Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

Yeah, John12346 can probably vouch that I've been whining about Pit's glair forever. The priority on that thing is ridiculous. I think it rivals MK's glair in excellence, although MK is an overall better char. Also, Pit can frame-trap with his glair into a bair to net a kill if you try to dodge the glair. ****'s really stupid, I tell you.....

 

[DMG]

Work up was listed under other options way back in the day IIRC, but it was not recommended for a lot of reasons. Hydreigonis commonly using moves that lower his attackiing stats, so boosting them prior is basically a waste of time. The advantage of Mixed Hydreigon being scary on their switch/hitting strong upfront, because there are way too many scarfed or priority Pokemon that will ruin you for trying to seriously sweep with Work Up lol. In general it's a poor idea to try Work Up (for any Poke) because if you want a boost you can just run a Choice Item or occasionally you already have a different/better setup move on one side. Swords Dance, Nasty Plot. The advantage of being a mixed sweeper or wallbreaker isn't through having access to Work Up. You aren't trying to sweep on both sides, just be threatening enough on both sides that your traditional counters have to be wary of that coverage move that will annihilate them if they predict wrong. Work Up shouldn't really be a viable set on him. The surprise is being able to have Superpower or Outrage in the first place, not being able to boost it up (and slower than Choice items boosts/NP + SD users who boost faster on their particular sides).

Luckily he's a slow Pokemon, can't even reach base 100 speed. Because of that, it doesn't matter if you even got to +6 from Workup. Plenty could revenge kill him. That's why you don't see the set recommended.

 

[bubbaking]

Hydregion is commonly using moves that lower his attackiing stats, so boosting them prior is basically a waste of time. The advantage of Mixed Hydregion is being scary on their switch/hitting strong upfront, because there are way too many scarfed or priority Pokemon that will ruin you for trying to seriously sweep with Work Up lol. In general it's a poor idea to try Work Up because if you want a boost you can just run a Choice Item or occasionally you already have a different/better setup move on one side. Swords Dance, Nasty Plot.

Well, that would be if you're running stat-lowering moves, but I would just say that if you're gonna be running Work Up, then having stat-lowering moves at all is a waste of time. I can see what you're saying, though.

Hydreigon can learn SD and Nasty Plot? Or are you talking about in general?

Edit: Wouldn't Work Up also get rid of your Chansey/Blissey problem, if you wanted something to get rid of them with Hydreigon (Team Preview and all)?

 

[DMG]

Work Up runs counter intuitive to Superpower and Draco Meteor. 2 of his better moves, and basically staple for being a Mixed threat. His movepool is very shallow: what moves would he replace those 2 with? If you replace Draco Meteor with Dragon Pulse, you are effectively running a weaker Latios/Calm Mind sweeper if you want to hit hard on the special side. Latios can try to sweep with Dragon Pulse, backed with CM, in part because he's also a faster Pokemon and because CM will buff his Sp Def. There is NO point running Work Up Hydregion with Dragon Pulse, and running Draco Meteor again is counter intuitive with the Special Drop.


Superpower has NO comparable move. I don't even think he learns Brick Break. He uses Superpower because it's very strong, and because it's Fighting which gets around Tyranitar Blissey etc. That's how he overpowers through some of these Pokemon, because his attack stat is not overwhelming enough for him to be landing neutral coverage blows and win. You can't run Facade or Earthquake or xyz other move and be nearly as effective. This is especially true because Hydregion cannot afford to split his EV's along Attack and SA. He generally needs as much Speed as he can get, or else be otherwise entirely useless (and even then he's fairly easy to outspeed). So you're left with 252 EV's for both stats, can't cover them both, and putting them all into SA makes the most sense for Draco Meteor to hit hard/he's inherently more threatening on the special side to begin with.


Hydreigon can't learn SD or Nasty Plot. The point was that there are mixed sweepers with access to those moves, who are better off using those moves to begin with because they boost quicker. If Infernape wants, he can run Nasty Plot with a back up coverage of Close Combat. No Work Up needed, etc. It's not a great move because those other boosters exist, and because choice items can give you the instant power on the "usual" side (Choice Specs on Hydreigon for example) and you can still run the other side move like Superpower which will hit exactly as hard as a Work Up set before the setup. After the setup, being +1 isn't that helpful because your main purpose in the first place was to surprise them with the move, or to hammer away at them with your main attack like Draco Meteor, and then have the opportunity to respond.


The very fact that Hydreigon HAS Superpower, is more important than his ability to boost it. That's the point of some of these Mixed Attackers: Salamence doesn't need Work Up for Fire Blast to roast Steels. Infernape doesn't need it for Grass Knot to **** a bulky Water. Tyranitar doesn't need it for Ice Beam to randomly **** on Gliscor trying to wall it. Etc. The mixed moveset being present IS the power, IS the draw to using it and succeeding with it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Off-topic: today is Mewtwo's birthday!

On-topic: .... wait, what's current on-topic topic?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Off-topic: today is Mewtwo's birthday!

On-topic: .... wait, what's current on-topic topic?

Today is also the day that I got my name changed into Shiny Mewtwo :D

Since I asked for the change back on Monday, I like to think that the wait was so it could coincide with Mewtwo's Birthday :D

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I tried switching the topic to marth to get some heated discussion but no one seemed interested. All I heard was hes fine where he is and only discuss him if we talk about zss as well. I think they both out performed expectations and should be talked about, but currently mewtwo is more important.

We could always talk about how both jigglypuff and DDD are basically the worst characters in the game. At least that is what these boards seem to think.

Also my apologies shiny mewtwo for not recognizing the sword. That sounds even more uber. Maybe even ban worthy. Mewtwo with a transcendent sword is probably broken...

 

[bubbaking]

Anyone who thinks DDD is anywhere close to being something like that needs to have his head examined. Less so if he simply thinks that DDD isn't High Tier, but all the same, he's crazy.....IMO. Jigglypuff being the worst, I'm fine with though.

Edit: To anyone who thinks that DDD is a bad character, "I'M GONNA RUB YA OUT!!!"

 

[pidgezero_one]

Since today was my anniversary with Red X, can we talk about how Ness is underrated? \o/

 

[bubbaking]

Congrats! May your relationship know the true meaning of PK Love.

Edit: Oh crap, wrong character.....

Edit 2: Uh, may your relationship be.......Rockin.....

 

[PK Gaming]

Lolz, wow, no need to overreact like that.

It's quite alright, I tend to fly off the handle but I rarely mean the aggression. You're wrong btw, I did mention Work Up. It's in the additional comments of the 2nd set.

@DMG's posts

either you secretly have a smogon account, play a lot of pokemon behind the scenes or you're a savant when in regards to anything competitive. ****sucking aside, everything you posted in response to bubba was on the mark.

I'd wish Mewtwo a happy birthday

but I resent it

so it just gets a "birthday" from me

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Edit: To anyone who thinks that DDD is a bad character, "I'M GONNA RUB YA OUT!!!"

Dedede is an awful character who is essentially carried by a BAir and CG.

Oversimplified but w/e.


Ness is largely held back by a lame GR in a ton of MUs. Sure it's far from his only problem in most MUs, but it does take a few from "managable" to "please god kill me".


Thread needs more Ninten discussion imo. PK Beam for best special in game.

 

[PK Gaming]

I dropped Ness as a main a couple of days after the GR shenanigans were discovered

I didn't need the baggage, though I wasn't really serious with Ness in the first place (Pit / Wario main). From what i've read though, Ness is plagued by more than just a ****ty GR, he seems like he's limited at punishing people outside of FAIR, and his specials are ****ing awful.

Too bad he can't be good in any smash game like in Earthbound.

Thread needs more Ninten discussion imo. PK Beam for best special in game.

Ninten doesn't learn PK Beam!!!

 

[pidgezero_one]

I said "underrated", not "good".


@ bubba: Thanks, and lmao no worries, we've totally teamed as dual lucas in the past (not trolling)

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, Ness is quite good at aerial CQC (I'd leave this up to the Ness mains to defend themselves but where the heck are they?). He's a slippery guy and is really good at slipping aerials in here and there. He's also got some really reliable killers in his bthrow and bair and some less reliable killers in his uair and dair meteor. His greatest weakness, after the GR, is probably the ease with which a bunch of characters can potentially gimp him.

Edit: Like, how is G&W vs Ness not a +3? G&W out-spaces him, can play the cheap ledge-game all day, and he just absolutely shuts down Ness's recovery (while gaining a kill move from it in the process). Sometimes, he can completely fill that bucket with just one gimp. ****'s real in that MU, I tell you.

 

[-LzR-]

Edit: Like, how is G&W vs Ness not a +3? G&W out-spaces him, can play the cheap ledge-game all day, and he just absolutely shuts down Ness's recovery (while gaining a kill move from it in the process). Sometimes, he can completely fill that bucket with just one gimp. ****'s real in that MU, I tell you.

Oh it's this "bucket the recovery, +3" mindset again. Ness doesn't lose to GW. -1 at worst. His aerialgame more than makes up for it and Bthrow is a huge deal against GW. Don't forget Ness also has this thing called double jump and airspeed that are pretty damn good when combined with is retardedly good aerial moveset. Most likely he doesn't even need to use upB.

 

[Kewkky]

Edit: Like, how is G&W vs Ness not a +3? G&W out-spaces him, can play the cheap ledge-game all day, and he just absolutely shuts down Ness's recovery (while gaining a kill move from it in the process). Sometimes, he can completely fill that bucket with just one gimp. ****'s real in that MU, I tell you.

Maybe because the entire MU isn't played off-stage? Also, compromises between the Ness and the G&W community, pretty much. I can't really say any more since neither of them are in my area of expertise.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And that's why you don't talk about Mus you don't know....
Like me talking about ICs vs DK.....

 

[Luco]

How.......do you manage that?

Sucumbio and Kewkky pretty much summed it up. Get them off-stage with GRs if you have 'em, otherwise try and bait them or something like mario's FLUDD or something like that.

chain grab-releases? and edge hogging? and stuff?

Spoiler

and be ****ed up on something to think of that in the first damn place lol

Yeah that's a big part of it.

And yea, it seems pretty crazy in retrospect but it's still pretty hilarious when you actually get that kill and survive. :3

Jump offstage and pretend to not be able to recover, and bait the other guy to try and footstool you. Then footstool THEM.

Or kirbycide.

Yes, yes yes. Or dedede or ganoncide. But if ganon cide is onstage.... ohhh that's bad. Our rule was, if one person damaged the other, they automatically lost.

LUCO NEEDS TO HAVE SOME POUTINE OR I WON'T LOVE HIM ANYMORE

But Jewish... and Australian... D=

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

but I resent it

I simply can't understand this mentality.

In serious tier list related talk, I think Falco and Snake are even enough that they should be in the same tier grouping. I don't think Falco is quite good enough yet to be a whole tier above Marth, especially after Marth's surprising Apex results, so I think Snake should drop down into B tier.

 

[Dekillsage]

I simply can't understand this mentality.

In serious tier list related talk, I think Falco and Snake are even enough that they should be in the same tier grouping. I don't think Falco is quite good enough yet to be a whole tier above Marth, especially after Marth's surprising Apex results, so I think Snake should drop down into B tier.

woah woah woah woah
Let's not be too hasty

 

[Shaya]

Zeus Tier: (100%)


Augustus Caesar Tier:
Olimar (70%), Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Marth, Falco (69.2%)

Deposed Titan Tier
Snake (68.3333), Zero Suit Aphrodite (68.2%), Wario, Pikachu (49%)

Sicily Tier
Dedede (25%), Lucario, Toon Link, Fox, Wolf (1.33%)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol marth in olimar tier.

good one.

 

[1PokeMastr]

And that's why you don't talk about Mus you don't know....
Like me talking about ICs vs DK.....

ICs vs Dk is -2 for Dk.
Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[DMG]

@DMG's posts

either you secretly have a smogon account, play a lot of pokemon behind the scenes or you're a savant when in regards to anything competitive. ****sucking aside, everything you posted in response to bubba was on the mark.

I did a lot of laddering in the DPPt days, was my best Gen for awhile. Got a bit past top 50 and realized people grinded wayyyy more than I wanted to (if anyone remembers the guy at #1 for like, a year+ on the ladder, he had 3 times the games played of #2 #3 and #4 per day. ****in ridiculous). Plus I liked to run "funner" team comps. I BADLY WANTED Machamp on my team because why the **** not, No Guard Dynamic Punch is the ****! Same with Jolteon and Gengar... I had to cut some of that out, and ran the more popular **** like Salamence/Latias when they were legal, Heatran/Rotom-H/etc that was everywhere. Azelf leads took over, then someone decided to be an *** and run bulky Heatran/Metagross/etc as leads. Thats when Machamp got a bit more solid for leading, but I never could manage to make him super useful vs comps of that day. Half the time, he would only pull through due to ridiculous bad luck for the opponent on the confusion rolls lol.


Explosion was a ****in ***** in DPPt. Why couldn't they nerf it a Gen early?!?!? a9hsd9ad89


Anyways, I've done every Gen competitively but DPPt definitely has been my favorite so far. ADV got really interesting as well. BW/BW2 have been ok... a few things have made it not as fun. I don't mind Weather that much, because it tends to make the other player really predictable especially with Team Preview, and I don't mind Weather wars of switching around to change the weather either (this is very good for stall teams/teams with Dugtrio trap). The only thing I dislike is that people take it as a free ticket to use the same "general" strategy and get it boosted for free. Mostly Rain, it's a little easy to set up Drizzle and them auto launch Surf/Hydro Pump/etc. Or something is scarfed and spams under Rain: even if you throw out the appropriate answer you are forced to move second and occasionally people just outright power through everything but the strictest checks. How many Rain teams have a Keldeo? Too many is the right answer.


I love the buffs to Fighting Pokemon, I love Techniloom and I will run it until I die LOL. Walling stuff with Gliscor is really borrrrringggggg I don't understand why people want to play Pokemon and wall stuff instead of attack! Offense gogogo so much funner. BW2 may have too much of that though, everything hits like a *****.


(and to clarify, I mostly mean OU and Ubers. I didn't do GSC Ubers and rarely touched ADV Ubers, but OU and Ubers for both 4th and 5th Gen along with OU for every Gen)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its funny to me that the guy who wants to do nothing but be offensive with hand to hand characters in the turn based rpb game is the same guy who wants to play wario and avoid conflict for 8 minutes on brinstar in the actual fighting game

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

lol marth in olimar tier.

good one.

You do have to admit that marth did out place every character except mk and zss at apex. and marth was tied with ice climbers for most rep in top 32 after mk (Not sure if 32 is the right number but I'm sure bubba will correct my bracket numbers for me if its not 32.) All of the rest of top and high tier only had 2 placings at most.

why do you keep taking about zss needing to rise but marth is a joke? Marth easily did the third best at apex behind mk and zss. I feel that both greatly exceeded expectations and should be talked about. I think its silly to only respect one of the two's performances.

 

[DMG]

That's different, it's Brawl. Melee I like to go in, Street Fighter I play Zangief, etc

 

[Shaya]

lol marth in olimar tier.

good one.

Snake sucks. Olimar sucks but not as much.

Marth sucks somewhere in between.
The good thing is Marth beats everyone in his tier +1.
TOURNAMENT RESULTS BACK IT UP.

Except maybe against Falco. We lose to Falco. Fine.

 

[Dekillsage]

We're actually talking about tier list stuff? Lemme throw in my thoughts

Top:
High Tier:

Results don't really agree though.

 

[DMG]

IC's in 6th does not settle well with me...

 

[Dekillsage]

To be honest other than MK I think the top tiers aren't really that much better than each other. My opinion on diddy kong might change in the future though. At the moment I don't know whether or not I'm overrating him.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wtf is ****ty *** rob doing above up there?

 

[Dekillsage]

Being high tier

 

[bubbaking]

And that's why you don't talk about Mus you don't know....
Like me talking about ICs vs DK.....

Lolz, G&W is my secondary and I play against a Ness all the time.

 

[infiniteV115]

Why the **** is ROB above Pikachu LOL

 

[Dekillsage]

Because I don't think pikachu is that good.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Olimar is at least 3rd. No character can force an approach like he can

 

[bubbaking]

Falco.

10Falcocks.

 

[bubbaking]

This computer is literally making me double-post from one click. Ugh!