Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

The real problem with Unaware Quagsire (and even Water Absorb Quagsire, to an extent) in BW is that he can't handle suitpieces.

 

[Meru.]

Peach simply has very few tools to send at an angle required to start edgeguarding against any good character, everything simply sends way too much upward.

I mean it's always possible if your opponent messes up badly to hit with a situational that might lead to a gimp, but you can't generalize from there and say it will happen often.

Yeah, most of her harder hitting attacks have this '361 degrees' knockback, which basically means that the higher their %s, the higher her moves will send her opponent. It sucks because it makes it harder to kill - as they would be dying sooner if they were sent horizontally - and harder to edgeguard her opponents since they're not near the ledge, which is exactly where Peach can edgeguard them a bit.

Lazy developers :l

 

[swordgard]

The real problem with Unaware Quagsire (and even Water Absorb Quagsire, to an extent) in BW is that he can't handle suitpieces.

I mean look at his hands.

 

[bubbaking]

Look at his eyes.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ubers was actually the first tier that I started playing competitively. To me, Kyogre didn't really seem that flexible (as in there wasn't much variation between movesets, EV spreads, etc). Mewtwo's the flexible one. For me, if you're flexible, you don't get walled reliably by an easy-to-make prediction on what your moveset is. Still, Kyogre is the God of Pokemon for a reason. It's really a moot point whether he's 'flexible' or not.

You should have been using his sets outside of choiced then. Kyogre is crazy flexible, arguably even more flexible than Mewtwo (who has 2-3 sets at most).

Somebody never played DPP Ubers. Quagsire was, like, one of the best Kyogre checks/counters back then. Even now, I would imagine that Quagsire's new ability, Unaware, would cause him to be a force to be reckoned with for the likes of CM Kyogre (maybe Specs too, but I'm not sure if Unaware blocks those kinds of buffs). Not sure how Quagsire suddenly stopped being an Ogre check.

Oi, are you out of your mind? Quagsire without Water Absorb can't touch Kyogre!

252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Quagsire in rain: 421-496 (106.85 - 125.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In case you wanted to know, Water Absorb quagsire didn't stop being a Kyogre check, its just a ****ing terrible Pokemon in BW Ubers, and there are far better Kyogre checks (Latias, Arceus Grass, etc).

Edit: In case you didn't notice, I'm also pro-weather ban, despite practically all my teams being rain and sun teams (with a couple sun and hail, and like, one weatherless).

Weather is pretty dumb, yeah. It's largely the reason why BW OU is ****ing terrible right now z_z

Actually, as I understood it, Ubers has so many Pokemon now (and has clearly developed its own metagame) that people have started talking about treating the tier as, well, it's own completely legitimate competitive tier. That would explain why PBC banned Ogre from Ubers at some point in the past and it lends one to believe that similar bans might actually happen in the future. Who knows?

Yeah people brought this issue up a long time ago. There was a large pro-ban Arceus movement, which resulted in the discussion of whether Ubers should be treated like regular tier. Ultimately that resistance was squashed (no banning ubers... ever) but people still treat it like a tier, and it's fairly represented in tournaments and such.

 

[bubbaking]

You should have been using his sets outside of choiced then. Kyogre is crazy flexible, arguably even more flexible than Mewtwo (who has 2-3 sets at most).

You're arguably crazy. Kyogre may hit harder than Mewtwo but there's no way he has the flexibility of Mewtwo simply going by the movesets available to each of them.

Edit: I read the rest of your post, and maybe you're not so crazy, but suggesting that Mewtwo only has "2-3 sets at most" is nothing short of insane.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

The real problem with Unaware Quagsire (and even Water Absorb Quagsire, to an extent) in BW is that he can't handle suitpieces.

maybe we should be discussing moving zss up to uber tier if there are no Quagsire sets that can counter her. That does seem a little over centralizing...

 

[bubbaking]

@PK Gaming: I hope you aren't just going by the "Suggested Sets" on Smogon, because Smogon is historically bad at listing all (or even half) of the competitive options available to a Pokemon. Lolz, thanks to Smogon's suggestions, Hydreigon was UU for a time because everyone thought, "Lolz, why run Mixed when we can just go all-in with Special? " Thanks to this mentality, Hydreigons were outright walled by Blisseys and Chanseys, despite having great mixed attacking stats + movepool.

In fact, as a personal example, when I was just getting into 5th gen competitive gaming in OU tier (after playing in Ubers for a while), I asked on Smogon's chat room why everyone kept running solely Specially Offensive Hydregion when he had such great mixed attacking stats. The response from practically everyone: "Lol, are you ********? Why are you wasting your time giving Hydreigon physical moves when his specA stat is literally all he'll ever need? Stop trolling noob." At that point, I just put Blissey on my team and literally NEVER had trouble with a Hydreigon again. A little while later, Hydreigon sank from OU into UU tier because 'special walls checked Hydreigon too hard'. Needless to say, the moment people realized that Hydreigon actually had good physical attacks, he rose back into OU tier, and I'm pretty sure he's there to stay.

The moral of the story: Competitive Pokemon players (I'm not saying you're included) seem to follow a 'pack mentality' and Smogon just serves to fuel the fire and guide their actions, shaping the trends of the future with their "recommended sets". This is part of why I'm still somewhat doubtful on whether Deo-S was actually full-on banworthy or not (although I DO agree that he was potentially over-centralizing).

 

[Iota]

lol Smogonites.

Why is Kyurem-B still OU? Discuss.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Turnips were super nerfed from Melee so they don't guarantee Death when you hit people with them offstage with them anymore.

 

[Iota]

I would think that's more over because of the decreased gravity/better recoveries in brawl; rather then turnips themselves getting nerfed. Probably missing your point though.

 

[bubbaking]

So I'm checking out Smogon's recommended sets, and I see that Ogre does indeed have 'more' sets, but they all recycle mostly the same moves with the differences being in the held item used (makes sense; Ogre can use Choice stuff, lefties, LO, etc. while Mewtwo is a little more restricted in this area), but Mewtwo's have much more variation in the moves utilized. Not only that, but as I said, Smogon doesn't even list Mewtwo's other options. It doesn't mention Dual Screens + Taunt for a 'max utility' variant of Mewtwo. It doesn't mention Selfdestruct (yes, that IS a viable option on Mewtwo). It doesn't mention his ability to spread paralysis with Thunder Wave (it only mentions WoW and Toxic, wth?). It doesn't even mention any of Mewtwo's boosting moves outside of CM, and those boosting moves, combined with his crazily good mixed attacking stats and his very decent mixed defensive stats are EXACTLY why Mewtwo is so unpredictable and flexible. He can perform very well with a phsyically boosting move, like Bulk Up for example, especially if the opponent is expecting the overused (pun intended) specially offensive Mewtwo. He's also got Barrier and Amnesia. He's bulky enough to run bulky sets on either side. If Mewtwo's the best Pokemon in Uber, it's really because you can never actually check/counter him until you know exactly what the **** he is doing.

 

[DMG]

Selfdestruct and Explosion got nerfed actually, they no longer do the same crazy damage

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

what happened to threads being about the topic in the title AND related to the game site it's on? no one actually gives a **** about ***** *** pokemon.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I end the Pokemon discussion with Choice Band Blissey

you don kno

YOU DON EVEN KNO

 

[bubbaking]

DMG, I am very aware of that. Regardless, do you realize how strong a 200 BP move is with base 110 physical Attack, especially with EVs in Attack and maybe an Attack-boosting nature? For kicks and giggles, you could throw in a couple Bulk Ups and a LO while you're at it. Even with the Selfdestruct nerf, a Selfdestruct from Mewtwo is a thing to fear, especially if all your ghosts and steel-types were just eliminated.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If you're still running selfdestruct on Mewtwo you're kinda bad at Pokemon.

Unless you're running the Bulk Up set, which while niche can still work quite effectively.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I end the Pokemon discussion with Choice Band Blissey

you don kno

YOU DON EVEN KNO

Trust me, I know

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

So, those marth results from apex. Do people still think he is over rated? I'm honestly curious because the general feeling was that in theory he is crazy good but in reality he is too difficult to perform with. Does apex change anyone's opinions?

Edit: ^ loving the mewtwo with the beam sword. Doubt that is legal even in ubers...

 

[ぱみゅ]

Stop trying to drive this thread on-topic, it won't last much anyway.

imo, Marth is fine at the spot he is right now.

 

[bubbaking]

Why is Kyurem-B still OU? Discuss.

No friggin' idea. I know physical hard-hitters are more common-place in OU than special ones are, making them easier to counter and such, but Kyruem-B literally stretches the limit. Just for laughs, as soon as BW2 was released, before people could realize what was "recommended" or not, I ran a fully-offensive CB set with that "Freeze Shock" move (2-turn 140 BP ice-type) and it was hilarious to see people scramble to switch to a poke that resisted ice only for them to still be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd (I mean seriously, 140 BP + STAB + 170 base Attack + Attack-boosting nature + CB......do you really think you're going to live? ). Actually, it was right after BW2 was released that I realized that Pokemon was starting to get a little dumb (weather had already begun that process, lolz), so I 'respectfully' bowed out, but not before racking up a 10 for 10 win record with Kyurem-B.

If you're still running selfdestruct on Mewtwo you're kinda bad at Pokemon.

Unless you're running the Bulk Up set, which while niche can still work quite effectively.

If you were talking about any other Pokemon, I'd agree with you (I was reluctant to remove Explosion from my Forry but it had to be done ), but this is Mewtwo. He makes anything work, and I've already taken clutch games with him using Selfdestruct.

 

[DMG]

You have to invest in it to make a dent now.

Part of the reason it doesn't list TW, is because he's not really an optimal Pokemon to use it. WoW and Toxic are a bit different, TW is better handled by Thundurus or by someone else. Quite a few Pokemon, sans the scarf ones, don't mind being paralyzed switching into Mewtwo. And the Pokemon you would like to TW will tend to be scarfed, who will kill you regardless if you aren't setup. If you take the turn to setup and they switch in scarfed, TW is useless. Like, basically it's too hard to use well on him unless you want to risk dying. WoW you can effectively use on the Physical switch ins, and Toxic will **** the bulkier Pokemon. Even in the most optimal case of paralyzing a scarf switch in, they are very likely to kill you if you don't switch. That's why it's not listed.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Edit: ^ loving the mewtwo with the beam sword. Doubt that is legal even in ubers...

Beam sword? if you're referring to my avatar you are mistaken, he's holding MK's sword

Most OP thing in the universe, Shiny Mewtwo with Metaknight's sword

 

[bubbaking]

I see. Times have changed.....

So, those marth results from apex. Do people still think he is over rated? I'm honestly curious because the general feeling was that in theory he is crazy good but in reality he is too difficult to perform with. Does apex change anyone's opinions?

If anyone actually thinks that, then I'd be sorely, SORELY at a loss to understand why anyone would want to change their opinions of Marth while refusing to admit the same for ZSS who's proved herself way more repeatedly and drastically than Marth ever has.

Of course, if you think ZSS should rise a spot or two, then you're fine.

 

[PK Gaming]

@PK Gaming: I hope you aren't just going by the "Suggested Sets" on Smogon, because Smogon is historically bad at listing all (or even half) of the competitive options available to a Pokemon. Lolz, thanks to Smogon's suggestions, Hydreigon was UU for a time because everyone thought, "Lolz, why run Mixed when we can just go all-in with Special? " Thanks to this mentality, Hydreigons were outright walled by Blisseys and Chanseys, despite having great mixed attacking stats + movepool.

Are you kidding me, Hydreigon was never UU on Smogon. Don't give me that ****, that Hydreigon analysis was fine; sure scrubs always spammed Choice Scarf, but the main set was solid. And of course Hydreigon would be walled by Blissey (its still somewhat walled by Chansey today) it didn't have a strong fighting-type move to break through. Don't you even dare suggest mixed + outrage, because that's unbelievably ****ty on Hydreigon. Anyway I revamped the entire analysis and made sure to included damn near everything since I use it on a semi consistent basis.

In fact, as a personal example, when I was just getting into 5th gen competitive gaming in OU tier (after playing in Ubers for a while), I asked on Smogon's chat room why everyone kept running solely Specially Offensive Hydregion when he had such great mixed attacking stats. The response from practically everyone: "Lol, are you ********? Why are you wasting your time giving Hydreigon physical moves when his specA stat is literally all he'll ever need? Stop trolling noob." At that point, I just put Blissey on my team and literally NEVER had trouble with a Hydreigon again. A little while later, Hydreigon sank from OU into UU tier because 'special walls checked Hydreigon too hard'. Needless to say, the moment people realized that Hydreigon actually had good physical attacks, he rose back into OU tier, and I'm pretty sure he's there to stay.

1. Hydreigon was never UU, stop making **** up
2. They were right, you ARE a noob, or at least when you're talking about things you clearly don't understand.

The moral of the story: Competitive Pokemon players (I'm not saying you're included) seem to follow a 'pack mentality' and Smogon just serves to fuel the fire and guide their actions, shaping the trends of the future with their "recommended sets". This is part of why I'm still somewhat doubtful on whether Deo-S was actually full-on banworthy or not (although I DO agree that he was potentially over-centralizing).

Only low-level players do that. High-level players use everything at their disposal. Regardless of onsite sets or usage.

You're arguably crazy. Kyogre may hit harder than Mewtwo but there's no way he has the flexibility of Mewtwo simply going by the movesets available to each of them.

Edit: I read the rest of your post, and maybe you're not so crazy, but suggesting that Mewtwo only has "2-3 sets at most" is nothing short of insane.

I think it's ironic that you try to argue that Kyogre's multiple sets mostly do the same thing / redundant, then suggest a bunch of sets for Mewtwo that are redundant or outright ****ty.

So I'm checking out Smogon's recommended sets, and I see that Ogre does indeed have 'more' sets, but they all recycle mostly the same moves with the differences being in the held item used (makes sense; Ogre can use Choice stuff, lefties, LO, etc. while Mewtwo is a little more restricted in this area), but Mewtwo's have much more variation in the moves utilized. Not only that, but as I said, Smogon doesn't even list Mewtwo's other options. It doesn't mention Dual Screens + Taunt for a 'max utility' variant of Mewtwo. It doesn't mention Selfdestruct (yes, that IS a viable option on Mewtwo). It doesn't mention his ability to spread paralysis with Thunder Wave (it only mentions WoW and Toxic, wth?). It doesn't even mention any of Mewtwo's boosting moves outside of CM, and those boosting moves, combined with his crazily good mixed attacking stats and his very decent mixed defensive stats are EXACTLY why Mewtwo is so unpredictable and flexible. He can perform very well with a phsyically boosting move, like Bulk Up for example, especially if the opponent is expecting the overused (pun intended) specially offensive Mewtwo. He's also got Barrier and Amnesia. He's bulky enough to run bulky sets on either side. If Mewtwo's the best Pokemon in Uber, it's really because you can never actually check/counter him until you know exactly what the **** he is doing.

Literally none of this is true. Selfdestruct is mentioned in other options (where it belongs; only an idiot would use gen V SD on Mewtwo, its too valuable to waste like that). It also mention Bulk-up and whatever gimmick you think deserves a set (which doesn't beat anything the regular CM Mewtwo can't beat). And for gods sake, Mewtwo isn't even the best Pokemon in Ubers, it's Arceus. Please, please, please don't tell me you did this with smash too.
---

You have to invest in it to make a dent now.

Part of the reason it doesn't list TW, is because he's not really an optimal Pokemon to use it. WoW and Toxic are a bit different, TW is better handled by Thunurus or by someone else. Quite a few Pokemon, sans the scarf ones, don't mind being paralyzed switching into Mewtwo. And the Pokemon you would like to TW will tend to be scarfed, who will kill you regardless if you aren't setup. If you take the turn to setup and they switch in scarfed, TW is useless. Like, basically it's too hard to use well on him unless you want to risk dying. WoW you can effectively use on the Physical switch ins, and Toxic will **** the bulkier Pokemon. Even in the most optimal case of paralyzing a scarf switch in, they are very likely to kill you if you don't switch. That's why it's not listed.

 

[DMG]

Arceus is a whole nother level of best LOL

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I would think that's more over because of the decreased gravity/better recoveries in brawl; rather then turnips themselves getting nerfed. Probably missing your point though.

Even then they had stronger knochback, so gravity did play a part, along with hit stun.

Her Turnips were still stupid good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Meta knights sword is named Galaxia btw, hence the final smash being named Galaxia Darkness. Its also the strongest swordin the Kirby universe. Which explains why it never clanks with any other attacks in Brawl

 

[Espy Rose]

But they aren't in the Kirby universe in Brawl...

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wait I missed this thing, someone said Mewtwo was not worthy of being Uber?

 

[bubbaking]

That was a long time ago.....

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ok. So, what happened? People are still discussing Mewtwo though. And he ain't even in Brawl.

I bet he'd be Uber in Brawl to though...

 

[PK Gaming]

Ok. So, what happened? People are still discussing Mewtwo though. And he ain't even in Brawl.

I bet he'd be Uber in Brawl to though...

knowing sakurai he'd probably still be jack-****

 

[infiniteV115]

Meta knights sword is named Galaxia btw, hence the final smash being named Galaxia Darkness. Its also the strongest swordin the Kirby universe. Which explains why it never clanks with any other attacks in Brawl

Except for the part where glide attack clanks with every other attack in Brawl that isn't transcendent.

 

[bubbaking]

But its priority (hitbox size and placement) is so great that it hardly matters. That and it kills. Also, none of his specials (other than DC?) have transcendent priority, but their animations can't be stopped anyway (and they still have a buttload of priority), so they're still good. Oh, and his DA can be clanked, but his foot grows sooo large for that attack, SSB 64-style.

 

[ぱみゅ]

what? Glide Attack clashing DOES matter. A LOT.
Some Snakes Bair after the MK SL'ed pretty high up and force a clash, and as they'll land first, punish.

 

[Dekillsage]

what? Glide Attack clashing DOES matter. A LOT.
Some Snakes Bair after the MK SL'ed pretty high up and force a clash, and as they'll land first, punish.

He meant the glide attack from doing a glide. So MK doesn't go to free fall after the attack and if it clashes he has advantage and presses buttons all day.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Still, being non-trascendant does matter...
It it were, MK would be definetly broken (he's currently arguably broken), as he'd get kills out of trades in the air everytime.

 

[bubbaking]

Are you kidding me, Hydreigon was never UU on Smogon. Don't give me that ****, that Hydreigon analysis was fine; sure scrubs always spammed Choice Scarf, but the main set was solid. And of course Hydreigon would be walled by Blissey (its still somewhat walled by Chansey today) it didn't have a strong fighting-type move to break through. Don't you even dare suggest mixed + outrage, because that's unbelievably ****ty on Hydreigon. Anyway I revamped the entire analysis and made sure to included damn near everything since I use it on a semi consistent basis.

Lolz, wow, no need to overreact like that. Puzzled by such a strong reaction, I looked into the matter and realized my mistake. Hydreigon was UU on PO at the time, not on Smogon, back when both were still using the same PO program. However, Hydreigon's usage was also falling on Smogon and I think he was starting to near that threshold as well. My memory partially failed me.

Lolz, you don't need a fighting-type move to break through Blissey (I'm not talking about Chansey because Chansey walls everything). Outrage reliably 2HKO's Bold Blissey with full Defense EVs (ran the calcs when I tried out Hydreigon on my team). If you don't like Outrage for some reason, Dragon Rush also reliably 2HKO's Blissey, if you don't mind the loss of accuracy in return for not being locked into a move. Besides, Mixed Hydreigon can always boost his stats with Work Up, a move that literally no one I talked to personally knew that Hydreigon possessed because (and I quote) "it wasn't highlighted on Smogon". There was literally no reason for Hydreigon to be walled by Blissey pre-BW2. The majority of people using the Pokemon weren't even capable of what it could do.

Also, I get the feeling that you're taking all of this waaaaay too personally.

I think it's ironic that you try to argue that Kyogre's multiple sets mostly do the same thing / redundant, then suggest a bunch of sets for Mewtwo that are redundant or outright ****ty.

How the heck was anything I suggested for Mewtwo "redundant" except for maybe twave? And how the heck could you even believe for a second that Mewtwo is much less flexible than Kyogre? Like, just look at their available movepools! Held items don't dictate everything, which is what you seem to be implying by saying something like that. Kyogre's sets are way more "redundant" than Mewtwo's because they barely vary outside of the items used and, like, a single move switched to take care of a different potential check/counter.

Literally none of this is true. Selfdestruct is mentioned in other options (where it belongs; only an idiot would use gen V SD on Mewtwo, its too valuable to waste like that). It also mention Bulk-up and whatever gimmick you think deserves a set (which doesn't beat anything the regular CM Mewtwo can't beat). And for gods sake, Mewtwo isn't even the best Pokemon in Ubers, it's Arceus. Please, please, please don't tell me you did this with smash too.

I admittedly never checked the "Other Options" section. My bad. But twave isn't mentioned, even if it's a pretty gimmicky option. Also, I'm pretty certain that Work Up was never mentioned anywhere on the Hydreigon page. I scanned that one pretty heavily when I was looking up Hydreigon stuff. That seems like a pretty major set-up move to be leaving out. And what the heck does "did this with smash too" even mean? Also, I'd argue that Kyogre is still the best Pokemon in Ubers, flexible or not.

Edit: Oh, nope! Work Up on Hydreigon is indeed mentioned, but only in the Ubers section, which kinda puzzles me since I would think that Mixed Hydreigon would be even less successful in Ubers than it would be in OU (and taking a turn to set up would be even more detrimental to your core strategy), especially when weak to so much nonsense in Ubers.

 

[Tesh]

glide attack clashing is pretty much why I find pit's to be much scarier. What were they thinking with glide attacks? sure zard has no range, metaknight can be clashed and beaten but pit has pretty damn respectable range and like 2 frames of lag. there isnt much of anything you can do about it except avoid him.