Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

There's a smashboards IRC channel?!?

Yeah, there's been one for a while, I think. There are IRCs for everything these days. P:M also has its own IRC chat.

No, she doesn't have the results for that.

Salem is an outlier.

People only lost to him because they didn't know the MU.
















(Am I doing it right?)

Indeed.

Edit: Where have my troll icons gone?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Gone for the best, I think.
Many people used them wrong... Just like every Internet reference or meme...

 

[FredFuchs]

No, she doesn't have the results for that.

Salem is an outlier.

People only lost to him because they didn't know the MU.
















(Am I doing it right?)

that may be true to an extent, but people like Mr. R and Dojo knew what they were doing, yet they still lost

 

[elrelster]

I think a distinction oughta be made for knowing the theory of a MU and actually knowing, in practice, the physical demonstration of the MU. I'm sure people came there knowing the theory behind the MU against ZSS. They just didn't know the ins and outs of the MU when it came to the physical fight. If that helps at all.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure you guys are proof that Shiny Mewtwo is indeed doing it right.









Good night, gents.

 

[FredFuchs]

I'm pretty sure you guys are proof that Shiny Mewtwo is indeed doing it right.









Good night, gents.

oh, i see. it's kinda hard to detect sarcasm through forum posts

 

[elrelster]

I can't argue with that. From what I've said, either way, Shiny Mewtwo is right. And good night, bubbaking.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Nope/
Hypocrisy isn't the failure to abide by one's words.
A person who advocates against smoking but still smokes isn't a hypocrite because he fails to stop smoking, he only becomes a hypocrite when he does not believe the words he speaks.


...
*rushes off to look*

Interesting.

Not something I thought about in this kind of way.

 

[Flayl]

That's a definition noone ever uses because you can't tell when a person stops believing in something

 

[ShadowLink84]

That's a definition noone ever uses because you can't tell when a person stops believing in something

Its the definition no one ever uses because its the actual definition of the word.
It is in regards to standards an individual simply does not believe in, or behaves in a way that they are not. Essentially its the same thing.
People toss the word hypocrisy when it should be called a contradiction.

 

[Espy Rose]

that may be true to an extent, but people like Mr. R and Dojo knew what they were doing, yet they still lost

Dojo doesn't know the ZSS match up.

 

[infiniteV115]

They definitely played a MU a lot better than everyone else that day.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I thought Dojo knew the MU but was just kinda bad at it.

Also, most of Salem's opponents had varying degrees of experience, but not only is Salem's playstyle ridiculous and unique, he's also far and away the best ZSS atm. I've pointed this out before, but if someone lost to DEHF no one would be comparing their Falco experience to DEHF-level experience and claiming they didn't have any, lol. Confirmation bias OP.

 

[Tesh]

^pretty much this, aside from people stupidly assuming that Dojo has lots of ZSS experience despite all of the ZSS in TX AND Dojo all quitting/going inactive for a long while, there is no ZSS in the country that could have properly prepared people to fight Salem because no one plays like him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

^pretty much this, aside from people stupidly assuming that Dojo has lots of ZSS experience despite all of the ZSS in TX AND Dojo all quitting/going inactive for a long while, there is no ZSS in the country that could have properly prepared people to fight Salem because no one plays like him.

Right. Salem plays in basically an ideal fashion. He uses everything. NickRiddle, Dazwa, and Snakeee are/were all great players and I'm not saying they aren't/weren't, but Salem is, objectively, on a completely different level. The best player of a good character can do things other players of the same character can't, and until Salem's ZSS won Apex, no one completely disregarded past character experience in the manner I'm seeing now.

You can have all the Snake experience you want and still lose to Ally's Snake. You can have all the Falco experience you want and still lose to DEHF. You can have all the Diddy experience in the world and still lose to ADHD. And you can have ZSS experience as Mr. R, Otori, M2K, Kain, and Mikeneko did have and still lose to Salem because he's an incredible player that can do awesome things with the character.

Quiksilver, Nickriddle, Dakpo, V115, and Kamemushi are all good ZSS players and all of the players above had played (and in many cases, beaten!) these guys before Apex, and still lost.

Hell, Mr. R has beaten Salem, Quik, and V in tournament and seconds ZSS himself. Salem at Apex 2013 is AFAIK his first ZSS loss.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ramin was playing really well game 2, and then he somehow got full jab combo'd--> dsmashed --> spiked offstage, even though if ZSS jab2s Marth he gets a free upB on her XD

 

[FredFuchs]

Dojo doesn't know the ZSS match up.

I thought dojo knew the zss mu since he was one of the only players Salem did not 2-0 if my memory serves me correctly

 

[Espy Rose]

You can win without having any character knowledge.
It's not going to happen often, if ever, but it's possible. Him beating Salem decently in one game, then flopping into some of the basic "vs. Zero Suit 101" nonsense for the rest of the set kinda speaks for his MU knowledge.

 

[bubbaking]

Would just like to point out that M2K trains with Salem regularly, so it's quite inaccurate to say that he was inexperienced or new in the MU.

#TrueFacts

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah he just played it stupidly under pressure

Dojo was doing the right thing half the time, he got out-played though and changed up his strategy too much when a few small mistakes cost him big time

The number of times people got hit by charged dsmash from salem is definitely appalling tho

 

[Espy Rose]

Would just like to point out that M2K trains with Salem regularly, so it's quite inaccurate to say that he was inexperienced or new in the MU.

#TrueFacts

Salem himself has claimed that despite that, M2K doesn't know the match up.

 

[Shaya]

M2K doesn't actually know any match up other than the ditto, Marth and Snake (according to him). He's gotten better against others over time, but he's never really been super on point in any other mu.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He was REALLY good vs. Diddy for a small period. Very notorious for timing the MU out

 

[Spelt]

Timing a character out =/= knowing the matchup

 

[Tesh]

timing out was the metaknight alternative to learning the matchup, you learn enough to get the lead and then you run away

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Timing a character out =/= knowing the matchup

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Timing a character out =/= knowing the matchup

Unless it's the ICs MU

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Would I be wrong in saying that generally speaking, if MK is able to time out a viable character, that the player of said character lacks match-up experience or isn't good at adapting?

It's possible vs a few characters (ICs as an example) but generally speaking, Smash rule sets have regulated MK's ability to time out pretty severely. It's kind of hard for him to stay completely safe without breaking a rule or two. Without planking/scrooging regulations it would be pretty easy to do, but the regulations exist, so...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If MK was playing optimally defensive against a viable character (like Diddy) that is also playing optimally defensive; MK would win via time out

Of course in practice the viable character makes mistakes which an intelligent MK will punish with aggression, or the MK camps poorly.

All imo. With that said, no, MK can't really "go for time outs" with the rules in place - he can just play super defensive

 

[~ Gheb ~]

M2K doesn't actually know any match up other than the ditto, Marth and Snake (according to him). He's gotten better against others over time, but he's never really been super on point in any other mu.

His perception of these things is a bit weird though. He claims to know the Snake MU but he's lost all three recent encounters against Ally's Snake whereas he's often considered bad against Olimar but hasn't lost to one in a long time but beaten all relevant Olimar's last year except Brood [whom he didn't play]. Maybe I'm focusing too much on the results here but I find it hard to believe that M2K is only knows those three matchups.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The thing about M2k is that he likes to use pure tech skill and over-aggro players/go for gimps/frame traps more-so then actually learn matchups. He is able to punish players fundamental strategies or shut a character down via certain camping/playing frame perfect rather then actually play a matchup currectly. Anti both learns matchups and punishes people's playstyles. M2k's robotic ability to punish in every way possible/lame it out helps him to succeed in tournament and go farther then Anti in most settings. Anti is a much more terrifying person to play if you use for example because he knows the matchup. M2k does not, but he punishes 's via being over-aggro or never letting land/gimp him. This is my understanding based on playing both players (And I've played M2k multiple times).

I do however believe M2k knows more matchups then he leads people on to believe. His struggles against , , and in the past has changed overtime. He used to consistently lose to Adhd, Dabuz, and lost to a few 's. He only lost to Adhd once last year. He lost to Masha and Dehf 2x last year, but he stepped it up at Apex. He also beat Dabuz during their last encounter even though Dabuz has usually come out on top. M2k 3 stocked him game 2 of their set if I recall correctly.

M2k knows more high level character matchups then low level, but this is generally true for most top level players. Oddities like , , , , and can be lamed out significantly easier then HT characters because of lack of better options, which is why M2k does not usually try to learn them. He just will get beaten up game 1, but still win barely (Or barely lose) and then download an opponent the rest of the set. In that regard, Zero and M2k play identical.

;tldr version: M2k would rather over-aggro or lame people out then learn matchups, but that doesn't negate the fact that he knows a bunch of matchups.

 

[bubbaking]

People gotta stop trying to say that ZSS won an international because everyone didn't know the MU. Falco won a national and I'd say that ZSS' chances of winning are actually greater than Falco's because she doesn't have any MUs that shut her down a la Pika:Falco.

Also, MK can very easily time a whole crapload of characters out using the same planking + defensive on-stage play against each one without actually learning any of the individual MUs past a couple personal notes. It's on the other character to figure out how to beat MK.

HT characters (Lucario, DDD, TL, and arguably the BL tier) will never win a national, most probably. It makes sense to at least raise ZSS into Top Tier, going by this. It also makes sense to drop Wario into High Tier, going by this and his pretty appalling placings at Apex on top of, like, everything notable. If a Wario (or a DDD) places high, you can bet your money that the player was using another good character half the time, which isn't the same as switching off of Falco for one terribad MU (unless that MU is MK ). Now that I've finally cleared up the difference between TT (ability to win a national) and HT (inability to win a national), I think it would make sense to just merge BL with HT, turning the the current HT into the higher tier of the new HT and BL Tier into the lower tier of the new HT. To be perfectly honest, TL is not that much better, if even better at all, than the spacees, Peach, and G&W.

/Opinions

 

[Espy Rose]

ZSS won an international because Salem didn't play people who knew the match up, nor did he play characters that would've shut him down.

 

[ぱみゅ]

tbh, was there a Pikachu at DEHF's level when he won his national? I don't think so.

 

[bubbaking]

You know, in such a stacked bracket, against so many top players, I couldn't honestly care less about that type of reasoning because it really doesn't make too much sense, nor does it have much worth from a statistical standpoint. ZSS has no MUs worse than -1, so if you were waiting for Salem to run into characters that "shut her down", you would have been waiting a long time.

The fact that Salem came up against, arguably, the BEST Brawl player in the world in the GFs was honestly good enough for me, but every single other bracket match was just icing on the cake. These tourneys are double-elimination, folks! You have two chances to get up there and take your prize. For your claim to have worth, you'd have to say that all of those top players were actually bad (i.e. unable to ADAPT like a top player should be able to) and that each of them actually got two bad brackets. In a tourney of that size and caliber, good luck proving that.

Edit: Kyokoro, did you read my post? I said that ZSS has a greater chance of winning a national than Falco because she doesn't have any really bad MUs like Falco does. If you're talking about my statement that good characters don't require heavy usage of alternates, I addressed that too. Switching off of Falco once or twice for a single bad MU does not negate Falco's Top Tier excellence.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS won an international because Salem didn't play people who knew the match up, nor did he play characters that would've shut him down.

Espy I usually like your posts and think you're a pretty smart guy, but this is a really dumb thing to say :/

 

[fkacyan]

@bubbaking, she does but you're really not liable to see a lot of her bad MUs at higher levels. There was only one Falco at Apex, a.nd nobody good plays Shiek.

@SFP: Espy's a moron but he's actually on target with that one. If Salem had played Shadow in bracket I doubt he'd have won that set.

Random note: Salem is the only top ZSS without a more talented brother.

 

[swordgard]

Espy I usually like your posts and think you're a pretty smart guy, but this is a really dumb thing to say :/

Because ad hominem really helps your case ; ).

 

[bubbaking]

The "standard stagelist" was set by the United Ruleset Comitee, just to get that standard cropped even more when APEX happened.

"Unity".

Their stagelist is so damn bland... Even the tourney rules in general are bland. Single elimination 1 character only matches? No thanks.

On the contrary, I have MAD respect for the potential rigor of their tourney set-ups. Single elimination forces one to be on his A-game all the time. Besides, it's really fine when you remember that their tourneys have no entry fees or rewards other than good ol' Asian honor and prestige.

Hell, they only allow 1 map for SSB64

Uhhh, and what's wrong with this? DL64 is honestly the ONLY stage in SSB 64 that isn't heavy CP material. The USA stage list is really a compromise to bring more variety, but it also induces more Brawl-like camping and defensive play.

Nope/
Hypocrisy isn't the failure to abide by one's words.
A person who advocates against smoking but still smokes isn't a hypocrite because he fails to stop smoking, he only becomes a hypocrite when he does not believe the words he speaks.

That just makes you a hypocrite in action but not one in faith.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

@SFP: Espy's a moron but he's actually on target with that one. If Salem had played Shadow in bracket I doubt he'd have won that set.

Because ad hominem really helps your case ; ).

I already replied to his point but no one has really responded to it.

I thought Dojo knew the MU but was just kinda bad at it.

Also, most of Salem's opponents had varying degrees of experience, but not only is Salem's playstyle ridiculous and unique, he's also far and away the best ZSS atm. I've pointed this out before, but if someone lost to DEHF no one would be comparing their Falco experience to DEHF-level experience and claiming they didn't have any, lol. Confirmation bias OP.

Right. Salem plays in basically an ideal fashion. He uses everything. NickRiddle, Dazwa, and Snakeee are/were all great players and I'm not saying they aren't/weren't, but Salem is, objectively, on a completely different level. The best player of a good character can do things other players of the same character can't, and until Salem's ZSS won Apex, no one completely disregarded past character experience in the manner I'm seeing now.

You can have all the Snake experience you want and still lose to Ally's Snake. You can have all the Falco experience you want and still lose to DEHF. You can have all the Diddy experience in the world and still lose to ADHD. And you can have ZSS experience as Mr. R, Otori, M2K, Kain, and Mikeneko did have and still lose to Salem because he's an incredible player that can do awesome things with the character.

Quiksilver, Nickriddle, Dakpo, V115, and Kamemushi are all good ZSS players and all of the players above had played (and in many cases, beaten!) these guys before Apex, and still lost.

Hell, Mr. R has beaten Salem, Quik, and V in tournament and seconds ZSS himself. Salem at Apex 2013 is AFAIK his first ZSS loss.

You can say you doubt Salem could have beaten anyone you want, but those matches didn't happen and Salem overcame several players many people expected him to lose to, including Mr. R and Mew2King. Everyone thought Mew2King would beat him.

If you want to talk about llogical debate fallacies, how about Strawmen like "salem couldn't have beaten <insert player here>?" How about outright false statements like "Salem had an easy bracket?"