Official BBR Tier List v7

[Espy Rose]

Apparently sarcasm is lost on the ears of this thread's followers.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, that was sarcasm? My bad. As FredFuchs said:

it's kinda hard to detect sarcasm through forum posts

I'm especially bad at it.

@bubbaking, she does but you're really not liable to see a lot of her bad MUs at higher levels. There was only one Falco at Apex, a.nd nobody good plays Shiek.

Sheik is a bad MU for ZSS? Also, are you saying that those MUs are worse than -1's? Anything better than a -2 is NOT that bad of a MU. Also, you are 100% wrong about there being only one Falco at Apex. DEHF, Xzax, Pelca, Keitaro, M@v, and Bleachigo were all in the post-pools bracket, all of them, with the possible exception of Bleachigo, being high/top-level Falcos (I'd even go so far as to say that DEHF, Xzax, and Keitaro are among the best Falcos in the USA), and this isn't even including all the Falcos that were probably in pools.

@SFP: Espy's a moron but he's actually on target with that one. If Salem had played Shadow in bracket I doubt he'd have won that set.

Didn't Shadow get beaten by DarkFlame in pools, that less-than-stellar (but definitely pretty decent) ICs player? Excuse my Inui Logic, but I kinda doubt that Salem would have been taken out by Shadow, or at least, the chances of that happening wouldn't have been any greater than the chance of him losing a set to any one of the plethora of top players that he did face (and Shadow arguably isn't a top player in my book).

 

[fkacyan]

Salem has never done as well and has yet to do as well as he did at Apex, so statistically speaking, he's not as good as you say he is either. #facts

 

[bubbaking]

Ummm, "statistically speaking" APEX 2013 was the single most important entry of data in all of Brawl's history.







Ever.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lol@Sheik being a bad match-up for ZSS.

Thio you kill me. Go back to your bridge.

 

[bubbaking]

Not only that, "statistically speaking", APEX 2013 allowed Salem to repeatedly 'run the experiment' with sets against some of the best players in the world in a bracket that quite literally had no bad players, each set, itself, being a continually repeated run of 'experiments' known as games. If you're going to try to argue statistics, APEX 2013 was all Salem needed to prove he's one of the best players Brawl has ever known right now.

As for ZSS being Top Tier, well there's APEX 2013, and then there's all those other tournaments I've been repeatedly citing, dating back to 2010 and covering the time spectrum up 'till NOW.

Edit: It actually didn't occur to me that Thio might be trolling.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Thio does his job well.

 

[-LzR-]

Why are people trying so hard to find excuses for Salems performance at Apex? Isn't it amazing to have such a huge surprise, there is no need to find some weirdass excuses, Salem is just good. MU inexperience shouldn't even be considered at top level of play.

 

[Dekillsage]

It wouldn't if people knew match ups.

 

[infiniteV115]

Why are people trying so hard to find excuses for Salems performance at Apex? Isn't it amazing to have such a huge surprise, there is no need to find some weirdass excuses, Salem is just good. MU inexperience shouldn't even be considered at top level of play.

Salem's definitely good, but MU inexperience should definitely be considered at top level of play. Pretty sure I already mentioned this, but right after Salem beat Otori I spoke to him and hehimself told me that Otori wasn't good at the MU.
(Which is exactly what I was thinking as I watched, and what I've said about Otori after watching him vs Kamemushi which was like 2 months before Apex)

 

[bubbaking]

What about the ability to adapt after, you know, a game (or two if you were in Finals or you managed to win a game)? If you can't eventually adapt to everything that's catching you off-guard during a set, then I must say you're being out-played. Also, there really are no excuses after you've played multiple high-level ZSS players. Really, there aren't. All the excuses being thrown into this discussion are quite pointless.

This doesn't hurt my argument that ZSS is TT in the slightest.

Also, has it occurred to anyone that, to Salem's eyes, it might as well be that NOBODY KNOWS THE MU? The same could be said of Ally's Snake, DEHF's Falco, etc. (as SFP pointed out). Not knowing how to fight Salem's ZSS =/= not knowing how to fight ZSS.

 

[Spelt]

MU inexperience shouldn't even be considered at top level of play.

Statements like these are why nobody takes anyone on this thread seriously.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Statements like these are why nobody takes anyone on this thread seriously.

Only bubba said that lol

 

[bubbaking]

I'm starting to question whether I should take anyone who has said "Salem's performance at APEX doesn't matter/was lucky/facilitated by easy bracket/etc." shouldn't be taken seriously for a looooong time. It's such a..........logically fallible argument.

Edit: When the heck did I say that? MU experience definitely matters, but saying that everyone didn't have any is kinda dumb, IMO.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Apex doesn't count because I think ZSS is bad" is the theme of the tier list thread atm lol

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

"Apex doesn't count because I think ZSS is bad" is the theme of the tier list thread atm lol

that's a pretty good theme imo


Now for some actual important discussion

Jigglypuff > Captain Falcon

 

[ぱみゅ]

"Unity".

Oops, my bad.

Uhhh, and what's wrong with this? DL64 is honestly the ONLY stage in SSB 64 that isn't heavy CP material. The USA stage list is really a compromise to bring more variety, but it also induces more Brawl-like camping and defensive play.

Sorry for this question, I don't really play 64.
How much does YI, Dreamland, Saffron City, Zebes and Mushroom Kingdom affect their game?

That just makes you a hypocrite in action but not one in faith.

How are them any different if you don't show evidence of your faith?

Random note: Salem is the only top ZSS without a more talented brother.

Wow.... just wow. No sarcasm, that's an amazing fact I didn't notice before....


Salem did great at one tournament.
I really doubt a ZSS (him included) does that again, or gets even close to that.

"Apex doesn't count because I think ZSS is bad" is the theme of the tier list thread atm lol

But Apex2013 DOES count....
So did PoundV at a point (Diddy), APEX2010 (Falco), and APEX2012 (Olimar).



EDIT: ugh, why does the BBCode do that to the quotes? D:

 

[Magickus]

Ok I have no idea what the current topic at hand is but let me just say one thing about that tier list: dat

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Falco and Olimar only won one national too, AFAIK. Diddy might have won another one, but not recently.

Falco also didn't play any Pikachus. Falco for C tier.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Dabuz and Esam won Impulse/Whobo 4, as and / respectively, but that was a banned national. won 3 nationals since 08. won 1. Almost every national since the start of brawl has been won by either M2k or Ally.

List of nationals I remember off the top of my head with the winners and characters they used listed:

• CoT4- M2k
• CoT5- Ally //
• Pound 4- Adhd
• Pound 5- Ally //
• Impulse ( banned)- Dabuz
• MLG Dc- Adhd
• MLG Orlando- M2k
• MLG Dallas- Gnes
• MLG Raleigh- M2k
• MLG Columbus- M2k
• Apex 2009- Ally
• Apex 2010- Dehf
• Apex 2012- Otori
• Apex 2013- Salem
• Genesis 1- Ally
• Genesis 2- M2k
• SRT- Rain
• SKTAR- Nairo
• Whobo 3- Ally //
• Whobo 4 ( banned)- Esam /
• EVO 2008- CPU

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry for this question, I don't really play 64.
How much does YI, Dreamland, Saffron City, Zebes and Mushroom Kingdom affect their game?

[collapse=Saffron City]Saffron is largely the same as Foursides in Melee. I don't think I have to explain why that stage literally invalidates a bunch of the cast and strongly discourages anything other than the most 'timeout-est' of play. That and Pokemon randomly pop out of the door, even if you don't go into it. That's really bad. Don't forget that in SSB 64, walls can't be teched. Ever heard of 'Fox in the box'? [/collapse]

[collapse=Dreamland and our other legal stages]Dreamland IS the one neutral that's allowed in the Japanese SSB 64 ruleset. It's the same as Melee DL64 but smaller. The neutrals we have that Japan doesn't are Hyrule Castle (Fox in the box, random tornados that kill or set up kills, super large with extremely campy layout) and Kongo Jungle (same as KJ64 in Melee, super large and can be campy if the right characters are playing on it [can even induce circle camping], barrel at the bottom can cause some ridiculous saves [and deaths], stage can be travelled through from the bottom which makes recovering/'sharking' easy for some but makes sweetspotting the ledge extremely difficult for many). The one CP we have that Japan doesn't have (they don't have any ) is Peach's Castle (moving bumper at the top which kills, moving 'boardwalks' at the bottom, 'curbs' at the sides which can save chars from otherwise definite KOs but can also set up combos, NO LEDGES anywhere on the stage).[/collapse]

[collapse=Yoshi's Island]Yoshi's Island is terrible! It's the same as YI in Melee. The main stage is perfectly fine; it's the clouds that are stupid. If you want to see a very good demonstration of WHY those clouds are stupid, watch the following video:

Now, in a regular 1v1 match, consider this scenario: You're knocked onto the far right cloud and then your opponent takes up a very strong position on the near right cloud. What reason could you possibly have to even THINK about trying to come back? Whoever's in the lead at this point wins unless possibly the person losing is one the on the far cloud and he decides to give up a stock for free in order to get back to the stage. [/collapse]

[collapse=Planet Zebes]The acid kills and the stage is actually the PERFECT format for circle camping when the acid is low. It's also impossible to die via the bottom blastzone; the acid's ALWAYS there. There's also an extremely campy area on the right (the 'elevator' platform) that is nigh unapproachable when Fox, Kirby, and Pika (the good characters) are on it.[/collapse]

[collapse=Mushroom Kingdom]Walk-offs on both sides. Now before you say walk-offs aren't bad, consider the fact that DK's cargo hold grab break gives him enough frame advantage to EASILY (I can do it in my sleep) re-grab his opponent. So getting a kill is as easy as grabbing the opponent, walking towards a blastzone, re-grabbing the opponent whenever he breaks out, and then throwing him to his death. Also, the piranha plants come out of the pipes sporadically and they kill. Mushroom Kingdom also has its own special form of 'circle camping' facilitated by the pipes. The top left is also one of the campiest and hardest to approach areas in the entire game[/collapse]

In short, no stage other than Dreamland really deserves to be a CP, let alone a neutral. The USA ruleset is being way too gracious just to bring 'diversity'. If anything, the optimal conservative + liberal stagelist would feature a single starter with DL and would then allow Hyrule, Kongo Jungle, and Peach's Castle as CPs. Why three of the four mentioned stages are starters is waaaaay beyond me.

How are them any different if you don't show evidence of your faith?

So we agree then?

Falco and Olimar only won one national too, AFAIK. Diddy might have won another one, but not recently.

I think Diddy won one of the MLGs, but I'm not sure.....

Edit: Ninja'd by Seagull while I typed that ultra-long post.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Scroll up Bubba. has won 3 nationals...I JUST POSTED EVERY NATIONAL SINCE 08.

 

[infiniteV115]

If IMPULSE is gonna count as a national then I think it makes sense for you to throw in WABA as well (ESAM won it, so another national for /). Pretty sure WABA had more people and it definitely had more top level players.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If it wasn't labeled and advertised as a national, I didn't post it. If I were to include tournaments with large proportions and several top players like Waba then that throws a ton of tournaments to my list (School is in sessions, Waba, that Wc tourney Larry beat M2k twice at, Winterfest, CaT4, etc...).

 

[BlueXenon]

I didn't know Rob won a national tournament. That was surprising to read.

 

[infiniteV115]

It was very soon after the release of Brawl and items were legal. Ken was losing to spotdodge-->dsmash XD

 

[ぱみゅ]

I didn't know DK had such a great Frame advantage... But then again, Stagebans ar-- *shot*
Pokémons randomly popping out is something I wouldn't mind. It's a point to avoid, nothing wrong with that. Not being able to tech walls is the important part of the stage, imo.
I really don't understand the acid argument for Zebes. If you go down you can't die, but acid kills anyway, so it's only matter of time. That's what I understood with your post.

I didn't list hyrule because I know it is already widely played.

It looks like hatred for stages is something that has existed for a very, very long time....



Also, EVO2008 was played with items

 

[Seagull Joe]

Playing with items (Evo), banning (Whobo 4/Impulse), making green green/norfair/port town legal (Any of the MLG's) etc...What's the difference? Adding/subtracting a major portion to/away from the game adds an entirely new perspective, gimmicks, and capabilities for everyone.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I know, I wasn't discrediting your list, CPU, or anything.
I just felt like pointing that out, specially for Xenon who apparently didn't know a ROB won such a big tournament.

 

[bubbaking]

Kyokoro, you've very clearly never played on Saffron. The Pokemon pop out in the very middle of the stage, where much of the 'non-campy' fighting takes place. There is NO warning and some of them shoot fast projectiles. Almost all of them kill on contact. That's like random tripping level 9000. It's like combining tripping with pokeballs. The walls isn't even the worst part. Hyrule has walls and most people don't mind. It's really just using them to your advantage to extend your combo, which is actually fair. The buildings become a problem because of how far you can fall between them and how close they are to each other. No, that stage will never be legal, and it has nothing to do with your so-called "hatred of stages". If you're going to argue that Saffron should be legal, then you might as well argue that The Summit should be legal in Brawl.

Did you even read my statements regarding Zebes at all? The acid constituted, at most, like, a quarter of that paragraph. Did you just ignore the part where I said the stage is perfectly laid out for circle camping and one specific part of the stage is basically tent heaven? There is SO much wrong with Zebes that you can't possibly attribute its ban to "hatred of stages either". As for the acid, you make it sound like those problems 'counteract' each other to make the whole feature OK, but you fail to realize that those problems become extremely important at different parts of the match.

Not being able to die at the bottom means you severely nerf all characters who utilize spikes and gimps to secure kills. I forgot to mention that you can go through the bottom of this stage, too (a la KJ). The acid having KO power comes into play when it rises. The stage is HUGE, both horizontally and vertically, but the acid still comes all the way up to cover every part of the stage other than the top plat. This makes it pretty hard to escape being hit by the acid if you are near the bottom. There also very few telltale signs that the acid is rising, unlike Brinstar.

About Mushroom Kingdom, I forgot to say that there are POW blocks, which hit everyone standing on the ground and kill (at pretty low %'s). There is really no reason any of those stages should EVER be legal.

 

[Illuvial]

On the contrary, I have MAD respect for the potential rigor of their tourney set-ups. Single elimination forces one to be on his A-game all the time. Besides, it's really fine when you remember that their tourneys have no entry fees or rewards other than good ol' Asian honor and prestige.


Uhhh, and what's wrong with this? DL64 is honestly the ONLY stage in SSB 64 that isn't heavy CP material. The USA stage list is really a compromise to bring more variety, but it also induces more Brawl-like camping and defensive play.

I agree completely. Like I said, Japanese rules are just too bland for my taste. Of course it takes far more skill and their rules allow for more fair battles, but I prefer variety and fun over 100% fair... As odd as that sounds.

It is even odd for me to type this up considering I am a "tourneyfag". But I enjoy healthy competition, and if we decided to use the Japanese ruleset I would not mind that much.

 

[bubbaking]

I can respect that.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Only 3 stages in 64 are viable: Hyrule castle, Donkey kong, and Dreamland.

Saffron city isn't legal purely because cannot recover.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nice analysis on Saffron City, but once again, Pictochat is my favourite stage. I find nothing wrong with "random with no warning". "Random tripping level 9000" is an extreme overexaggeration btw (as much as this one statement).
And I agreed that walls being untechable is the huge part of it, any semi-gimp or small spike would kill at any moment, and if it is banned, it would be mostly because of that, imo.

As for Zebes, I didn't ignore the Circle Camp part, I understand it (I should've said so), but the part of "acid camping" is pretty dumb if it will eventually kill anyway. Also, I've seen speedruns where people do several spikes into acid. it might not be a kill, but it's still a lot of damage (which is HUGE in this game).
Hell, I won't even comment on its natural ability ro stop Circle Camp because I simply don't know the frequency of the Acid Rise.

Now, POW block sounds important. I wonder if people would be able to prepare for it. Doesn't sound like a real problem, but a gimmick.


Anyway, I don't really want to continue this topic because I don't play SSB64

 

[Illuvial]

I have never seen DK stage used in competitive 64 so I am just going to assume it sucks.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I play SSB64 and I think you fail to comprehend the reason only the three stages I listed are legal. I think you're just less informed due to lack of playing the game lol. Hope that does not sound too condescending because I'm not trying to sound like an ass.

 

[bubbaking]

^^^That's pretty much it. You have to play SSB 64 to understand why these stages are just BS, and SSB 64 was the game I was still playing after everyone else had moved on to Melee.

You can't "prepare" for POW blocks. Once they are hit, a hitbox is instantaneously placed at EVERY possibly location that one could be 'grounded' on (even the tops of the pipes and the plats). The only way you could "prepare" for a POW block would be to air camp, and even then, your landing could still be easily caught. The only real way to prevent being screwed over by it is chasing the opponent away from it and hitting it yourself. My memory is fuzzy but I seem to remember that the POW block popped up in different places as well.

I never said "acid camping" was a thing, because it isn't. <__<

@Illuvial: KJ is actually one of the 'better' stages in SSB 64. It's relatively tame compared to everything else. Still pretty radical compared to DL though, but in my eyes, DL is the only true 'neutral' stage.

Edit: About a year ago, I won a decently large SSB 64 tourney at my university and I am unashamed to admit that my victory was largely because of one thing:
Planet Zebes was legal, and I main Fox.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

M2K should've beaten him. I can't speak for Mr. R because I know very little about the MU.
Did Salem encounter any good ICs, Falcos or Diddys in bracket?

 

[bubbaking]

The bracket's public, dude.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I guess you are right, not knowing a game makes me unable to comment on it.
Still, there are some points I'd like to state, just as a mere observer.

-If Acid rises in, say, Brawl Brinstar's level of frequency, Circle Camp can be stopped. If it does in Brawl Norfair's frequency, or any lower than that, it's definetly very possible and as such, unfitting for competitive purposes.
-You still haven't made a good argument for the POW block. I imagine people can expect the opponent to try to "press" it he/she is close to it. In the end, I see it as a gimmick, and nothing more. If anything, it would be banned under the concept of Walkoff, and the fact the Stagelist is so small to even think about stagebans...