Official BBR Tier List v7

[Tesh]

There is some merit to the argument that he would lose to certain players, but ALOT of players have those weaknesses to the people that know them best. Yes people like Shadow and other weaker players from Salem's region might have him locked down, but at an international tournament its a good thing that he didn't fight his region until like top 16 and then grand finals.

At Apex 2012 Otori and Nietono could have lost to Rain if they faced him. Its great that there isn't a player on this planet who would definitely beat everyone else. Thats part of the hype at an international, no one knows who will win.


Zss is good, but it remains to be seen how good. She can be a glass cannon at times.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bubba: Just because I believe Salem's win was based upon several circumstances outside of his skill/experience (his inconsistency is evidence of this), does not mean I believe every win can be attributed to such occurrences. Does the phrase "strawman argument" mean anything to you?

PJB: OCEAN beat Mew2King - am I ignorant to say that that MK is a terrible MU or ROB?

 

[Djent]

Back when we were having fun making UMvC3 predictions for EVO, Vanilla champion Viscant mentioned how the best players still only have a small chance of winning the tournament. This is due to a number of factors, including the sheer number of things that can go wrong on a trip through Winners' bracket. I think Salem would *not* have won with any bracket, but the same can be said for any player, honestly. I don't think he would've beaten Dabuz or Rich Brown, for instance, if he couldn't even handle L_Cancel the month before. But that doesn't really take anything away from his victory, because there isn't anybody who can adequately prepare for every. single. threat. that could get in their way to Grand Finals. He *was* fortunate to have a bracket of MKs and Marths (because those are very manageable matchups for ZSS) - but winning an international takes fortune and skill.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There is some merit to the argument that he would lose to certain players, but ALOT of players have those weaknesses to the people that know them best. Yes people like Shadow and other weaker players from Salem's region might have him locked down, but at an international tournament its a good thing that he didn't fight his region until like top 16 and then grand finals.

At Apex 2012 Otori and Nietono could have lost to Rain if they faced him. Its great that there isn't a player on this planet who would definitely beat everyone else. Thats part of the hype at an international, no one knows who will win.


Zss is good, but it remains to be seen how good. She can be a glass cannon at times.

It's worth nothing that tournament brackets are designed specifically to avoid players having to play people from their own region until later in the bracket. I wonder why that could be.

 

[NickRiddle]

This argument is still going on?
Holy ****, give the kid his win. Was it MU inexperience? Was it people reacting like **** to side-b? Was it people getting overwhelmed with armor?
Why does it matter? A win is a win, no matter how much I hate saying this.

 

[Cassio]

Yeah, Im not sure why people make such a big deal about it when there are such caveats for virtually every victory in this game. Tell me what player would have made it through Apex regardless of who they had to play? If the answer isnt Salem, then its no one.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You're all only willing to accept results if they reinforce things that you already believed. When results contradict your beliefs, you reject them.

PJB with the touchdown.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I thought that was the norm here xD

 

[DeLux]

PJB with the touchdown.

It's like the mantra of the ICs tier list position

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's like the mantra of the ICs tier list position

Talking to yourself, huh?

 

[DeLux]

Quoted SFP, obviously talking to SFP?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Then why are you the one who constantly ignores the results of IC and downtalks them?

 

[Dekillsage]

Cuz Ic's suck rip

 

[DeLux]

Please point me in the direction of solo ICs winning on the Apex/Unity Rulesset which the tier list was based on, then we'll start talking results!

They are pretty good on the Japanese stagelist, but then you start giving away a free win per set in relevant MU's and we're looking at something which has had results equivalent with somewhere in the high tier

 

[fkacyan]

This argument is still going on?
Holy ****, give the kid his win. Was it MU inexperience? Was it people reacting like **** to side-b? Was it people getting overwhelmed with armor?
Why does it matter? A win is a win, no matter how much I hate saying this.

Giving him his win and then evaluating ZSS's change in the tier list as a result are two different things, broski. You have to analyze who he beat and why he beat them, not just the fact that he got a particular placement.

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQ6xJ3Zmo0&list=LLWWzsETkZsqO8Gn_gNkqdaw

 

[-LzR-]

ICs are the best secondary in the game though, but as a main they are not that good so I agree with Lux.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Thio links year old+ match from Salem's first or second tournament

Real life

 

[Rayquaza07]

I call bowser going down next tier list (due to not being used by many pplz at all).


any1 agree?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't think the lower tiers will be moved at all.
For Bowser to move down we'd need to see more gameplay of him, Captain Falcon and maybe Jigglypuff (a matchup where he has some serious abuses).

 

[Dark.Pch]

I just changed fox metagame for the better. And I don't even play fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpQ8ITvFPDU&feature=youtu.be

 

[Hokori]

I just changed fox metagame for the better. And I don't even play fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpQ8ITvFPDU&feature=youtu.be

This has to be one of the greatest videos I have ever seen for Smash. I started crying when it got to the Liu Kang Bicycle Kicks

 

[fkacyan]

Thio links year old+ match from Salem's first or second tournament

Real life

The best part is that he hasn't ever changed his recovery pattern.

But I bet you don't actually analyze his playstyle at all when you watch his matches.

EDIT: Just for funzies, Salem played Shadow about 2 months before Apex and lost again.

 

[pidgezero_one]

whoa smashboards is back up!

 

[Dekillsage]

The best part is that he hasn't ever changed his recovery pattern.

But I bet you don't actually analyze his playstyle at all when you watch his matches.

EDIT: Just for funzies, Salem played Shadow about 2 months before Apex and lost again.

Salem fixed his recover patterns and the problems with his playstyle during his time in pa. The way salem played at apex is a lot different than it was prior.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yeah I really don't see what you're going on about Thio.

 

[Tesh]

no shock people are still talking about it, this board analyzes every big win to death, and its even more interesting to discuss when its some random character like ZSS taking the gold.

 

[ぱみゅ]

whoa smashboards is back up!

I missed you, you made this thread not dead-serious and unfun

 

[PK Gaming]

ugh

I have a harder time trying to distinguish between backroom members (people to suck up to) and regular users (people to ignore)

bring back coloured names pls

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Bubba: Just because I believe Salem's win was based upon several circumstances outside of his skill/experience (his inconsistency is evidence of this), does not mean I believe every win can be attributed to such occurrences. Does the phrase "strawman argument" mean anything to you?

PJB: OCEAN beat Mew2King - am I ignorant to say that that MK is a terrible MU or ROB?

No, because Ocean beating M2K is literally one matchup that happened in one tournament. That's not the same thing as everyone denying Salem's success, because Salem beat everyone, not just M2K.

 

[fkacyan]

No, because Ocean beating M2K is literally one matchup that happened in one tournament. That's not the same thing as everyone denying Salem's success, because Salem beat everyone, not just M2K.

No, Salem beat a very specific subset of people.

 

[bubbaking]

Thio's a pretty good troll.

Bubba: Just because I believe Salem's win was based upon several circumstances outside of his skill/experience (his inconsistency is evidence of this), does not mean I believe every win can be attributed to such occurrences. Does the phrase "strawman argument" mean anything to you?

Salem's APEX win = multiple consecutive wins. Discrediting those is basically the same (worse, actually) as discrediting every Puff match that ever mattered. Jiggs usually doesn't accomplish anything meaningful, but when she does (rarely), it's because she was lucky, there was an extreme discrepancy in MU knowledge between the two players, and/or she faced players who were simply not playing well that day. Same logic, same deal.

PJB: OCEAN beat Mew2King - am I ignorant to say that that MK is a terrible MU or ROB?

One set is not comparable to an entire (international) tournament, lolz!

 

[Shaya]

salem deserved his win.

I don't think ZSS is that great though.

/thread

 

[bubbaking]

By good, I mean bad.

Salem deserved his win. ZSS should move up the tier list at least one spot into B Tier. Wario should move down the list at least one spot into C Tier. If you disagree with these, I may have to think you're an idiot.

The ICs should move up to #2, Olimar should become #3, and once ZSS has been moved up and Wario moved down, BL Tier should become the lower portion of High Tier. If you disagree with these, that's more understandable.....but still not very good.

I mean, ZSS isn't very good, so it is important to figure out why this obviously impossible thing managed to happen. This makes a lot of logical, scientific and statistical sense and is a really good way to find evidence for a hypothesis.

Indeed.

Edit: Idc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, because Ocean beating M2K is literally one matchup that happened in one tournament. That's not the same thing as everyone denying Salem's success, because Salem beat everyone, not just M2K.

It's comparable because I'm not trying to discredit Salem as much as everyone seems to think; the point was just that winning doesn't necessarily prove something, it just provides evidence for it. Just as M2K losing to OCEAN doesn't prove that OCEAN is incredible, M2K is ****, or ROB vs. MK isn't that bad a MU, Salem winning a large tournament doesn't prove that he is better than the players he beat, that ZSS performs well in the match-ups he won, etc...

Salem's APEX win = multiple consecutive wins. Discrediting those is basically the same (worse, actually) as discrediting every Puff match that ever mattered. Jiggs usually doesn't accomplish anything meaningful, but when she does (rarely), it's because she was lucky, there was an extreme discrepancy in MU knowledge between the two players, and/or she faced players who were simply not playing well that day. Same logic, same deal.

And going by results, I think Jigglypuff is a really, really, really **** character. So your argument doesn't really have any affect on me. If I was saying that Puff deserves to be higher on the tier list (rather than I feel she has the potential to be higher), you'd have a leg to stand on.

One set is not comparable to an entire (international) tournament, lolz!

You're right, it isn't. And one tournament isn't comparable to years and years of results, which everyone seems to be implying - mark my words; Salem will never come anywhere close to this level of success again because his victory was not a result of raw skill, and everyone who is overhyping both Salem and ZSS will get their comeuppance.

 

[Fujin 2]

salem deserved his win.

I don't think ZSS is that great though.

/thread

So Shaya can post these obnoxious weeaboo gifs, yet I get permabanned for posting much less annoying and more relevant gifs?

 

[bubbaking]

Looooooooooooolz! How ya been, Fuujin? (^_^)

You're right, it isn't. And one tournament isn't comparable to years and years of results, which everyone seems to be implying - mark my words; Salem will never come anywhere close to this level of success again because his victory was not a result of raw skill, and everyone who is overhyping both Salem and ZSS will get their comeuppance.

I am okay with this. When was the last time you saw DEHF ever win a national after APEX 2010? In fact, I think the only two players to consistently win nationals are M2K and Ally.

On an unrelated side note, I didn't know that DEHF actually went ICs and MK to take care of Pika.....

 

[bubbaking]

Double post, but it's been over an hour.

First in Apex, fifth at locals.

Zooooooooooooooom zoooooooooooooom.

What's your point? APEX is actually statistically waaay more important than any locals you're bringing up (not that I'm ignoring them; I'm just sayin'), and last time I checked, the "locals" Salem attended were really large and he actually did pretty well in them.

Actually, what the heck are you talking about? Please cite which tournaments you are referring to. I hope you aren't referring to Concentrate II and/or Impact IV, 'cause BOTH of those tourneys were definitely NOT locals. 5th place was actually very respectable for them. As for Collision V, that was a pretty large local, and you should know by now that the NY/NJ area is a stacked region, skill-wise, with probably the greatest concentration of top players anywhere in the world. ADHD, M2K, Nairo, Vinnie, NAKAT, Salem, Keitaro, Bizkit, Xzax, Luckay, PinkFresh, and Seagull (and more) were all in attendance. That tourney may as well have been a 'small regional'. Also, I gave all of those names in order of placings (as in ADHD got 1st, M2K got 2nd, etc.), so I guess Nairo isn't consistent because he got 3rd "at a local", huh? M2K isn't consistent because he didn't WIN said local.

#ThioLogic

@Thio and Grim: Speaking of skill and consistency, if you looked at his recent results starting at the end of 2011/beginning of 2012, Salem has actually been steadily improving at a pretty noticeable rate. 5th at Concentrate II, slight hiccup with 33rd at Apex 2012, 17th (top 24) at SKTAR (out of 140 entrants), 5th at Collision V, 5th at Impact IV, and finally, 1st at Apex 2013. To both of you, I don't see where you're getting your info that Salem's placings have not been consistent. His latest APEX win was a little surprising, sure, but it was never 'extremely unlikely' if you actually look at his past results OBJECTIVELY and WITHOUT BIAS.

Edit: I should probably also point out that Salem is a relatively new player. Concentrate II was his first tournament, people! He really hasn't been around long enough for you guys to be making claims like 'Oh, his results have been poor enough for me to conclude that his APEX 2013 win was a fluke and will never happen again. Salem = overhype.' Besides, even with his 'newness', he's been garnering great results right off the bat.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Great post^ But people will still say something stupid imo

I'm curious as to why people are always so quick to discredit others.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Great post^ But people will still say something stupid imo

I'm curious as to why people are always so quick to discredit ZSS players.

ftfy

 

[bubbaking]

That's a rarity for me. I'm not good enough of a writer to juggle between longs posts and good posts, so I pick the former because I like to talk and insert emoticons. I'm good at looking up data, though.

Thio, I'm like, really bored of you. You never provide any new material, you just recycle the same garbage over and over again. All of your points have been destroyed in this thread since Apex, that is, assuming you are even making points you believe and not partying under the bridge.

^^^This.

Or other characters need to be moved down to C-tier.

Yes, Wario should be moved down to C Tier. This doesn't change that ZSS should be at least B Tier.

If you're not a hypocrite in faith you're not a hypocrite at all. =P

I disagree with this solely because it is truly impossible to actually discern what one's "faith" is. If you disagree with that, you are objectively and impartially WRONG. Even one's own words are not a guarantee of the truth. As such, any descriptive words should be applied to one's actions in a statistical and scientific environment. I mentioned that I took a Journalism course in college, right? Well it was stated in said course that one can only make a claim that one is biased after identifying several articles that display said bias. We can't read the writer's mind so we have to prove our accusation through his actions. The same applies to "hypocrites".

Arguing about low tiers is really hard because they suffer from a few different problems that give them less usable data:

1. Low actual tournament use
2. Small pool of players
2. Lower abundance of talent, and realistically, a lower talent level -- I don't mean any disrespect, but it's fair to say that players more serious about the game aren't usually going to main Mario or Jigglypuff.

Dude, you repeated the number "2".
Serious talk: I actually disagree with that final point that Low Tier players share a "lower talent level". Looking at top Ganon players (ones who've won money), they are most definitely very good players and I've seen some of them pull off very respectable performances with other characters. Heck, doing well with Ganon at all usually means that you're consistently pulling off some pretty good reads coupled with great execution.

Arguments about low tiers are useless, not because the characters "don't matter" (even though that's debatable...) but more because there's just nothing to talk about. That's a big part of the reason Falcon has gotten so much more attention and discussion than other low tier characters: because we've seen what a top level player can do with Captain Falcon, so we have something to work with.

I'd argue that Ganon is also in that boat. We've seen quite a few good displays of what Ganon is actually capable of. However, I think most people are stuck in a 'ZSS rut' where they can't admit that Ganon ISN'T the worst character in the game.