almost all of the Wario´s MUs,is better for him to use his aerial game a lot.

But when he faces MK,looks like his ground game is a better choice. lol

I´ve only heard this,I do not have much experience on Wario,correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Cause intense controversy. Success~!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'm writing all this from the perspective of someone who has regularly played the match-up for years, don't let the Jigglypuff next to my name fool you.

She isn't really that easily juggled by nado or uair. She has a pretty decent airspeed and her flipkick can her out of alot of situations in a juggle.

Flipkick is her only air option, so it is easy to just always be ready for it and punish the lag.

Air speed is nice, but she still gets juggled.

I'm not saying it is anywhere near as bad as say... Bowser, but it is definitely apparent.

Can u link me to your post? I cant go into too much detail on my phone atm but what you've written here is pretty incorrect. Zss does not get juggled or edge guarded easily at all. She has so many mix ups in her recovery i dont understand how he can edge guard her unless the zss player recovers the exact same way every time. Zss actually shuts down a majority of metaknights approaches. Her grab is not bad... it outranges and we get some pretty decent damage out of release. The only safe way ive seen mk approach is hip level tornado but zss can down b kick it if metaknight tries to follow her movement.

I would love to link you to the post (I even analysed a match and explained why I thought the MK was playing the match-up wrong; I still think that top MKs rarely abuse his advantages in the MU) but I can't find it :/

She has a lot of recovery mix-ups that are all covered by the same thing. If MK just sits near the ledge, he can counter all of her recovery options pretty much (unless she is really high up). Flipkick loses to invincible aerials or just punishing it during the ending lag after dodging the hitbox if you know the timing. Her tether loses to a low shuttle loop from basically every angle. In the air you can just assault her because you are Meta Knight.

What does her grab "out-range"? Unless you manage to bait a forward tilt/forward smash/down smash (bait is they key word, it is too slow to do on reaction if MK spaces correctly), or land a down smash you aren't going to be grabbing a good MK. Her decently hard punishes on MK are really good, but that doesn't make an even match-up (go ask Yoshi mains).

Flipkick goes right through nado cause it's transcendent and lasts for over 60 frames, and alongside her amazing ground speed and good air speed, she has way less trouble against nado than almost every other character.

If you are under ZSS and you start a nado, she has to flipkick, right? It is her only option of escaping it. Then you just do a downward arc in the same direction as ZSS and catch her.

Ground speed doesn't matter, I'm only talking about aerial nado. Your other stuff I've already spoken about.

LOL @ putting on the same MU as and . I wish lol.

Sonic is no worse than -2 vs. MK

Is that your -2 or my -2 though? Cause I really doubt Sonic does as well in the match-up as Wario. I will ret-con my decision and put the MU as -2.5 though.

Wario vs MK is a -1/-2 for Wario, not?

Yeah... and I put it as -2.

You guys should ask DMG what he thinks of the match-up.

 

[C.J.]

DMG's outlook on the MU:
Did wario hit your shield? MK nairs it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see how it could be as good as those other match-ups, what does Wario have in the match-up other than "lol he is high tier, he must do okay against MK"?

He is horribly beaten in the only area of his game that is actually really good: the air.

 

[Laem]

Weight + difficult to kill come to mind (compare to marth who can kill him out of grab). Uair that kills at 80. I feel like hardhitting chars such as wario/snake/zss/others really ask for excellent precision and spacing by the MK or else he's just gonna get ****ed up. In this sense most MK's you'll encounter are very much beatable, and quite probably less dangerous than say an ICs player, in which case its you who has to play very precise / on point.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My view on Brawl at the moment is that MK's match-ups are more in his favour than people think, but that negative match-ups overall don't mean as much as people think (especially against MK, a match-up that everyone and their dog knows).