Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

I'll come to impulse if someone drives me to canada... and someone in canada houses me


cmon guyssss I'm da bess #1

come on bro don't be a ***** this is a national just get a car pool with some NJNY doods or megabus it up here or something pls

Oh, so NOW my signature works but it's cut off? ._.
What a shame, it's a really really nice logo too

 

[Dekillsage]

#putdekillsageonthemegabus

Not going unless I can carpool with someone. Ti's the only way

 

[infiniteV115]

Why is megabussing not an option for you? No money?

 

[bubbaking]

That can't be it. With good planning, Megabus is $1. I'm a cheap, broke-*** n**** and even I can afford Megabus if I plan it properly.

@Shiny: Are you asking me to lie? I'll do it if it means I get P:M in.

 

[Dekillsage]

Why is megabussing not an option for you? No money?

I'd consider it if other people took it with me. I mainly don't want to travel to another country alone to get bodied by some random 300 pound dude who likes my shoes.

 

[bubbaking]

........................................................................................

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

That can't be it. With good planning, Megabus is $1. I'm a cheap, broke-*** n**** and even I can afford Megabus if I plan it properly.

@Shiny: Are you asking me to lie? I'll do it if it means I get P:M in.

Haha, the scheme has been made public, it won't work anymore

But if you want to go ahead (though you should come! Why wouldn't you want to come to Canada?)

And Dekillsage, no 300 pound dude would want your shoes, this is Canada we're talking about, and I doubt you own a pair of snowshoes

 

[bubbaking]

Aw man!

No reason at all! I used to live in Montreal, myself. Three of my cousins were born there, and as a result, they're trilingual!

What would a 300 pound dude do with snowshoes? Even snowshoes won't hold up THAT kind of weight...

Serious posting again:

You states that there are people like me in this community that have short term success by abusing a broken character and hten put him down as soon as he loses to a better player. This is false. I'm currently 0-26 against MJGs TL (most of those being finals sets). I've had a bunch of people yell at me to try winning with the CP options or a different character. My MK and ZSS do pretty equal to what my ICs do against his TL. But generally out of state and against MJG I'll play ICs to the death through the heavens of Rainbow Cruise to the Hells of Brinstar no matter who I play against.

To be fair, sticking with ICs through bad MUs does not actually prove that you don't "put him down as soon as he loses to a better player." It simply means that you want to stick with the ICs through thick and thin. I'm the same with DDD, but I'm not (too) optimistic about many of his MUs. I'll stick with him through bad MUs/records, but that doesn't preclude "putting him down".

Marth is probably ICs worst MU wtf.

You know that "worst MU" doesn't necessarily mean "bad", right? A -1 for a "worst MU" really isn't that bad at all. Besides, Peach and TL, and maybe ROB and ZSS (maaaybeee ZSS), are probably worse, IMO.

 

[infiniteV115]

I'd consider it if other people took it with me. I mainly don't want to travel to another country alone to get bodied by some random 300 pound dude who likes my shoes.

wat

nosrswat

 

[Dekillsage]

I want to go back to canada and impulse gives me a reason but I don't want to travel alone.



edit: it was a joke. rip joke

 

[bubbaking]

V, he's talking about you.

115 x 2 = 230

This is read as 3 alongside 2 0's. In other words, you are ALL (not half) of his nightmare.

Best that he doesn't come.......for his sake.

Edit: If you had to pick a digit randomly out of "300", there's a decent chance that you will end up with the 3-stock, but there's a much larger chance that you will end up as and with nothing. That's pretty scary.

 

[infiniteV115]

Back to Canada? When were you here last?

 

[bubbaking]

This is a stacked low-turnout local. Lolz, how does this happen?

Edit: Snake, Falco, and MK have scared everyone away. No wonder Quest thinks Snake is supreme.

 

[NH Cody]

lol bubbaking

you typed a bunch of paragraphs about nonsense. I never said anything that you claim I said, like how Marth is perfect or beats MK (obviously he doesn't beat MK).

1/10 reading comprehension

you've probably never even gone to an offline tournament and your lack of understanding is showing

 

[pidgezero_one]

It's addicting, isn't it? Emoticons are my new drug.

Edit: Sorry V, you lost my support. No Project M.

Who cares about PM? Your favouritest SWF poster ever is going to be there.

 

[Dekillsage]

Back to Canada? When were you here last?

Visited Canada long before I entered the scene lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7UfwTGLui8 Pikachu vs Snake 50-50

 

[pidgezero_one]

Dekillsage, you're more than likely to get housing.

If I end up finding a full time job and being able to keep my apartment, there's going to be a ****LOAD of housing.

 

[NH Cody]

and yes it may seem oversimplified that fair is invincible vs ICs, but it really is by far the most important move in the MU. It's not outrageous to say that Marth can beat ICs with only a small handful of moves in addition to fair.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Guys, I found a bunch of super useful information that is extremely important to this thread.

Fresh ZSS Dsmash kills Snake at 346% uncharged on FD with no DI or momentum cancelling.
It kills Jigglypuff at 317% under the same conditions.

Let me know how useful this information is and I may decide to post the rest of the characters I tested, test the rest of the characters I haven't, and re test everyone to make sure the info is accurate

 

[bubbaking]

you typed a bunch of paragraphs about nonsense. I never said anything that you claim I said, like how Marth is perfect or beats MK (obviously he doesn't beat MK).

1/10 reading comprehension

If you took that 'beating MK' part seriously, then I think you're the one who needs a reevaluation of his "reading comprehension". My point is that you're theorycrafting the balls off of Marth, which must explain why he doesn't have any. You blatantly ignore results, which is kinda dumb, and you expect us to believe that Marth beats ICs 'cause 'lolfair'. If you're gonna do that, you might as well extend the party to all of Marth's MUs, making him the A Tier demon that I used to argue he was until I realized that I myself was, well, theorycrafting the balls off of Marth.

you've probably never even gone to an offline tournament and your lack of understanding is showing

Couldn't be further from the truth.......on both accounts.

and yes it may seem oversimplified that fair is invincible vs ICs, but it really is by far the most important move in the MU. It's not outrageous to say that Marth can beat ICs with only a small handful of moves in addition to fair.

Fair is Marth's most important move in, like, MOST of his MUs. It being so in this MU is not very special. Can you please tell me a good ICs you've faced? I personally have faced Sorto (decent, relatively unknown ICs in NY) and DarkFlame with Marth, both to not much success. I spammed the living daylights out of spaced fair. Didn't work. Granted, I'm a bad Marth, but apparently, I'm not the only one who can't get 'spam fair' to magically win the MU. Btw, nobody is saying Marth definitely doesn't beat the ICs. Read my posts carefully. I never said it couldn't be a -1, but it isn't the 'destruction' that you're referring to and results suggest that the MU is even. The MU leans somewhere between even and -1, IMO. The MU is probably 55:45 in Marth's favor, not something you'd get with an "invincible fair". (-_-)

Edit: About Pika vs Snake, why oh WHY do people ignore results so hard? If ESAM has been bodying the pants off of every high/top Snake for the past 3-4 years so hard that some of them switch off of Snake to deal with it, why in the world would you...

1. not assume that it's Snake's worst MU by far?
2. argue that it can't be a -2?

The results scream, people! Listen a little...

 

[NH Cody]

The MU is probably 55:45 in Marth's favor

................this was literally my first statement on the topic lol. and yes I know Darkflame. I can take an educated guess that you were losing because of a skill difference (aka *how* and *when* you were using your fairs, not how often you used it). Like I said there are a few other moves to use depending on the situation. Marth wins because he has all these options and mixups to stay safe (even on block) vs ICs.

and you keep going on about results but most recent high level Marth vs ICs matches that I know of reflect a slight advantage for Marth (since Marth wins a slight majority of the time).

I never said Marth destroys ICs or that it is "destruction." I just said ICs lose to Marth, which is what you apparently think too

 

[Shaya]

Basically, the only thing that ICs have on Marth is the hard read dash grab.
DeLux agrees, don't bother him about it.

In North America though, MikeHaze and Kadaj both have extremely good records against Ice Climbers.

 

[blacktwins13]

Mario/ lucas beats Zss Hands down

 

[bubbaking]

I just said ICs lose to Marth, which is what you apparently think too

I never said I believe that the MU is -1 (don't assume 55:45 = -1), because the results don't back it up. I'm just saying it's possible, but I'm being realistic.


@Shaya: The other Marths in the world are better than both HAZE and Kadaj, though, and they've lost to ICs in America. Also, which ICs do they have "extremely good records" against?

Edit: My question here is much more important the statement before it actually, I guess.

 

[Shaya]

Kadaj can gloat himself.

I'm basically under the impression that Mike has never lost to an ICs in a tournament set.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Didn't Mikehaze lose to Maize...?

 

[Shaya]

HE LIED TO ME. Or it happened recently.

 

[Cassio]

He lost game 1 as Marth then switched to MK and lost. I think it happened in Octoberish. His placings since summer have suffered a bit, I think that's partially due to his desire to main ICs and would mostly be using them when hed play.

 

[MaizE]

Well he went MK on me game 1 then Marth game 2 lol

 

[bubbaking]

Yeaaah, bottom line is Marth's record against ICs aren't really in favor of a -1.

I'm saying Marth has a solid advantage against ICs. Probably somewhere between -1 and -2.

Definitely not this.

Edit - Question: If ICs' Blizzard out-spaces DDD's ftilt, does it also beat out Marth's aerials?

 

[NH Cody]

bubbaking, you just said that Marth vs ICs is 55:45, and that's what it is, lol

what are you doing

 

[bubbaking]

I said "I believe" it is 55-45. Don't confuse my opinions for fact, lolz. (-_-) The facts are that Marth's results don't support a -anything. I also don't believe that a 55:45 constitutes a -1. You know there are such things as 'hard 0's', right? It's one of the quirks that comes with our ambiguous MU system. You're misunderstanding everything I am saying. I am saying that:

1. Marth's results don't support a -1 for the ICs, let alone a -2.
2. I think the MU could be 55:45 in Marth's favor, but that is my opinion.
3. A 55:45 does not necessarily constitute a -1, and I personally believe it doesn't.

Say, you claim to know a lot about that MU and Marth in general. Riddle me this: Do Marth's aerials out-space DDD's ftilt?

 

[NH Cody]

you can shield the ftilt and fair or DB if that's what you mean...

 

[bubbaking]

No, that's not what I meant. Everyone and their mother can punish DDD's ftilt on shield. It's really not that safe. It's just good because of its range, it comes out fast, it lasts a decently long time, and it ends fairly quickly after the hitbox deactivates. The only problem is that third 'pro' of the move I listed. Having a move that lasts a while (with a single-hit hitbox) is a double-edged sword, because it ALSO means that you will suffer some serious frame disadvantage if the move is shielded early. What I meant was: Do any of Marth's aerials completely out-range DDD's?

No, you really do need to focus, slight timing issues and split second dazes will make you drop grabs. That's how 9b still drops grabs even after maining the character for three years. It's not easy to be consistent.

Really? I thought 9B was famous for talking to his opponent casually while he CG'd him from 0-to-death without dropping anything or even slowing down. Greatest mind-**** if I ever saw one.

And popo can't dthrow solo the whole cast, and you are more than likely to be stuck holding the opponent who can mash out quick because nana is too far. The opponent will more than likely be at a higher % but despite all of this, I do think ICs are a great character & capable of winning nationals, but the focusing(not dropping grabs&use of tripless grabs) is necessary & of course the barrier of entry to play them is high. Also the stage list is a big factor.

Actually, I believe Popo CAN dthrow solo the whole cast (or at least more than three quarters of it). Also, if the ICs is playing on-point, he shouldn't be grabbing his opponent at anything past low %'s very often unless his opponent/opposing char is extremely good at camping/spacing. As such, the Popo dthrow CG should be able to come into play quite numerously. "Use of tripless grabs"? Pretty much all of the ICs' CG techs don't involve running, I thought, unless you're like me and you absolutely can't bthrow infinite or Hobble.

Funny story: While I was dabbling with the ICs a couple years ago, because I couldn't bthrow CG, I figured out how to dthrow with Nana while making Popo run past her and pivot grab the opponent so I could turn around. Completely inferior to the bthrow CG, but it worked.

Edit: Actually, the dthrow CG was the ONLY CG I could perform competently at all.

 

[Dekillsage]

nana can trip when you do bthrow
and some sopo cgs require him to dash I believe

 

[bubbaking]

Why does Nana trip if all you're doing is turning around?

 

[Dekillsage]

she's pivot grabbing

 

[infiniteV115]

Sometimes a single directional input of a certain length/speed will cause Popo to walk and Nana to dash (I know you can desynch this way). However I'm pretty sure it's possible to do tripless CGs including bthrow.
I know for sure that there are tripless CGs, I just don't know if any include bthrow.

(Yes Nana needs to dash in order to trip)

 

[Dekillsage]

The tripless cg's I'm sure are fthrow->Fthrow, Dthrow -> dthrow, dthrow->fthrow, and hobble

I don't think you can make nana not dash/pivot grab when you do bthrow

 

[infiniteV115]

Turn around grabs and pivot grabs are 2 different things btw.
Pivot grabs are when you're turning around during a dash, and then you grab during the dash turnaround.
Turn around grabs are just...turning around and then grabbing.