Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

Lolz, TL is where he is because that's how good he is REGARDLESS of his skill curve. Btw, good work naming only half of Top Tier. ICs only lose to MK -1. Large disadvantage? What are you smoking? Hmmm, Snake beats ICs just because Fatal beat Vinnie once in an even MU? OK. ICs lose to Olimar.....? Get back under your bridge! I don't want to see your kind anymore.

 

[NH Cody]

ICs obviously lose to Marth lol. the Marth just has to space fairs repeatedly and air camp. If the ICs mess up even slightly, the Marth can get them in the air and ****/separate them.

yes, MK - ICs is a large disadvantage because the ICs can literally do nothing if the MK camps. *see apex videos*

 

[bubbaking]

and ICs lose to random lower tier characters like toon link and ZSS, so, lol...

TL is High Tier. ZSS is top of High Tier and should actually be Top Tier. What about them strikes you as "random lower tier characters"?

"Marth just has to space fairs repeatedly." 2010 metagame.

 

[Dekillsage]

Toon Link is mid tier
Snake beats ice climbers clean
ics vs mk is not -1, especially not in the apex ruleset

 

[bubbaking]

Oh gosh, they came out in droves..... (-_-)

If you're going to make such wild, baseless claims, allow me to make a few of my own. Snake gets ***** by DDD and Pika. Clearly he can't be #2. That spot belongs to Ganon.

 

[Dekillsage]

.... snake vs ddd is 50-50
snake vs pikachu is -1 or 50-50

 

[NH Cody]

Toon Link is mid tier
Snake beats ice climbers clean
ics vs mk is not -1, especially not in the apex ruleset

Are you saying ICs have worse than a -1 vs MK or better than a -1?

The tier list on page 1 has Toon Link below Lucario. This is a problem.

 

[Dekillsage]

Worse than a -1 .

 

[ぱみゅ]

MK at least +2s everyone, obviously

 

[NH Cody]

Okay so we are on the same page then.

Bubba it's pretty evident that you're just trolling me but I'll play along and invite you to watch some Marth vs ICs vids. You'll notice how safe Marth is as long as he spaces properly.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg0Hc_MtQ7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM9tEpPS43s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKCOQzrVzA[/collapse]

 

[Dekillsage]

MK at least +2s everyone, obviously

I agree 100% nailed it right on the head.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubba it's pretty evident that you're just trolling me

Oh, I'm the one who's trolling now? Who was it that said that Olimar possibly beats the ICs, his worst MU? Clearly, you're either working on outdated information or you're sorely misinformed about the current metagame. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's the former since that would line up perfectly with a claim that Snake is #2. That's some old-hat talk, right there. :-|

 

[Cassio]

Quest your tossing out a lot of personal opinions that no ones really gonna agree with unless you back them up better.

While I think most ICs do worse vs MK on the Apex ruleset, its generally considered to be between 0 and -1/+1. I think most olimars and ICs feel olimar loses somewhere between -1 and -2. And while there are some outstanding sets of Marths beating ICs, the reverse is true as well. ESAM beat Leon, and lost to Mr. R. Mike beat Vinnie, but lost to a local IC's main. Both sides seem to think its about even, and the only discussion Ive heard lately that it might be better than that is towards ICs favor. However there has been improvement in the Marth meta-game lately so that could be subject to change, but it seems ongoing as opposed to whats currently established.

In regards to pika-snake, its somewhere between -1/-2. Port priority matters.

In regards to Pika-Falco, its still pretty tough for pika if the falco knows what hes doing, but with the new 0-death its probably a very difficult -2.

 

[bubbaking]

snake vs pikachu is -1 or 50-50

Records dictate very strongly otherwise, seeing as how ESAM has beaten just about every top Snake he's ever encountered to the point that they sometimes switch off the character for him.


#StayFree

 

[Cassio]

To be fair ESAM is the only one producing that sort of consistent result. But its at top level and hes definitely been extremely consistent.

 

[Tesh]

@ earlier discussion, you guys realize ocean beat more people at apex than salem did at apex because 2 rounds of round robin pools instead of 1 round of bracket pools? including drowning tearbear in round 2 before beating enough people to get to m2k.

ocean was obviously alot better than than any other ROB these folks had dealt with just like salem is a cut above all the other ZSS, but its possible playing people in his region that know the matchup exposed things that made him quit ROB, just as salem clearly doesnt do as well against people that have played him before.

 

[Cassio]

He didnt quit ROB, he retired iirc.

 

[DeLux]

Just going over the Top Tier assuming Apex stagelist, if your character has a sword or items, you're probably going to be even or better against ICs.

Specifically:
MK: between +/- 1 in MKs favor to +/-2 MKs favor assuming solo ICs. In greater detail, it's between even and -1 on most starter stages and -3ish on MKs counterpicks that you're forced to if played correctly
Diddy: Probably even, if not slightly moving towards ICs favor. I personally think it might be the most even MU in the game that's not a ditto
Snake: Snake used to be considered a +/-2 hard counter and ICs hardest MU back in the 2009/2010 metagame. As the metagame has evolved, it's generally considered by most to be between even or +/- 1 in snake's favor as new things are developed for ICs
Marth: On paper, Marth kind of poops on ICs. But in practice, it's a MU that's show itself to be pretty even.
Wario: Probably even if played absolutely correctly, but slightly in ICs favor if I had to pick one.
Zero Suit Samus: Probably a solid +/-1 in ZSS's favor. Some notable ICs think it's even though, some think it's ICs hardest MU
Toon Link: Probably a solid +/-1 in Toon Link's favor. I think if it's played correctly this MU might be the hardest for ICs, but I'm in the biased minority of having the most losses to TL in tournament compared to any other player in the world. Some think it's closer to the even side than the -2 side.
Peach: Probably a solid +/-1 in Peach's favor
Rob: Probably a solid +/-1 in Rob's favor
Ike: I personally think it's +/-1 in ICs favor, but there's been some decent sample evidence that it might be even for Ike

One outlier is Wolf, who probably is even to +/-1 in wolf's favor assuming the wolf knows what they are doing. If they don't, then it has the chance to be ugly for wolf. But that's not really an outlier since Wolf has a sword on his laser gun

The other is Link, who is probably +/-1 or 2ish in ICs favor due to lack of mobility. However Link doesn't really exist as a character, so it doesn't matter if it's an outlier to the swords and items rule

Everything else is pretty well shut down by ICs spectrum of options

 

[NH Cody]

Okay so you clearly didn't read what I said...

I backed up what I said a lot better than you "backed up" what you just said. I gave details about the matchup *and* videos. I don't think Leon has much ICs experience, plus ESAM is the better player to the extent that it outweighed the MU disadvantage and allowed him to win. If ESAM used ICs vs Mr R, then perfect, that supports the notion that Marth beats ICs. Who is this "local ICs main" and when did this loss of Mike's happen?

 

[bubbaking]

To be fair ESAM is the only one producing that sort of consistent result. But its at top level and hes definitely been extremely consistent.

One could argue that ESAM is the only top Pika that matters.

 

[Tesh]

He didnt quit ROB, he retired iirc.

i heard he quit ROB for MK after apex, havent seen him in results lately but iirc he did go mk that last few times before he quit

 

[bubbaking]

One outlier is Wolf, who probably is even to +/-1 in wolf's favor assuming the wolf knows what they are doing. If they don't, then it has the chance to be ugly for wolf. But that's not really an outlier since Wolf has a sword on his laser gun

Wolf beats ICs +1? That's a new one..... I'm pretty sure I've seen even Seagull (best Wolf) say that MU is probably slightly in the ICs' favor. Also, you forgot the DDD-lier. He has a hammer.

Okay so you clearly didn't read what I said...

I backed up what I said a lot better than you "backed up" what you just said. I gave details about the matchup *and* videos. I don't think Leon has much ICs experience, plus ESAM is the better player to the extent that it outweighed the MU disadvantage and allowed him to win. If ESAM used ICs vs Mr R, then perfect, that supports the notion that Marth beats ICs. Who is this "local ICs main" and when did this loss of Mike's happen?

Actually, Cassio backed up her statements WAY better than you did yours, since top-level results are actually more meaningful than the theorycraft you're giving, not to mention you are now trying to 'cherry-pick' the results Cassio gave you, which blatantly gives away your bias and partiality in this discussion. ESAM vs Leon counts just as much as ESAM vs Mr. R does. Stop this "better player" nonsense.

 

[Espy Rose]

@kyo: I was told by Chibo that only ~16 players went to Winter Brawl 7. If that's the case, then Salem doing good there really isn't something to write home about. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.
As an aside, the Melee event at WB7 was a disaster.

@DeLux: Sonic doesn't get shut down.

 

[DeLux]

It shouldn't be new. Kain has literally torn a new one for every IC he's played (outside my fluky win against him at Hype2). There have also been incidents of other Wolf's beating other ICs (mcpe/Esam off the top of my head).

It's at easily even for Wolf assuming the Wolf is without fear, ignorance, or greed in the MU


@Espy - he may not get shut down, but it's definitely not even or better since he has no sword or items

 

[Cassio]

Yeah I think there was some confusion around that time, but from what I gathered he retired but will enter from time to time as MK as opposed to giving up on ROB. Although someone feel free to correct me if they know more about it.

Bubba that depends on the context, but thats currently true of top level play.

Quest I wasnt really trying to make any claims, but youd made several the last two pages. I didnt bother to differentiate between player skill because your videos didnt either. In any case, its pretty rare that the MU is played much lately by top level players. Im not sure how far back is considered relevant, but I'd also forgotten that while Mr. R did beat ESAM at Apex he lost as Marth to Vinnie's ICs and switched to snake after at the same E4U Vinnie lost to Mike. And the local ICs player is named Maize, happened about 3-4 months ago. Hes actually a very strong player.

Who did Salem lose to at winterbrawl?

 

[NH Cody]

Oh I saw that tourney results page when it happened and assumed Maize used ROB.

My claim was that ICs are not the second best character in the game based on matchups like bubbaking said. This is becoming increasingly obvious if Delux is saying ICs lose to even more characters than I thought xD

 

[Cassio]

Well I dont really disagree with that statement. I think they can be depending on the ruleset (for instance, in the west coast we regularly use a limited ruleset with 5 traditional starts and CS/PS1 as the only CPs). Honestly Im not sure who would be the second best character. I used to be a big proponent of snake and still believe he is a strong character, but #2 doesnt seem to fit right either. Eh, maybe he could be by default.

 

[NH Cody]

#2 is suitable for him though. Snake has strong advantages on a lot of characters. His results are pretty consistent.

 

[Espy Rose]

I think M2K beat him Cassio.
@Delux: Sonic vs. ICs is even. You can never catch us, and we have many more options than what the ICs have to defend with. It's really easy to get in on them with or without desynchs.

 

[Tesh]

Damn Espy you cant' be serious. Do you have anything to even back that claim up?

 

[NH Cody]

prehistoric tourney vids of D1AOS come to mind. lol.

 

[pidgezero_one]

where the hell is the emoticon when you (i) need it

 

[ぱみゅ]

Espy just brought a good theory.

Theory like "Marth only needs to space well all the time" doesn't work because players eventually screw up and get grabbed.
If a Sonic screws up he... gets Uaired?

 

[Cassio]

Well I think the point Delux is making is that characters with swords and items tend to have a way of separating climbers with safe pokes. I do think that characters who simply have a significant amount of worthwile options can cause trouble for ICs, but theyre going to put themselves at the risk of being grabbed to do so.

Also Delux you forgot bit, I think he has some sort of saber.

Also snake does make lots of money, at least that seemed to be the case before john abandoned his project. But other characters have pretty dominating MUs as well.

 

[Excellence]

Espy just brought a good theory.

Theory like "Marth only needs to space well all the time" doesn't work because players eventually screw up and get grabbed.
If a Sonic screws up he... gets Uaired?

The fact that a player may fail to correctly apply a theory does not mean that the theory itself is shotty. Any match against Ice Climbers immediately plays into the gimmick of Grabbing-And-Avoiding-Getting-Grabbed; in which, ICs attempt to grab and the other player attempts to avoid being grabbed. Marth's range only gives his safer options to use against ICs but the real reason he is predisposed to beating them in because he effectively zones if not traps them in unfavorable situations where ICs can only make a mistake.

The end result of this match-up is going to be each player recognizing that they will unavoidably need to take damage in order to place damage on the other player. Each player will want to avoid the most damaging tactic of the other player will completely accepting any other degree of damage in exchange. ICs only have a few damaging tactics against Marth while Marth has numerous damaging tactics against ICs outside of their match-up metagame.

 

[Espy Rose]

Damn Espy you cant' be serious. Do you have anything to even back that claim up?

How many times has a good Sonic lost to a good ICs?
Hell, I know I haven't played many of them, but whenever I did, I always broke even or went positive in set numbers, and X did the same when he played, using the worst possible play-style against them no less.

 

[bubbaking]

It shouldn't be new. Kain has literally torn a new one for every IC he's played (outside my fluky win against him at Hype2). There have also been incidents of other Wolf's beating other ICs (mcpe/Esam off the top of my head).

It's at easily even for Wolf assuming the Wolf is without fear, ignorance, or greed in the MU

Idk. I'd trust the word of the best Wolf over that of a not-best ICs, no offense. If anything, even seems like a good place for that MU, seeing as how no one's brought up it up for discussion so it definitely isn't being changed.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Idk. I'd trust the word of the best Wolf over that of a not-best ICs, no offense.

Why?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kain has never beaten a top level ICs player and Pee beat ESAMs ICs with MK on RC or something. There are too many people like DeLux in this community who have short term success by abusing a broken character and then put him down as soon as he loses to a better player. That's why nonsense like IC losing to ZSS or Wolf spreads around.

 

[Iota]

MCPE beat Esams ICs 1 or 2 times on neutral stages before Esam switched to Pika. Esam lost to MCPE's MK on RC as pika.