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Official BBR Tier List v7

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bubbaking

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You honestly don't understand the game or the stage, tbh. The POW block appears randomly in one of several spots (and it re-spawns quite frequently). It could just pop up right above me as I randomly throw out an attack, and BAM, free KO for me because you happened to be standing on the ground somewhere and it killed you early. Even when its location is known, it's no gimmick. If someone's close to it, you have to avoid it by jumping. If you jump, you get landing trapped into being hit. If you think that's a gimmick, then you probably don't know what the 'Smash definition' of gimmick is, let alone the real definition (neither of which you are using). Walk-offs honestly are not even the major reason that stage is banworthy. I'm sure most players could care less about walk-offs if DK isn't involved.

A small stagelist isn't an excuse to have stupidly broken mechanics running rampant in the game. If you want that, then go play your own game with items on. Right now, you're trying to nitpick at every little thing, just because you want more stages (in a game you don't play). I'm all for more stages, but not if they take away the point of me building up skill to directly face my opponent by throwing in a game-changing roll of the dice.

Edit: What about player vs player do you not like in competitive games? Randomness is NOT player vs player. Stage features that can be predicted, planned with, and used (and avoided) in a strategic manner are fine, but once you start throwing in random elements that take away stocks instantaneously, then you start breaching on the part of the game where I was supposed to play against you, not my own bad luck. It seems as if.....you want stages that 'cover up' a severe difference in skill level. I don't see what there is about POW blocks that appear at random locations and kill that you see as fine and not banworthy. It just doesn't make sense. If you're fine with that, then are you also fine with Peach's Castle being legal in Melee? :smash:
 

ぱみゅ

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lol I don't "want more stages in a game I don't play", I want a good, convincing argument and you apparently can't provide it.
Heck, you've proven every other stage I mentioned, and I stand corrected about them.

I guess the POW block is something I'd have to see to understand it and define my stance about.
 

bubbaking

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.......................................................................................................................................................:facepalm: I honestly don't understand what wasn't convincing about a POW block that appears out of thin air in a random location, is active IMMEDIATELY, and kills any opponent who isn't airborne (IMMEDIATELY) being a ridiculous banworthy trait. That's on top of the Piranha Plants, which also kill, and the top left portion of the stage that is quite literally unapproachable once someone has set up camp there (all of which I mentioned before). If none of these arguments are good enough for you, it's pretty much because you don't want to hear a good argument. These traits are honestly more BS than many of the other stages I pointed out. The walk-offs are actually minor. Yes, you'd definitely have to see, or even better, play on the stage in person to see how stupid it is in its entirety. There's Brawl PS2 stupid, and then there's SSB 64 dumb stage stupid. :smash:
 

bubbaking

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There's a reason I put it on a whole other level from SSB 64 stupid. I will admit that PS2 "stupid" is largely subjective, although I do see a lot of actual legitimate issues with the stage. Most SSB 64 stages, including Mushroom Kingdom, are objectively uncompetitive, at least when your 'defined competition' is only supposed to be measuring one player's actions and decisions against another's.
 

Illuvial

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Oh my, I miss my PS2, it is the best system out there along with the Dreamcast! No but seriously bubba gave a flawless argument for why POW blocks are broken.

But one thing I do not get is this. Why has there not been a mod for SSB64 to fix things up and make it better? SSBB and SSBM have mods to make them better, so why not the original?

One last thing:
> Brawl character tier list
> Talking about SSB64 stage legality

I am ok with this
 
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So Salem being really good at the MK MU and having the few MKs that are experienced enough to beat him choke = omg zss and salem are amazing 4 lyfe
This could be said about like any tournament win

I mean, unless you're walking in to the discussion with the assumption that ZSS can't win anything legitimately and trying to work backwards from that assumption to arrive at a conclusion that supports your assumption. But nahh, no way you're doing that.

I mean, ZSS isn't very good, so it is important to figure out why this obviously impossible thing managed to happen. This makes a lot of logical, scientific and statistical sense and is a really good way to find evidence for a hypothesis.
 

ShadowLink84

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This could be said about like any tournament win

I mean, unless you're walking in to the discussion with the assumption that ZSS can't win anything legitimately and trying to work backwards from that assumption to arrive at a conclusion that supports your assumption. But nahh, no way you're doing that.
Well if you aren't assuming that he isn't assuming ZSS can't win anything, then this entire discussion is entirely pointless until he does say something along those lines.
Unless of course people are attempting to be witty in which case, I shall waggle my cane at you in a most menacing fashion!
 

fkacyan

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This could be said about like any tournament win

I mean, unless you're walking in to the discussion with the assumption that ZSS can't win anything legitimately and trying to work backwards from that assumption to arrive at a conclusion that supports your assumption. But nahh, no way you're doing that.

I mean, ZSS isn't very good, so it is important to figure out why this obviously impossible thing managed to happen. This makes a lot of logical, scientific and statistical sense and is a really good way to find evidence for a hypothesis.
First in Apex, fifth at locals.

Zooooooooooooooom zoooooooooooooom.
 
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Uh, ZSS' results are easily consistently B tier (Marth, Pikachu, Falco, so on). She's not as consistent as Olimar or ICs but no one wants ZSS in Olimar/ICs tier.

ZSS places at around-or-better-than Marth's level and won an APEX. She is not a consistently-winning character, but then, only like 2-4 characters are. This has already been established, like pages ago.

Thio, I'm like, really bored of you. You never provide any new material, you just recycle the same garbage over and over again. All of your points have been destroyed in this thread since Apex, that is, assuming you are even making points you believe and not partying under the bridge.
 

SoulPech

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You realize that she's not B tier now, right? She's C tier. She should be near the top of B tier.
you realize that I was copying what you said, right? I couldn't care less where ZSS is in the tier list honestly; I was essentially trying to figure out your last post.

In reality, this thread is no longer entertaining. I miss the Puff talk and Seagull's posts...
 

theunabletable

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Grim Tuesday said:
So Salem being really good at the MK MU and having the few MKs that are experienced enough to beat him choke = omg zss and salem are amazing 4 lyfe
I don't really understand where this position comes from. What must someone who says this think that a tier list is created to represent? What, in your opinion, is a tier list intended to show, and how does that opinion lead to the statement you just made there?
 

Grim Tuesday

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I think ZSS deserves to be higher than she is.

I'm just saying that the credit people are giving Salem is bull**** and a lot of his wins can be explained away due to the MUs he encountered and whether his opponents were playing well or not.
 

bubbaking

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The credit people are giving Salem is well-deserved, IMO. An international is an international and the bracket was stacked. It doesn't matter which ones specifically there were. The fact still remains that he had to fight through mostly (read: almost completely) disadvantageous MUs to win the tourney, all without losing a set. Similar arguments to what you're saying could be made for ANY tourney, large or small, to attempt to discredit the winner's achievement. Those arguments are arbitrary. It's really useless to speculate 'what-if' in this case. I don't think DEHF had to fight ESAM at Apex 2010. If he had, he would have surely lost, I think. Things like 'playing well' is really just a lame excuse, a.k.a. a john, that shouldn't be taken seriously when we are discussing tournament and MM data. MUs are one thing. 'Playing well'? Different and irrelevant.
 

theunabletable

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I wasn't as much debating ZSS' placement as I was curious what you even think a tier list is. Statements like that are so strange to me, I can only imagine that a different opinion on what "tier list" means must be involved in them.

I don't see how someone can say that an Apex winner receives too much credit because of the matchups or players that they faced. And to say that an international tournament win doesn't reflect anything about ZSS on the tier list must come from a different baseline opinion on the meaning of "tier list". So, what do you think a tier list should measure? What's the goal of a tier list?
 

bubbaking

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But one thing I do not get is this. Why has there not been a mod for SSB64 to fix things up and make it better? SSBB and SSBM have mods to make them better, so why not the original?
Actually, there have been, but SSB 64 mods are much more susceptible to bugs and crashes than Melee and Brawl mods. In addition, the SSB 64 competitive scene shares the same belief as that of the other Smashes in that it believes that mods should never be used in an official tournament. That and SSB 64 is almost always played on actual N64's, not Wiis, at large tournaments. I don't think I need to tell you that N64's really limit mod potential.

So Salem being really good at the MK MU and having the few MKs that are experienced enough to beat him choke = omg zss and salem are amazing 4 lyfe
Using your logic, Jigglypuff is simply an incredibly horrible character. Every time a Jigglypuff seems to "do well", it's simply because either:
  1. The Jiggs is really good at that MU.
  2. The player is bad at the MU.
  3. The player choked.
There we have it. Jiggs sucks and should be at the very bottom of the tier list, even below Ganon who has actually won more money than Jiggs and is thus more 'consistent'.

#GrimLogic
 
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Arguing about low tiers is really hard because they suffer from a few different problems that give them less usable data:

1. Low actual tournament use
2. Small pool of players
2. Lower abundance of talent, and realistically, a lower talent level -- I don't mean any disrespect, but it's fair to say that players more serious about the game aren't usually going to main Mario or Jigglypuff.

I don't really bother with low tiers because beyond the fact that we know they're all not good characters, there's not a lot to say. Do I think Jigglypuff is better than Captain Falcon? Not really. Can I show why without long essays and theorycraft posts? Again, not really. Theorycraft is useless without an abundance of data. That's why every time I post a tier list I tend to just cut things off after around the top of mid tier. :/

Arguments about low tiers are useless, not because the characters "don't matter" (even though that's debatable...) but more because there's just nothing to talk about. That's a big part of the reason Falcon has gotten so much more attention and discussion than other low tier characters: because we've seen what a top level player can do with Captain Falcon, so we have something to work with.
 

#HBC | Joker

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Everyone posting in this thread is being dumb.

If Otori had come back over and whooped everybody's asses again, people would be saying "lol, japanese and MK 2 gud. They so much better than us"

But then Salem wins instead, and nobody is willing to say "ZSS is gud". You're all only willing to accept results if they reinforce things that you already believed. When results contradict your beliefs, you reject them. Stahp.

And for the people who insist on saying "lol, Salem wulda lost if he faced such-and-such-player." you're full of it. Salem didn't drop a single set. If he had lost any of them, he still could've come back and won it. Yea he had a good bracket. Know why? Cuz he didn't lose to anyone. That's what happens when you play well in a tournament. Then he got to top8, where all the best players were. He still didn't drop any sets. Because he's ****ing good. Why will nobody just accept that? It's right there in front of your faces.
 
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