Official BBR Tier List v7

[Tesh]

z catching takes no time at all, i do this all the time

 

[da K.I.D.]

Dark peach and everyone seriously responding to tesh needs to stop getting trolled

Ivysaur only saving grace as a character is that shes connected to two better characters.

 

[PK Gaming]

Back then ZSS was just all side-b.

Brawl went from a Melee-esque/more traditional fighting game ideal (these moves wall out, these moves when you use are good to approach) to
punishment
punishment
PUNISHMENT.

ZSS is a great punisher but a terrible approacher and an above average to excellent waller.

The only characters in brawl's early history that actually had an approach were... MK, Falco, Snake and maybe Marth. As in, everyone with a good dash attack or roll. Sad times, right?

oh wow (i love your use of caps btw)

I think the same can honestly be said about our community back on smogon, and our stance on certain Pokemon. We were ok with things like Blaziken, Deoxys-S & Excadrill at first, but it took us a while to realize how utterly broken they were.

EDIT: from a non smash player, items seem very, very, very dumb to me since they randomly spawn in addition to silly **** like explosion chance from capsules. (so if someone gets like a capsule while you're recovering... sigh)

 

[Luco]

Yeah, Sonic is ridiculous with items too, especially with the Smashball loool

My character has one big useful thing he can do with items.

But it's useful as heck. :3

Yay the item jump!

Who says it's broken? Some peopple didn't even say it s the best team

I'll go ahead and praise my main here again and say that while he isn't absolute top, Lucas (and Ness, too, for mostly the same reasons) in doubles is definitely high/top tier in doubles. I know it sounds like crazy fanboyism but think about it: Most of Lucas' weaknesses are covered for in teams (GR issues, range, etc.), plus he has the ability to go all out and come back for the heal when he wants. It's why Mekos and Shaky get consistently high placings with their chars in doubles.

lmao

that must have pissed you off

also Zelda being in the low 20s baffled the hell out of me, she seemed really bad... even from a casual's perspective.

Not to me, actually. I could tell Ganon wasn't exactly the greatest (though I was so clueless back then that with enough reasoning and vids I could have believed it!) but Zelda seemed pretty broken to me at the time: She had a spammable sideB (and when you're a casual player you usually don't think about how many moves beat it out and you're worried about your shield getting broken and you never AD at quite the right time and it stresses you out when you git hit and so on...), her recovery issues never seemed as bad or indeed non-existent (because we didn't really know how to edge-guard properly) and she had a heck-ton of strong and annoying smashes she could throw out at any time (because back then we weren't thinking about 'approaching' or 'camping' or 'retreating', we just... did what we did). I dunno, from a casual perspective I always thought zelda was pretty decent.

Let's see... ZSS, Samus, Ivysaur, Olimar, Ice Climbers, Link, Toon Link, Lucas...

I think ZSS's tether recovery(ies) are the best, IMO. SideB and upB both are tether recoveries, and you can use them in conjunction to get an opponent off the ledge and survive (if you already lost your downB).

This is definitely an area where my character falls down in. His tether recovery extends his hurtboxes in such a way that if you have the correct timing, you can almost just hit his snake and murder him. @.@

not if i just...throw it back at you or re tether.

Wouldn't this be dependent on where ivy originally used upB to the ledge? I just mean, if she's really close then I could maybe see this happening but at her longest reach, catching to re-tether sounds a bit ridiculous... :/

Also, this thread got locked and i'm annoyed at the spam that went on for pages before it happened, even if the jessie-james-meowth gifs/pics made me laugh.

 

[Tesh]

You guys know tethering will pop most characters up. Ivysaur and Olimar get a little "hop" as they grab the ledge with the tether. When they let go they are higher than where they initiated the move. If there wasn't a tether limit coded into the game, they would both be able to just hover there.

 

[Luco]

You guys know tethering will pop most characters up. Ivysaur and Olimar get a little "hop" as they grab the ledge with the tether. When they let go they are higher than where they initiated the move. If there wasn't a tether limit coded into the game, they would both be able to just hover there.

Yeah but even then, wouldn't it take immense timing to catch the item and re-tether?

 

[Tesh]

there is no animation for catching items in the air...

if ivy has to use one of her long as **** aerials then yea this would not work, but everyone can just z catch and do whatever they want

 

[bubbaking]

As much as I hate the japanese rulesets, I am a huge advocate of their scrooging rule and IDC/EDC rule

Scrooging rule: Can't travel under the stage twice in a row without landing on a non-moving part of the stage in between. Prevents typical SV scrooging and forces MK onto the stage rather than just grabbing the edge over and over.

IDC/EDC rule: Can't extend it for more than 10 seconds and once it has been extended, you can't use it again until you have been hit.

What does "IDC/EDC" stand for? Also, extend what?

 

[Luco]

IDC = Infinite cape glitch
EDC = Extended cape glitch

Thought you of all people would be one to know hehe. :3

 

[bubbaking]

What? Why me?

 

[Luco]

Look at your post-bit.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, you mean that character which I never bothered to learn ATs for.

ZSS has a better overall recovery (just by being a better overall character), but Samus having the longest Zair makes it alot safer since you can airdodge then grab the ledge. ZSS can be trapped at times when she can't airdodge because it would drop her too low.

Actually, I'd argue that Samus has a better overall recovery for reasons Kewkky stated as well as reasons I'm going to state below. ZSS is a better character, yes, but she's not beating Samus in the survival or recovery department.

I guess the range of it, her super slow fallspeed, and her downB stalling tactics could help her get back on-stage from far away. She's no melee Samus, she was almost ungimpable on her first launch from the stage back then. Samus can't use her tether recovery from below the stage though, and ZSS's upB has a longer reach than it seems. In terms of versatility, ZSS's tether recoveries are probably the best.

I think Samus' tether recovery is "overall" better than ZSS' because she has better actions to compliment it. Samus can use her tether from pretty far below the ledge and even if she's directly below the ledge, she can 'chase' the opponent off the ledge with the threat of her upB, which will stage-spike, and she can maintain that threat through bomb stalling. Once you edgehog ZSS when she's below the ledge (without a jump) she's dead. Even if she takes you with her through an upB spike, she's still dying. Of course, Samus also has Razor Leaf 2.0 a.k.a. Homing Missiles, plus all the things you said.

 

[Luco]

Why do you have him as your post-bit then? Genuinely curious.

 

[Delta-cod]

The same reason I have him there.

 

[Luco]

This explains nothing.

 

[bubbaking]

I've answered that question before, and surprisingly, it was for you.

I think the same can honestly be said about our community back on smogon, and our stance on certain Pokemon. We were ok with things like Blaziken, Deoxys-S & Excadrill at first, but it took us a while to realize how utterly broken they were.

Deoxys-S ISN'T broken, and that was expressed very clearly on Smogon when his ban was explained. He was over-centralizing, which is very different from being broken. Blaziken, Excadrill, and maybe even Sand Veil Garchomp and Thundurus, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that they're "broken", but it was obvious that Deo-s wasn't on that level, hence why he was the last Pokemon to be banned before BW2.

from a non smash player, items seem very, very, very dumb to me since they randomly spawn in addition to silly **** like explosion chance from capsules. (so if someone gets like a capsule while you're recovering... sigh)

Why is a competitive Pokemon player complaining about something dependent upon random chance?

 

[swordgard]

You are not paying attention to what I am telling you.

You can NOT Zgrab items as you tether.

Tesh: Ivysaur can vine whip from sofar away he can swing into the lower blast zone. He is nearly unstoppable off stage.[I/]

"Peach, Diddy and ZSS can Zdrop that as you do it and you drop to your death."

Your counter for this: "Tether cancel, z catch (throw if needed) and re-tether before you know what happened."


Why this fails:
Implying as you tether low, there is an item falling on you. Last I check, you are NOT invincible while hanging. Only when you crab the ledge. And you have about 26 frames ( if I remember correctly) of invincibility frames. As you tether near the ledge and pick yourself up, you are open until the character physically grabs the ledge. That' s what the item is there to prevent.

Your counter for this: "Tether cancel, z catch (throw if needed) and re-tether before you know what happened."

You are putting yourself in more danger then you already were. To Z drop and then throw it takes was too much time and you are falling. By the time you try this I ether grab the ledge in time or you too far off for your up-B to make it avoiding the item you tossed and me and you dropping to your death. Worst case is you would get hit by the item. Mainly because of this rule:

"And you have about 26 frames ( if I remember correctly) of invincibility frames." The max frames of invincibility a character gains when they grab the ledge and let go is 21. When you tether and let go of the ledge you do NOT have any invinc frames as you let go.

So your lil counter measure for this would get you killed.

The real issue is how would peach send anyone at such a bad angle. Diddy maybe and zss can maybe too, but peach, there is simply no way that would happen often lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Uh, from what other Peaches (like Nicole) have told me, being hit by a turnip sends one downwards and sideways. That's a pretty bad angle...

 

[swordgard]

I doubt any turnip would send ivy far enough to get edgehogged reliably lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, since we're being practical here (and not just being blatant perfect theorycrafters), it's reasonable to believe that most chars can simply hit Ivy out of his DJ, and since the origin of this whole debate was the simple statement that Ivy's recovery isn't that bad, I think we can conclude that it, in fact, IS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

iirc, turnips have like no knoback but some hitstun. Normal turnips don't send characters anywhere (maybe backwards a little?), they just keep falling.
I might be wrong, don't quote me on that.

EDIT: from a non smash player, items seem very, very, very dumb to me since they randomly spawn in addition to silly **** like explosion chance from capsules. (so if someone gets like a capsule while you're recovering... sigh)

Selective Item Ruelset, non-intrusive, not randomness that changes games.
It was worked on for a while, but some people went agaisnt it waaaay too hard that it simply was crushed to death. It wasn't bad, but this community have the idea that they have to stop everyone else from doing something different from the standard.....

 

[PK Gaming]

I've answered that question before, and surprisingly, it was for you.



Deoxys-S ISN'T broken, and that was expressed very clearly on Smogon when his ban was explained. He was over-centralizing, which is very different from being broken. Blaziken, Excadrill, and maybe even Sand Veil Garchomp and Thundurus, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that they're "broken", but it was obvious that Deo-s wasn't on that level, hence why he was the last Pokemon to be banned before BW2.



Why is a competitive Pokemon player complaining about something dependent upon random chance?

I'm not sure how you wanna define it, but Deoxys-S was pretty broken, just trust me on that one. I don't think even got to overcentralize the meta, since nobody use it. It was mostly ignored until a bunch of players started spamming deo-s on tournaments, and at it was at time we realize "oh, you're broken"

&

lol

Selective Item Ruelset, non-intrusive, not randomness that changes games.
It was worked on for a while, but some people went agaisnt it waaaay too hard that it simply was crushed to death. It wasn't bad, but this community have the idea that they have to stop everyone else from doing something different from the standard.....

ok that makes sense

 

[-LzR-]

Turnips do have a little bit of knockback. Obviously a stronger turnips is also very useful for edgeguarding. Against someone like Ivy a single turnip can easily mean death.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not sure how you wanna define it, but Deoxys-S was pretty broken, just trust me on that one. I don't think even got to overcentralize the meta, since nobody use it. It was mostly ignored until a bunch of players started spamming deo-s on tournaments, and at it was at time we realize "oh, you're broken"

I play competitive Pokemon too (or at least, I used to until right after BW2 came out and those dumb Kyurem dragons entered the scene). As I understood it, the only major problem with Deo-S was that he was guaranteed two entry hazards (more if you didn't kill him immediately). If he really wanted to, he could run an offensive set, but he was better off just laying hazards. Even with Team Preview, no one could really stop him from doing his job, even if you KNEW he was going to lead. He was possibly one of the most one-dimensional pokes in the metagame in that you could identify exactly what he was going to do and what you should do to stop him, but you couldn't actually stop him. He was going to get away with what he wanted, even if it was just filling his role as a suicide lead.

Tbh, this was no worse than the problem Kyogre posed in Ubers for a time. He's not actually super-broken because he really isn't that versatile (the Pokemon gets countered by Quagmire and Ferrothorn for heaven's sake), but he's so common-place and devastating when his strategy works that every team is practically forced to have a direct answer to him. One of the major PO servers (PBC, I believe) even had Kyogre banned from Ubers for a time. That's how over-centralizing he was and that's what Deo-S threatened to do to OU's metagame if they left him in.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

yeah ivy gets gimped by a light wind

 

[bubbaking]

Ivy gets gimped at 0, lolz!

 

[Luco]

Ivy gets gimped at 0, lolz!

My brother and I recently had matches where the aim was to take the other's stock without damaging them at all. I actually did it a few times. :D

 

[bubbaking]

How.......do you manage that?

 

[Sucumbio]

chain grab-releases? and edge hogging? and stuff?

Spoiler

and be ****ed up on something to think of that in the first damn place lol

 

[Kewkky]

Jump offstage and pretend to not be able to recover, and bait the other guy to try and footstool you. Then footstool THEM.

Or kirbycide.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Just want to point out something: Ivy also gimps you. It doesn't work on everyone, but Ivy has a really good edgeguarding game.

 

[bubbaking]

If it doesn't work on everyone, it's not good enough, since everyone can feasibly gimp her.

 

[PK Gaming]

I play competitive Pokemon too (or at least, I used to until right after BW2 came out and those dumb Kyurem dragons entered the scene). As I understood it, the only major problem with Deo-S was that he was guaranteed two entry hazards (more if you didn't kill him immediately). If he really wanted to, he could run an offensive set, but he was better off just laying hazards. Even with Team Preview, no one could really stop him from doing his job, even if you KNEW he was going to lead. He was possibly one of the most one-dimensional pokes in the metagame in that you could identify exactly what he was going to do and what you should do to stop him, but you couldn't actually stop him. He was going to get away with what he wanted, even if it was just filling his role as a suicide lead.

Yeah, you're completely right. In the end it was a broken Pokemon, why do you care about the definition I use.

Tbh, this was no worse than the problem Kyogre posed in Ubers for a time. He's not actually super-broken because he really isn't that versatile (the Pokemon gets countered by Quagmire and Ferrothorn for heaven's sake), but he's so common-place and devastating when his strategy works that every team is practically forced to have a direct answer to him. One of the major PO servers (PBC, I believe) even had Kyogre banned from Ubers for a time. That's how over-centralizing he was and that's what Deo-S threatened to do to OU's metagame if they left him in.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. For starters, Kyogre is actually pretty damn versatile. Its sets range from Choice Specs (which outright 2hkoes with water spout) to Scarf, CM, defensive, general attacker etc. It's pretty much the ultimate support Pokemon in Ubers; rain stops a lot of pokemon from being "annoying" (Reshiram) and at the same time it makes a ton of pokemon of "annoying" (Kabutops, Ludicolo, Palkia) in return.

It's not a 1 dimensional thats always stopped with the same pokemon (BTW, nobody good uses Quagsire in Ubers because its ****ing awful, Kyogre checks & counters are Latias, Arceus-Grass, Ferrothorn, Luddicolo and Palkia.) and some of them fall to different sets. Unlike Deo-S, Kyogre practically defines the Ubers metagame, its that good. Deoxys-S was just a broken Pokemon... you can use whatever description you to describe it, but you can't compare it to Kyogre, they're as different as night and day. The only really we don't do anything about Kyogre is because Ubers is a banlist. Same with Arceus, (who imo is the MK of that tier. Everybody good resorts to using Arceus its that ****ing strong). A lot of people actually wanted it banned early on, but that movement fizzled out.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The real issue is how would peach send anyone at such a bad angle. Diddy maybe and zss can maybe too, but peach, there is simply no way that would happen often lol.

You do realize peach is one of the best edge guarders in the game right? Also if ivy was to recover as in that troll example, Peach can turnip cancel off the ledge to zdrop and grab it. If I sense a double jump or force it, I can turnip cancel zdrop to float and stall near the ledge, then grab it.

Or i can turnip cancel and toss the turnip upward, then grab the ledge. let go of the ledge to an instant float and be invincible for 21 frames and grab the ledge as soon as I let go of jump. There is till a turnip that is falling down to cover me and will most likely hit them.

But this does not really correct the point of your post so I'll get on that now. If ivy is hit buy a turnip as low as in that troll example, I have enough time to regrab the ledge. The player will just fall back and down a lil. Now this applied with the few edgeguard examples I made, i can quickly regrab the ledge faster then any charcter in the game. tap down to instant float then let go of it right away and peach will grab it as soon as you stop floating.

Mix and match this with other creative ways of edgeguarding and this position for ivy is hella risky.

 

[bubbaking]

I thought this argument would be over the moment people realized that Peach could just grab the edge out of float at any time to get her ledge invincibility at the perfect moment. Grab ledge while Ivy Razor Leafs or bairs (if he fairs, he severely risks just getting hit), then float and refresh the invincibility, dropping a turnip or whatever while you're at it. Not that hard, people...

That couldn't be farther from the truth. For starters, Kyogre is actually pretty damn versatile. Its sets range from Choice Specs (which outright 2hkoes with water spout) to Scarf, CM, defensive, general attacker etc. It's pretty much the ultimate support Pokemon in Ubers; rain stops a lot of pokemon from being "annoying" (Reshiram) and at the same time it makes a ton of pokemon of "annoying" (Kabutops, Ludicolo, Palkia) in return.

Ubers was actually the first tier that I started playing competitively. To me, Kyogre didn't really seem that flexible (as in there wasn't much variation between movesets, EV spreads, etc). Mewtwo's the flexible one. For me, if you're flexible, you don't get walled reliably by an easy-to-make prediction on what your moveset is. Still, Kyogre is the God of Pokemon for a reason. It's really a moot point whether he's 'flexible' or not.

(BTW, nobody good uses Quagsire in Ubers because its ****ing awful, Kyogre checks & counters are Latias, Arceus-Grass, Ferrothorn, Luddicolo and Palkia.)

Somebody never played DPP Ubers. Quagsire was, like, one of the best Kyogre checks/counters back then. Even now, I would imagine that Quagsire's new ability, Unaware, would cause him to be a force to be reckoned with for the likes of CM Kyogre (maybe Specs too, but I'm not sure if Unaware blocks those kinds of buffs). Not sure how Quagsire suddenly stopped being an Ogre check.

Unlike Deo-S, Kyogre practically defines the Ubers metagame, its that good. Deoxys-S was just a broken Pokemon... you can use whatever description you to describe it, but you can't compare it to Kyogre, they're as different as night and day.

Alright, I can agree with this, but I still don't think Deo-S was that broken. Any strong poke with a priority move (e.g. Scizor, Terrakion, etc) could limit his number of entry hazard lays to just one. He really isn't any more "broken" than Toed and TTar are in OU.

Edit: In case you didn't notice, I'm also pro-weather ban, despite practically all my teams being rain and sun teams (with a couple sun and hail, and like, one weatherless).

The only really we don't do anything about Kyogre is because Ubers is a banlist. Same with Arceus, (who imo is the MK of that tier. Everybody good resorts to using Arceus its that ****ing strong). A lot of people actually wanted it banned early on, but that movement fizzled out.

Actually, as I understood it, Ubers has so many Pokemon now (and has clearly developed its own metagame) that people have started talking about treating the tier as, well, it's own completely legitimate competitive tier. That would explain why PBC banned Ogre from Ubers at some point in the past and it lends one to believe that similar bans might actually happen in the future. Who knows?

 

[swordgard]

Peach simply has very few tools to send at an angle required to start edgeguarding against any good character, everything simply sends way too much upward.

I mean it's always possible if your opponent messes up badly to hit with a situational that might lead to a gimp, but you can't generalize from there and say it will happen often.

 

[bubbaking]

You could also generalize and say that Ivy will never end up offstage. Even if everything is DI'd high, what exactly are Ivy's recovery options? Peach could edgeguard a high recovery fairly effectively, couldn't she?

 

[blacktwins13]

Bombs, Beamsword, Mr.Saturn, Stitchface, Trollface... nuff said
LUCO NEEDS TO HAVE SOME POUTINE OR I WON'T LOVE HIM ANYMORE

 

[infiniteV115]

Suitpieces. GG.

 

[DMG]

@Quagsire talk: he was sometimes used as a Kyogre check in DPPt, but he's a heavy liability in BW due to how offensive teams are. He's setup bait outside of "countering" Kyogre, and gets exploited as such.


As for Unaware, the problem is that Quagsire only does well vs Kyogre because he can block Water attacks with Water Absorb. When you block a Water attack from Kyogre, you stop his STAB AND his Drizzle benefit and then he's forced to use Ice Beam which only hits for neutral and is only a 4HKO (assuming no boosts yet, still the point is forcing Ice Beam and dealing with Kyogre through Toxic or Encore). If you run Unaware, Kyogre will hit you so incredibly hard with a Water attack that it doesn't matter whether you negate his Specs or CM boosts. Unaware Quagsire, in the rain, will easily be 2HKO'd by Timid non boosted Surf (and I'm talking Max HP/Sp Def EV's + Boosting Nature Quag). If you try to switch into him based off this and eat a Surf or Spout coming in, you're basically dead. If you want to Encore or Toxic, you're dead. Etc.


Kyogre is that ridiculously powerful in the Rain, and Pokemon that tend to handle him well are the ones with resistances to Water. Quagsire will lose that if you choose Unaware, so it's pointless.