Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

Oh, and just to contribute something to the discussion Ganon can be good and have good tools and still be last place. Being the "Relatively worst character" doesn't mean he can't pull off wins.

I think what Kyo meant by this is that in a hypothetical game, a character can be the worst in the game and still be good and have good tools and be viable and whatnot. It'd just only work if the game was balanced.

eg if there was a game with just MK, Olimar, Pikachu and ZSS, ZSS would be the worst char in the game. But she'd still be viable since all her MUs, while losing MUs, are only slight disadvantages and are realistically winnable/manageable.

idk why he/she mentioned Ganon though, cause he has MUs that are unrealistically winnable. Maybe that's not what Kyo meant XD

 

[bubbaking]

I see what you're saying V115, but now I have to call you to look at the labels of our tiers. We have 8 tiers with totally different alphabetic labels, split up into five subgroups. In actual balanced games, you'll see that different tiers DON'T have "totally different" alphabetic labels. You'll see things like 'A+', 'A', and 'A-'. This accurately shows the degree separation between tiers to show that, yes, the game is quite balanced. Now, for argument's sake, we COULD possibly say that every Brawl tier within a subgroup is actually a 'mini-tier within a letter' (i.e. our S, A, and B Tiers could actually be S, A+, and A-), but we still end up with five tiers. If a game is balanced, you simply don't end up with that many tiers. To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you. I actually agree, but we were talking about Ganon and I personally think Kyo's post was terribly misplaced.

For instance, GGXXAC+R is a pretty balanced game. It has its problems, but it's widely applauded on its balance; the game has just three tiers (actually 6 'mini-tiers' divided into 3 tier sub-groups).

Actually V, you can probably ignore 75% of that post, because now that I look back at my words, it seems aimed at nobody, but I'm not deleting it. Put way too much work into typing this stuff.....

tl;dr - In our game, being on the bottom means you're bad.....REALLY bad.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I thoght you already responded when you didn't quote the posts.
I simply didn't post it before because it wasn't needed, and here it isn't realy necessary, but it was almost literally what I had written.
The post wasn't supposed to be serious and you're overreacting a little bit.

*will edit later on the other part of the post, this was more important to clarify first*

 

[bubbaking]

Wasn't meant to be serious? Now how the heck was your post worded for me not to take it seriously? You should go look at it again. You say I use emoticons like the troll face incorrectly, but you should really check out some of the wording on your posts.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I will do that, I'm sorry if anything felt actually offensive, I didn't mean to harm... ever....

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, it's fine, but I'm a very confrontational person; I like confrontations. Debates are the heart and soul of confrontations. Sometimes, I wonder why I didn't decide to major in Politics or something, so I could actually learn proper debating techniques and stuff. Even I can recognize that some of the ones I use now are......sub-par, or at least worded really, really badly.

@kyokoro
That's part of the point though. If an opponent screws up/gets hard read against a Ganon, it matters more than screwing up/getting hard read by other low tiers. Ganon's still a terrible because he has to take risks and rely on severe mistakes in order to get these hard punishes or even just to hit you, but when these mistakes are made Ganon leaves a bigger dent.

This. I actually missed it before, but I totally agree.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I didn't go politics/law because they are **** in this country.... As in, seriously bad, law protects everyoen but authorities are biased towards influential people, like everyone fear their positions or even life. In theory I would've done good, but in practice, I'd know how powerless a normal person is.


Anyway, yes V, I was talking exactly about that, but instead of just top tiers, I was talking about low tiers.
Among Ganon, Zelda, Link, Jiggz, Falcon, Mario, Bowser and Samus, everyone have different playstyles, and pretty much everyone of them have good moves and good tools (except Samus and Zelda, their designs are terrible) that get hindered by exploits every other character gets on them (like Jiggz's weight), or the fact they can't rely on those tools (Ganon can't approach, Zelda can't attack nor camp, Samus can't kill, Falcon and Mario lack range, etc).
Every low tier have tools, even some good tools that can make them win games when used right or via reads (let's not say among Top Tiers, but against mid and low, wins are realistic).

The point being, being the "relatively worse character", or being part of the "relatively worse tier" doesn't make a character absolutely worthless. Definetly unviable for tournaments and less likely to win, yes, but still, a player can manage to work with them.



EDIT: btw, a couple months ago in this same thread we were precisely talking about Ganondorf, and I was part of the group that supported the "Ganon gets waaaay more reward than Zelda for his reads and bad moves" side.

 

[infiniteV115]

Samus is definitely better than Zelda Ganon Falcon Jiggs Link. You crazy

 

[ぱみゅ]

I know, not in vain she is above all of them, but her design is terrible
She has weight, a VERY good recovery and a collection of frametraps worthy of a top tier, but she still has many flawls that can be exploited.
Most LT or BT characters can somehow win even if they recieve tons of chip damage (via grabs or Homing Missiles) during the whole match....

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Lucas>Mario>Bowser>Jigglypuff>Falcon>Samus>Link>Ganondorf>Zelda

imo

 

[bubbaking]

If you're gonna compare characters that are 'close to each other' in Brawl, though, you should only be comparing H+ Tier chars, because Brawl's balance is horrible. Even G Tier is a lot better than H+ Tier. Lucas, Samus, and even Bowser honestly don't deserve to be compared to them. So looking at solely H+ Tier, I'm saying that Ganon's meager tools are better than those of others in H+ Tier (maybe all of them, but I'm not going to make that claim yet). I've been on this boat since 2010.

Ganon isn't the worst.

Btw, IMO, Samus is a GODLY character among the Low Tiers. IMO, Lucas should be raised to Mid Tier and then Samus should be moved up above Mario to become the new top of Low Tier. She has a bunch of great tools to help her a lot. She kinda lacks power, but exactly who in Low Tier doesn't, other than Lucas (not a LT char, IMO), Bowser, and Ganon (two very established powerhouses).

So I was looking at some random Vinnie vids, and came across the video below and immediately thought of our discussion involving how badly Falco loses to Pika:
Vinnie (Pika) vs Pelca (Falco)
I know this video is a little old (mid-2011), but I honestly don't think that Vinnie, a person who doesn't main Pika nor secondaries him nor even 'tertiaries' him (he tertiaries MK), would be 3-stocking one of the BEST Falco mains in NA at the time if the MU was anything better than a -2 for Falco. Honestly, I think the MU is either a difficult -2 or an easy -3. By the way, don't be fooled by the title. It says "Friendly" but Vinnie clearly stated that it was a MM, so it's on record.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Pelca played horribly there lmao

 

[bubbaking]

Do I hear excuses? It was an MM. I kinda agree, but even if he played better, how much better would he have had to play to turn a 3-stock into a win?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pelca is considered one of the best mains in NA? Lolwut? I have literally no idea where you make your basis/claims about things Bubba.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well there aren't really that many good Falco mains in NA
Larry is obviously the best in NA
Shugo would be second

...Next would be I guess Keitaro/Xzax/Pelca? I guess you can say he's one of the best Falco mains in NA seeing as how he's basically default top 5.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Do I hear excuses? It was an MM. I kinda agree, but even if he played better, how much better would he have had to play to turn a 3-stock into a win?

Maybe if Pelca had played the MU correctly and not made stupid decisions he would have won.

Also what Seagull said.

Edit: V, are you forgetting about Bloodcross? I know he doesn't play Falco much, but back when that video happened Bloodcross was arguably the number 3 Falco.

Also forgetting SK92

 

[NH Cody]

Pelca is obviously one of the best Falco mains *today,* but bringing up that silly match is ridiculous and irrelevant lol

> MMs from 2011 in 2013 discussion

 

[Seagull Joe]

Quest is never right, but in this case he is.

Lucas>Mario>Bowser>Jigglypuff>Falcon>Samus>Link>Ganondorf>Zelda

imo

You're bad and you should feel bad about being bad. is so much better then , , , and .

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh right SK92. I knew I was forgetting someone.
And yeah true BC > Pelca at the time probably imo tbh

 

[bubbaking]

Pelca is considered one of the best mains in NA? Lolwut? I have literally no idea where you make your basis/claims about things Bubba.

I don't know when Pelca was ever NOT considered to be one (key word: one) of the best Falcos in the past couple of years.

Well there aren't really that many good Falco mains in NA
Larry is obviously the best in NA
Shugo would be second

...Next would be I guess Keitaro/Xzax/Pelca? I guess you can say he's one of the best Falco mains in NA seeing as how he's basically default top 5.

Next, right now (this year), would be Xzax. He was the second-highest placing Falco at Apex 2013, followed by Pelca (huh, would you look at that... ), followed by Keitaro, followed by M@v and Bleachigo. Also, I'm surprised you didn't mention Kismet. He's definitely a top Falco. If you asked me, I'd say we have 6 top Falcos. In order of skill, I'd order them as follows:

1. DEHF
2. Shugo
3. Xzax
4. Pelca/Keitaro/Kismet

 

[fkacyan]

@Thio and Grim: Speaking of skill and consistency, if you looked at his recent results starting at the end of 2011/beginning of 2012, Salem has actually been steadily improving at a pretty noticeable rate. 5th at Concentrate II, slight hiccup with 33rd at Apex 2012, 17th (top 24) at SKTAR (out of 140 entrants), 5th at Collision V, 5th at Impact IV, and finally, 1st at Apex 2013. To both of you, I don't see where you're getting your info that Salem's placings have not been consistent. His latest APEX win was a little surprising, sure, but it was never 'extremely unlikely' if you actually look at his past results OBJECTIVELY and WITHOUT BIAS.

Stop looking at where he placed and start looking at who he beats.

The analysis in the community is so effing pathetic.

 

[bubbaking]

You're pathetic. Why don't you read my posts? The one you just quoted is soooooo far back. If you bothered to keep up, you'd see a little of my reasoning.

V, are you forgetting about Bloodcross? I know he doesn't play Falco much, but back when that video happened Bloodcross was arguably the number 3 Falco.

Also forgetting SK92

Oh, I forgot about Bloodcross.

SKwho now?

Pelca is obviously one of the best Falco mains *today,* but bringing up that silly match is ridiculous and irrelevant lol

> MMs from 2011 in 2013 discussion

It was mid-2011. 2013 kinda just started. Not that irrelevant just 'cause of its age, tbh, but I did say that the match was a little old.

 

[infiniteV115]

Right, Kismet too. Oops XD

 

[NH Cody]

I thought this was a tier list thread, not a revival attempt for the top 5 thread

 

[bubbaking]

Since when was this a tier list thread?

 

[Seagull Joe]

I thought this was a tier list thread, not a revival attempt for the top 5 thread

Top 5 right here.^

 

[pidgezero_one]

I thought this was the western hemisphere social

 

[bubbaking]

I liked that post, but I must actually disagree. Europe pops in every now and then, and what would this thread be without Australia (read: Grim)? Can't be biased now.

 

[infiniteV115]

and what would this thread be without Australia (read: Grim)? Can't be biased now.

A lot better

 

[NH Cody]

okay, so

Snake is in reality #2 and will always be.

 

[bubbaking]

Where you from? Ahhh, NH. Alright, that's understandable. The Snakes run strong in New England, don't they?

 

[NH Cody]

uhhh why does it matter that there are many snakes nearby me lol

The best snakes are in Canada, Texas, Florida, and California anyways, not here...

by matchups he's clearly the second best character

 

[bubbaking]

Except by MUs, the ICs are VERY "clearly the second best character."

It matters because being dominated regularly by Fatal and Bizkit (they're from NE, right?) would make anyone think Snake is a god.

Edit: How can you say that the best Snakes reside in the same state as the 'Snake killer'?

 

[ぱみゅ]

And by Weighed MUs, ICs and Marth are very strong competitors.

Snake has the "con" of having two -1s and two 0 against the others in the top 5. In the top 10 he still only gets two more -1s

 

[NH Cody]

Your posts make you look like you're 12, especially with the overuse of smilies.

1. ICs go even with or lose to a lot of characters who can just camp. They are not second based on matchups. They're also obviously not second because of results and their steep learning curve. The only exception I can think of recently is 9B winning that tourney in Japan, and Otori/Mikeneko/Rain were not even there IIRC.
2. I have no idea what your second statement is supposed to mean, or how it's relevant at all.

 

[bubbaking]

ICs straight-up beat half of Top Tier (and the rest of the non-TT cast) and go even with the other half, barring MK.

You got a problem with my use of smileys, bud?



Edit: Since when did a "steep learning curve" make a character worse, lolz?

 

[NH Cody]

no they don't..?

MK: ICs get *****. must be a strong disadvantage
Snake: this MU doesn't happen often but I do recall Fatal beating Vinnie, so, winnable MU for snake
Olimar: even MU/maybe a slight disadvantage
Diddy: idk much about this MU but I imagine it's around even.
Marth: ICs lose. 45:55 probably.

and ICs lose to random lower tier characters like toon link and ZSS, so, lol...

 

[ぱみゅ]

The learning curve only matters to make MK look even better.

 

[NH Cody]

learning curve used to be a criterion for tier list positions. did they change it?

If it's no longer a criterion then toon link should be higher.

 

[ぱみゅ]

TL is well at that one spot, maybe one spot higher at best for him. I don't really think his MUs against TTs are good enough to make him rise.

Oh, and lol @ICs losing to Marth.