Official BBR Tier List v7

[Doc King]

Too many characters "go even" with MK now.

~MK's MUs imo~

Even/Advantage: Nobody
-1.0: Olimar, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers, Snake, Pikachu, Fox
-1.5: Falco, Marth
-2.0: Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Wolf, Ness
-2.5: Zero Suit Samus, Sheik, Yoshi, Lucas
-3.0: Lucario (?), Toon Link, Peach, Pit, ROB, Kirby, Sonic, Ike (?), Pokemon Trainer, Luigi, Mario, Samus, Jigglypuff
-3.5: King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link
-4.0: Zelda, Ganondorf

Note that I don't consider -3 to be "close to unwinnable" like most people do.

King Dedede is definitely not a -3.5. It's a -3.

MK might have a few evens like maybe Pikachu and Climbers.

Also Snake should be where Falco is and Marth should be -1.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I got 20% on the downhill close.

You're right. Weird that I'd mess up the test the same way on two different slopes lol

King Dedede is definitely not a -3.5. It's a -3.

MK might have a few evens like maybe Pikachu and Climbers.

Also Snake should be where Falco is and Marth should be -1.

In your opinion, sure.

That holds very little weight to me.

 

[Doc King]

Well it does suck but it's nowhere near really REALLY bad. I mean Dedede has a few decent things like nado punishes and can survive well.

Pika and Climbers might be even. I mean 9B can beat mk's with climbers.

Snake can get nado and recovery (Offstage wrecked pretty well. Marth on the other hand can air release mk to more better things and can tolerate mk a little more.

These are my opinions, if you disagree then provide reasons instead of just disagreeing with me just to disagree with me. It really makes your opinion more invalid when you can't provide reasons/proof.

Edit: Like I thought Lucas was low tier and then you provided me to watch mekos.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Shouldn't even be arguing about -3.5 seeing as -3.5 doesn't exist.

I feel like Espy.

 

[Doc King]

It really doesn't matter too much because either way Dedede really sucks against mk and that's really what matters.

I just feel like Dedede is nowhere close to as bad as some of the characters that were there.

Also this should be in the matchup thread.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think having 10 match-up ratios is perfect for Brawl, Aero.

Pika is just worse at doing everything MK can, but has a chain-grab. If we call that even, then MK should have a +1 advantage against himself.

Even vs. ICs is possible.

Snake gets ***** if he gets hit. I think his spacing game against MK is underrated though, he is one of the best characters at preventing MK's approach and at the same time he forces MK to approach. The Japanese Snakes and Ally's Snake demonstrate this very well imo. On top of that, he punishes pretty hard because he is Snake. I can see it being worse for Snake than I put it as, though.

Dedede sucks get over it lol. He will get timed out if the MK wants to. His recovery gets ****ed over. It is everything I said about the Jigglypuff MU but with MK, making it even worse. That is without even mentioning Nado. I think DDD loses worse than DK. At least DK has mobility, Giant Punch and a good recovery.

Marth doesn't have much to offer against MK aside from an overall good moveset. Like Diddy Kong controls space amazingly, Ice Climbers punish extremely hard, Fox feels like his entire moveset is designed to counter MK, etc... He counters some of MK's individual tactics and can punish hard sometimes, but I think if you compare him with Fox he is clearly worse at the MU.

 

[BSP]

The problem with Snake is, like you said, once he gets hit. Once he gets hit offstage, he's taking a LOT of % before he gets back in a neutral position vs. MK, if he gets back at all that is.

If only he could teleport back to the stage.

 

[Kuro~]

Pit is -2 to -1.5 depending on the stage vs mk.

 

[Tesh]

I believe it was moves do 100% damage in training mode and 105% fresh in VS mode. Most moves don't do damage in whole numbers, but in fractions so something that appears to do 10% in training mode but 11% in vs mode probably did 10.5 in training mode. Thats why sometimes you might see a move that does 19 damage appear to do 20 or 21 damage. Because the invisible fractions add up and then the game shows the result.

Assuming we have lgls, scrooging rules and a conservative stagelist, I think ICs/Olimar/Falco are MKs closest matchups and maybe even. If the rules solve their trouble in the air/offstage/on the ledge, they can really shine on stage and can actually do major damage to MK off of one punish (which is what MK usually does).

Without those rules, I really feel like Snake is the best vs MK. But, then again MK would beat everyone pretty solidly at this point so....

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that on-screen, the percentage numbers always round down, so, if your collective damage is 76.9%, it will show 76%.

 

[Tesh]

Do fractions of percents increase knockback? Like for example, could we say you can survive Snake's uptilt until 120.4, but at 120.5 you always die?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Do fractions of percents increase knockback? Like for example, could we say you can survive Snake's uptilt until 120.4, but at 120.5 you always die?

Damage dealt is the prime cause of knockback, so yes.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think having 10 match-up ratios is perfect for Brawl, Aero.

Pika is just worse at doing everything MK can, but has a chain-grab. If we call that even, then MK should have a +1 advantage against himself.

Even vs. ICs is possible.

Snake gets ***** if he gets hit. I think his spacing game against MK is underrated though, he is one of the best characters at preventing MK's approach and at the same time he forces MK to approach. The Japanese Snakes and Ally's Snake demonstrate this very well imo. On top of that, he punishes pretty hard because he is Snake. I can see it being worse for Snake than I put it as, though.

Dedede sucks get over it lol. He will get timed out if the MK wants to. His recovery gets ****ed over. It is everything I said about the Jigglypuff MU but with MK, making it even worse. That is without even mentioning Nado. I think DDD loses worse than DK. At least DK has mobility, Giant Punch and a good recovery.

Marth doesn't have much to offer against MK aside from an overall good moveset. Like Diddy Kong controls space amazingly, Ice Climbers punish extremely hard, Fox feels like his entire moveset is designed to counter MK, etc... He counters some of MK's individual tactics and can punish hard sometimes, but I think if you compare him with Fox he is clearly worse at the MU.

10 matchup ratios is too complicated and too deluded. If you're going to use ten matchup ratios then go back to using things like 50-50 instead of 0 to indicate even.

There needs to be a fine line drawn. +/- any number with a decimal using the current matchup scale is stupid. The current scales indicate degree of hardness. There is no in between of soft counter to regular counter to hard counter. Listen to yourself...In the middle of soft counter to regular counter is what? Kinda soft, but not really, but maybe counter?

You people really confuse me with your ways of thinking in the regard that they never make sense.

 

[-LzR-]

Stop overcomplicating the ratios people. It's not so difficult.

 

[Doc King]

I think having 10 match-up ratios is perfect for Brawl, Aero.

Pika is just worse at doing everything MK can, but has a chain-grab. If we call that even, then MK should have a +1 advantage against himself.

Even vs. ICs is possible.

Snake gets ***** if he gets hit. I think his spacing game against MK is underrated though, he is one of the best characters at preventing MK's approach and at the same time he forces MK to approach. The Japanese Snakes and Ally's Snake demonstrate this very well imo. On top of that, he punishes pretty hard because he is Snake. I can see it being worse for Snake than I put it as, though.

Dedede sucks get over it lol. He will get timed out if the MK wants to. His recovery gets ****ed over. It is everything I said about the Jigglypuff MU but with MK, making it even worse. That is without even mentioning Nado. I think DDD loses worse than DK. At least DK has mobility, Giant Punch and a good recovery.

Marth doesn't have much to offer against MK aside from an overall good moveset. Like Diddy Kong controls space amazingly, Ice Climbers punish extremely hard, Fox feels like his entire moveset is designed to counter MK, etc... He counters some of MK's individual tactics and can punish hard sometimes, but I think if you compare him with Fox he is clearly worse at the MU.

doesn't have a chaingrab while ika2: does. ika2: also has the thunder and quick attack cancels. They really don't compare too much. I just feel like ika2: has a good way to punish 's air speed and can chaingrab him like the climbers can without the infinite.

being a close matchup does seem possible. He does have one of the best keep away games (Which is why vs. should be +1 Snake favor).

doesn't suck. He goes +2 against and +3 against . can basically time out everyone if you really think about it. I think is about between Lucas and Peach when it come to fighting him. has numerous punishes against him, can survive well, can kill him well, and has good range. He does get wrecked by his recovery and does get poked mega easy. DK should be on the +3 side. Also DK has a **** recovery and his mobility isn't that better.

You don't know anything about the vs. matchup. absolutely wrecks her. I'm pretty sure will never get the lead against like how never gets the lead against . can kill at 80%, can outrange everything with a breeze, can edge guard her well, can put her offstage with D throw well, can trap her well, can stage control well, and can punish well. only has a hard to reach edge guarding game going for her. Mobility is useless if you can reach your opponent.

has a good air release on along with a good oos against 's tornado.

 

[z00ted]

One of the ugliest posts ever recorded above me.

 

[Espy Rose]

You can almost hear Seagull mournfully howling at the silver moon hanging overhead.

 

[Life]

who really cares about the number of the matchup?

Adjectives are far more useful. "Slight advantage", "hard counter", "sorta kinda evenish but maybe a little problematic", why worry about the exact number (besides the chart obviously)?

 

[John12346]

Most of the time, when I see posts loaded with character heads, this is what I see...:

With that said, I do agree that Dedede has some stuff on MK, like how he has the range to outspace MK's normal attacks, and ways to even punish them at times, for sure. But then... MK just presses B a lot(Sometimes forgoing it to go for a dashgrab which is piss annoying to react to) and it all goes to hell for Dedede.

All in all, Dedede might have some answers to some of MK's options, but MK... just doesn't have to use them...

 

[Doc King]

Mach really is a powerful move against Dedede. The shuttle loop is also a powerful move that just ruins his chances of getting back. Poking moves are pretty good against this fatso.

Many ppl arguably claim that he's King Dedede's worst matchup and it really seems like it. However, many characters who are kind of good like King Dedede like Peach and Luigi have the same problem. There's also Rob, Pit, Ike, Toon Link, Lucario, etc.

I really don't think mk really shuts him down compared to the other cast like Olimar, Climbers, Diddy, Falco, and Pikachu do very well against him. It's just that mk is really good.

I just can't get over how Grim can think that Puff against D3 is mk hard (Let alone being good or even being a close matchup).

People don't know why Dedede sucks. It's not about Dedede getting shut down by lightweights, it's Dedede getting shut down by top tiers with many options like Diddy Kong. And top tiers are probably more important than shutting down characters below you and one character in the top tier.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Quick-Attack Cancel makes Pika good against MK?
DK's mobility isn't that much better than Dedede's?
Tell me I don't know anything about the DDD/Puff match-up when I doubt you have ever played a Puff main in your life?

By the way, I never said that Puff/D3 is MK hard. NEVER. Re-read all my posts if you want. I believe the match-up is slightly in Dedede's favour (-1 at best, -2 at worst)

You need to stop dealing in absolutes and make more generalized posts when you don't actually know what you are talking about.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Tell me I don't know anything about the DDD/Puff match-up when I doubt you have ever played a Puff main in your life?

To be fair, the only Dedede 'user' you've probably ever played is Nova and Jamage.

Need I say more?

 

[stingers]

I like it when people use char heads, saves me time.

 

[Lukingordex]

who really cares about the number of the matchup?

Adjectives are far more useful. "Slight advantage", "hard counter", "sorta kinda evenish but maybe a little problematic", why worry about the exact number (besides the chart obviously)?

numbers is more easy to evaluate,seriously.

 

[ぱみゅ]

numbers is more easy to evaluate,seriously.

By reading the current topic, I don't think they are, just because everyone can see the same MU features, but they would still disagree with a concrete value.
I'm with InCom and the "advantage/disadvantage" thing.

 

[Seagull Joe]

one of the ugliest posts ever recorded above me.

you can almost hear seagull mournfully howling at the silver moon hanging overhead.

LOL.

/caps

 

[Zano]

Quick-Attack Cancel makes Pika good against MK?
DK's mobility isn't that much better than Dedede's?
Tell me I don't know anything about the DDD/Puff match-up when I doubt you have ever played a Puff main in your life?

By the way, I never said that Puff/D3 is MK hard. NEVER. Re-read all my posts if you want. I believe the match-up is slightly in Dedede's favour (-1 at best, -2 at worst)

You need to stop dealing in absolutes and make more generalized posts when you don't actually know what you are talking about.

iirc, you said you know nothing about the puff/d3 MU, and he just told you everything that makes it absolutely in D3's favor, and you STILL doubt him?

Also, there's no ****ing way it's only -1, it's -2 at best, not worst, and even then I doubt it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Aero: I never said I know the match-up for sure though, I was just giving my opinion on how it will play out and suggesting a ratio. He is flat out telling me I'm wrong with no experience to back him up.

Zano: K, I'll attempt to counter his well thought out argument that clearly shows D3 to wreck Puff.

You don't know anything about the vs. matchup. absolutely wrecks her. I'm pretty sure will never get the lead against like how never gets the lead against .

Dedede doesn't get the lead against Falco because he is huge, barely mobile and Falco has lasers.

How does this translate to the Puff/D3 match-up...?

can kill at 80%

Not without a charged Smash, bad DI or bad positioning. But yes, he KOs her early for sure

can outrange everything with a breeze

Bair and I believe fair both out-range up tilt. Ftilt does not cover the area that Puff approaches at. Fair is slow, utilt and dtilt can be SDI'd out of and are easy to miss against a high mobility character like Puff.

Your statement should actually be "can outrange everything with a bair"

can edge guard her well

MK is the only character who can edge-guard Puff properly. I don't see how Dedede can, I'd like some elaboration. If it is something stupid like "fast-fall bair wall" I'm going to be upset, as she has 6 jumps, infinite pounds and amazing aerial mobility to avoid that.

can put her offstage with D throw well

Yeah, putting Puff off-stage really takes her out of her element.

can trap her well, can stage control well

Elaborate.

and can punish well

Yeah.

I wish people who think Jigglypuff is some absolutely impossible to use character because they tried her once and kept getting punished for doing ******** deep fairs as their only approach, spamming rollout and trying to combo into Rest would just stay out of discussions about her lol

 

[Lukingordex]

I wish people who think Jigglypuff is some absolutely impossible to use character because they tried her once and kept getting punished for doing ******** deep fairs as their only approach, spamming rollout and trying to combo into Rest would just stay out of discussions about her lol

Jiggly is the best bottom,no doubt.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Are you trying to challenge 's Utilt with Fair/Bair? LOOOL.

 

[Doc King]

Aero: I never said I know the match-up for sure though, I was just giving my opinion on how it will play out and suggesting a ratio. He is flat out telling me I'm wrong with no experience to back him up.

Zano: K, I'll attempt to counter his well thought out argument that clearly shows D3 to wreck Puff.



Dedede doesn't get the lead against Falco because he is huge, barely mobile and Falco has lasers.

How does this translate to the Puff/D3 match-up...?



Not without a charged Smash, bad DI or bad positioning. But yes, he KOs her early for sure



Bair and I believe fair both out-range up tilt. Ftilt does not cover the area that Puff approaches at. Fair is slow, utilt and dtilt can be SDI'd out of and are easy to miss against a high mobility character like Puff.

Your statement should actually be "can outrange everything with a bair"



MK is the only character who can edge-guard Puff properly. I don't see how Dedede can, I'd like some elaboration. If it is something stupid like "fast-fall bair wall" I'm going to be upset, as she has 6 jumps, infinite pounds and amazing aerial mobility to avoid that.



Yeah, putting Puff off-stage really takes her out of her element.



Elaborate.



Yeah.

I wish people who think Jigglypuff is some absolutely impossible to use character because they tried her once and kept getting punished for doing ******** deep fairs as their only approach, spamming rollout and trying to combo into Rest would just stay out of discussions about her lol

I said Dedede can't approach Falco well. I was comparing it as a reflection to the Puff matchup (But probably not as much painfulness).

I'm pretty sure that plenty of moves can kill early.

Bair does outrange puff well and it's a really important factor.

I would like to mention something that King Dedede's Down Throw move is actually not DIable for Jigglypuff. In this case, King Dedede can actually control where puff goes with it. It can send her really far offstage thanks to her weight and can perform these stage specific traps. Sadly it can be air dodged, but it has to be near frame perfection and it cannot be buffered.

Like he can like down throw Jigglypuff into a waddle doo and combo off of there.

Matchup overall is really easy, just Bair for combos and outrangement, kill really early, pull off a bunch of quick moves, and occasionally trapping Puff.

I's pretty sure Jigglypuff has much easier good (Top and High tier) character matchups like Diddy Kong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Are you trying to challenge 's Utilt with Fair/Bair? LOOOL.

You can bair Dedede out of utilt, get yo' fax straight before mocking

LOOOL.

 

[Doc King]

Dedede can bair anything out of Jigglypuff. lol!

 

[infiniteV115]

Dedede is just a worse version of Jigglypuff anyway.

 

[Doc King]

Yeah a character who beats Wario solidly and hard counters wolf is definitely a worse version of Jigglypuff.

Dedede has so many haters lol.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Jigglypuff easily beats D3, Sing is so op, her moveset can kill him so early too. D3 sucks

 

[Chuee]

Yeah a character who beats Wario solidly and hard counters wolf is definitely a worse version of Jigglypuff.

Dedede has so many haters lol.

You really can't detect sarcasm, can you.....

 

[Lukingordex]

Jigglypuff is too good.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Ban Jigglypuff, rollout does far too much knockback.

 

[infiniteV115]

It wasn't really sarcasm, more like me coming here and seeing discussion about both Dedede and Jiggs and deciding to say something stupid