Official BBR Tier List v7

[SaveMeJebus]

PS the lasers

 

[bubbaking]

Hit the Pikmin.

Edit: And PS the purple ones.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I thought this argument would be over the moment people realized that Peach could just grab the edge out of float at any time to get her ledge invincibility at the perfect moment. Grab ledge while Ivy Razor Leafs or bairs (if he fairs, he severely risks just getting hit), then float and refresh the invincibility, dropping a turnip or whatever while you're at it. Not that hard, people...

People don't wanna play attention or learn all her option and stick to the typical mindset of her. If they did not not have to explain so many things to silly situations.

Peach simply has very few tools to send at an angle required to start edgeguarding against any good character, everything simply sends way too much upward.

I mean it's always possible if your opponent messes up badly to hit with a situational that might lead to a gimp, but you can't generalize from there and say it will happen often.

I do this to all tether characters that try to tether to stage. The drop turnip gives me enough time regrab the ledge or stall for their second jump then regrab the ledge. The point of this is NOT to send them to so far off to the death zone and they die when trying to recover. Which is what you and the others keep thinking. The point is that the turnip on hit will give me enough time to do things like my edgeguard examples. They do not have to mess up for this to happen. I time a Z drop at the point they would tether from a distance since as the ivy example, and I can do the edgeguards I stated before.

Though I dont do this often (which I think I will start playing around with) I could go to them off stage to them, Z drop a turnip and footstool cancel to float and grab the ledge. Or float near the ledge to bait a second jump if they have one, then grab the stage upon off B. I won't have to do this if We are far off stage when I land this.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's different, it's Brawl. Melee I like to go in, Street Fighter I play Zangief, etc

Don't make up some crap excuse. It being Brawl doesn't count worth a damn when Meta Knight exists.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Hit the Pikmin.

Edit: And PS the purple ones.

He can wait for you to throw out a hitbox

 

[-LzR-]

That was a good argument. It made me smile a bit.

 

[infiniteV115]

O.o
TL;DR Pikachu has much better MUs against MK, Falco, Snake, ZSS and DDD, a slightly better MU against himself, ROB and Diddy, does the same against Marth, Wario (and possibly Oli) and only has a slightly worse MU against Lucario and ICs (and possibly Oli)

(@Dekillsage)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How many characters can crouch under olimar's pikmin?

 

[DMG]

Don't make up some crap excuse. It being Brawl doesn't count worth a damn when Meta Knight exists.

He's the exception to the rule about the game. And I probably would have had fun with MK but I played Wario instead and had more fun, camping or not.

Besides, Wario can do things going in. It's just hard.

Jebus: you can shield Pikmin toss besides the Purples, and the Pikmin will fly through you. Won't even latch on the shield. You can also swat the Pikmin as they are tossed to you. It also does nothing to address stock defecits: MK or Wario running away when they have the stock lead Pikmin won't stop it

 

[Espy Rose]

So you're just a coward then. You coulda just said that.
Rushing in in Brawl is hilarious when you're doing it right.

 

[bubbaking]

That was a good argument. It made me smile a bit.

Which one? There were literally at least four in the past 24 hours.

 

[-LzR-]

Which one? There were literally at least four in the past 24 hours.

He can wait for you to throw out a hitbox

Here you go.

 

[PK Gaming]

@ DMG

Oh that explains everything. Hey props to you for being a fan of arguably the best Pokemon meta (DPPt). Machamp was really cool, I remember when I was starting out, I was a this massive noob, and i'd "stay in" on Machamps counters after I confused them, and i ended up haxing them out. The amount of rage I generated was hilarious.

Also you're right, **** EXPLOSION. My friends are sad that it got nerfed, but Explosion was so dumb in gen IV.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the #1 ended up hacking the ladder to get to #1.

Anyways, I've done every Gen competitively but DPPt definitely has been my favorite so far. ADV got really interesting as well. BW/BW2 have been ok... a few things have made it not as fun. I don't mind Weather that much, because it tends to make the other player really predictable especially with Team Preview, and I don't mind Weather wars of switching around to change the weather either (this is very good for stall teams/teams with Dugtrio trap). The only thing I dislike is that people take it as a free ticket to use the same "general" strategy and get it boosted for free. Mostly Rain, it's a little easy to set up Drizzle and them auto launch Surf/Hydro Pump/etc. Or something is scarfed and spams under Rain: even if you throw out the appropriate answer you are forced to move second and occasionally people just outright power through everything but the strictest checks. How many Rain teams have a Keldeo? Too many is the right answer.

BW2 is pretty stale and its honestly largely due to weather (rain) spam is so lame right now. You're right in saying that Choice Scarf Keldeo + Rain + whatever other rain user is braindead easy. BW1 wasn't perfect, but back before we got rain people actually used things like Conkeldurr (soo good in BW, pre-rain) and Reuniclus. Smogon is actually going to test Drizzle soon (we we're wasting our times with Deo-D imo). Hopefully it gets banned so the metagame can get better before gen VI hits.

I love the buffs to Fighting Pokemon, I love Techniloom and I will run it until I die LOL. Walling stuff with Gliscor is really borrrrringggggg I don't understand why people want to play Pokemon and wall stuff instead of attack! Offense gogogo so much funner. BW2 may have too much of that though, everything hits like a *****.

I don't see why people hate on things like Techniloom (arguably MY FAVORITE Pokemon to use in BW right now), Thundurus-T, etc. GF has been great at releasing a ton fun Pokemon. Sure they're ridiculously powerful, but contrary to popular belief, it's still possible to use stall and win with it. I gues Terrakion might be a bit much, but everything else is gravy.

 

[DMG]

Hmm... I dunno if that was him, but I do remember the ladder for like over a year being dominated by a guy who was doing a massive number of games a day. His win rate wasn't super ridiculous, but because he was going positive vs most of the top 10 he was keeping ahead all the time. Nobody else in the top 100 came close to his stats for games played, or average per day. I didn't hear much about him afterwards because I was losing interest in DPPt and stopped after a bit, so maybe that's what happened. I figured he was pretty legit because he had a solid variety of teams, wasn't just getting "lucky" all the time with a Salamence crit or something lame.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh it's this "bucket the recovery, +3" mindset again. Ness doesn't lose to GW. -1 at worst. His aerialgame more than makes up for it and Bthrow is a huge deal against GW. Don't forget Ness also has this thing called double jump and airspeed that are pretty damn good when combined with is retardedly good aerial moveset. Most likely he doesn't even need to use upB.

I'm pretty sure G&W's bair out-spaces Ness' fair (and by proxy, every one of Ness' aerials) and he can throw it out pretty wily-nily as long as he isn't dumb with it. Ness is one of those characters who also has more trouble getting away from dthrow > dsmash if he doesn't tech (and you'd be surprised by how many good players don't tech G&W's dthrow consistently) due to his weight or something, so there's an easier kill option. Lolz, DJ and airspeed? G&W can easily stuff all of that. With fair, nair, and bair, G&W can stuff a lot of DJ recovery attempts from reeaaally far out (I'm fairly certain Bacon works as well, which is hilarious), and once he tags or pressures that DJ, bucket > recover > win. G&W wins at neutral, he can't be gimped, and he destroys Ness offstage. +3 IMO. I've also played this MU a LOT, so I'm not sitting here theorycrafting at you. All this stuff works.

Also, compromises between the Ness and the G&W community, pretty much.

Ewww, compromises...?

Zeus Tier: (100%)


Augustus Caesar Tier:
Olimar (70%), Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Marth, Falco (69.2%)

Deposed Titan Tier
Snake (68.3333), Zero Suit Aphrodite (68.2%), Wario, Pikachu (49%)

Sicily Tier
Dedede (25%), Lucario, Toon Link, Fox, Wolf (1.33%)

What do those percentages mean?

[COLLAPSE="The Electric Tale of DMG"]I did a lot of laddering in the DPPt days, was my best Gen for awhile. Got a bit past top 50 and realized people grinded wayyyy more than I wanted to (if anyone remembers the guy at #1 for like, a year+ on the ladder, he had 3 times the games played of #2 #3 and #4 per day. ****in ridiculous). Plus I liked to run "funner" team comps. I BADLY WANTED Machamp on my team because why the **** not, No Guard Dynamic Punch is the ****! Same with Jolteon and Gengar... I had to cut some of that out, and ran the more popular **** like Salamence/Latias when they were legal, Heatran/Rotom-H/etc that was everywhere. Azelf leads took over, then someone decided to be an *** and run bulky Heatran/Metagross/etc as leads. Thats when Machamp got a bit more solid for leading, but I never could manage to make him super useful vs comps of that day. Half the time, he would only pull through due to ridiculous bad luck for the opponent on the confusion rolls lol.


Explosion was a ****in ***** in DPPt. Why couldn't they nerf it a Gen early?!?!? a9hsd9ad89


Anyways, I've done every Gen competitively but DPPt definitely has been my favorite so far. ADV got really interesting as well. BW/BW2 have been ok... a few things have made it not as fun. I don't mind Weather that much, because it tends to make the other player really predictable especially with Team Preview, and I don't mind Weather wars of switching around to change the weather either (this is very good for stall teams/teams with Dugtrio trap). The only thing I dislike is that people take it as a free ticket to use the same "general" strategy and get it boosted for free. Mostly Rain, it's a little easy to set up Drizzle and them auto launch Surf/Hydro Pump/etc. Or something is scarfed and spams under Rain: even if you throw out the appropriate answer you are forced to move second and occasionally people just outright power through everything but the strictest checks. How many Rain teams have a Keldeo? Too many is the right answer.


I love the buffs to Fighting Pokemon, I love Techniloom and I will run it until I die LOL. Walling stuff with Gliscor is really borrrrringggggg I don't understand why people want to play Pokemon and wall stuff instead of attack! Offense gogogo so much funner. BW2 may have too much of that though, everything hits like a *****.


(and to clarify, I mostly mean OU and Ubers. I didn't do GSC Ubers and rarely touched ADV Ubers, but OU and Ubers for both 4th and 5th Gen along with OU for every Gen)[/COLLAPSE]

Yeah, I did a lot of this too, although most of my super serious laddering time came from 5th gen. I actually worked myelf up into top 10 of BW Ubers and stayed there for quite some time (using a strictly 4th gen team, moves and all, going so far as to use regular Giratina when everyone else was using Giratina-O), while slowly working down the tiers. I was never really one for complex sets and stuff. I was more into the whole reading aspect of competitive Pokemon; reminded me of Smash mindgames and such. Then I found out that ladder points deterioriate over time (I knew nothing about that ELO? stuff and I still don't), so I gave up because I realized it was a waste of time.

Fun was my forte as well. In OU, I continued to run Ninjask, even after Team Preview rendered it obsolete RU material. Made it work, too. Lolz, I still remember the time when I 6-0'd some chap with a multi-SD boosted Ninjask behind a sub 'cause he had no idea what Ninjask does. Poor guy. He got fooled by the disappearance of some pokes from 5th gen's meta.

Not sure if 32 is the right number but I'm sure bubba will correct my bracket numbers for me if its not 32.

No, you got it right.

We're actually talking about tier list stuff? Lemme throw in my thoughts

Top:
High Tier:

Results don't really agree though.

What the heck is ROB doing above.....DDD? I could care less about ESAMPikachu; why are you nutting on the King?

 

[Dekillsage]

O.o
TL;DR Pikachu has much better MUs against MK, Falco, Snake, ZSS and DDD, a slightly better MU against himself, ROB and Diddy, does the same against Marth, Wario (and possibly Oli) and only has a slightly worse MU against Lucario and ICs (and possibly Oli)

(@Dekillsage)

Pikachu does have better Mu's against Mk and Falco, I agree. When it comes to snake vs pikachu... I don't really think its a bad match up. It might be -1 for snake, but I'm leaning towards it being 50-50. Pikachu can stop snake from recovering high, which is pretty big, but other than that I feel that pikachu only does well because he can also chaingrab snake. Snake vs rob is +1 for snake, but its a match up that the snake player has to know. It's what I would consider a slightly better MU for pikachu.

When it comes to the other match ups I think rob beats pikachu, and has a better mu vs diddy and marth.

Believe me pls

 

[infiniteV115]

idk, Diddyika seems like it's +1 in Diddy's favour. Diddy:ROB seems like it's at least +2 in Diddy's favour.

 

[bubbaking]

Uhhh, being able to CG Snake is a pretty big deal.

Also, records dictate that the MU might even be +2 Pika or something.

 

[Dekillsage]

idk, Diddyika seems like it's +1 in Diddy's favour. Diddy:ROB seems like it's at least +2 in Diddy's favour.

It's +2 when you take adhd to FD twice xD

@bubba
It's not +2. Being able to cg snake doesn't make or break the match ups. Snake vs ddd is 50-50, and +1 for either depending on stage. I think falco is -1, but it has nothing to do with the chaingrab really(It's a + for falco though)
Pikachu shouldn't be able to get in on snake enough to always be chaingrabbing him, so what does he do at neutral?

 

[bubbaking]

Wow, this computer is reeeaaaally bad. It makes me double post with one click, and it's been doing that repeatedly.

 

[DMG]

It's smashboards in general, it's making everyone do that don't worry

 

[infiniteV115]

It's +2 when you take adhd to FD twice xD

@bubba
It's not +2. Being able to cg snake doesn't make or break the match ups. Snake vs ddd is 50-50, and +1 for either depending on stage. I think falco is -1, but it has nothing to do with the chaingrab really(It's a + for falco though)
Pikachu shouldn't be able to get in on snake enough to always be chaingrabbing him, so what does he do at neutral?

I think you mean FD and then BF

 

[Dekillsage]

I think you mean FD and then BF

Yo I'm drunk LOL
Surprised Ocean did so poorly on BF too.

 

[Kewkky]

Chaingrabbing would actually help DDD a bit against Falco (as well as other MU's). It's an braindead-easy setup for an edgeguarding scenario, and while Falco could probably recover, there's gonna be times where he won't, or times where he'll take more damage than just the chaingrab's. That free damage could help DDD quite a bit. So, it really does kinda affect that MU.

Back in PR, one of my friends trolled another one of my friends by raising the damage ratio for a friendly to like 1.2, which is enough to allow DDD to chaingrab MK. The guy was pissed off and confused every time DDD cg'd MK. Good times, good times.

 

[Dekillsage]

Chaingrabbing would actually help DDD a bit against Falco (as well as other MU's). It's an braindead-easy setup for an edgeguarding scenario, and while Falco could probably recover, there's gonna be times where he won't, or times where he'll take more damage than just the chaingrab's. That free damage could help DDD quite a bit. So, it really does kinda affect that MU.

Probably, but I was only talking about snakes match ups.

 

[Kewkky]

Probably, but I was only talking about snakes match ups.

Well, you kinda mentioned this after the Snake part of your previous post:

I think falco is -1, but it has nothing to do with the chaingrab really(It's a + for falco though)

So I felt like saying something.

 

[Dekillsage]

Uhhh, being able to CG Snake is a pretty big deal.

Also, records dictate that the MU might even be +2 Pika or something.

Well, you kinda mentioned this after the Snake part of your previous post:So I felt like saying something.

You right -_^b

 

[bubbaking]

I'm actually confused by what's being talked about..... What's going on? @_@

Pikachu shouldn't be able to get in on snake enough to always be chaingrabbing him, so what does he do at neutral?

Pikachu can't get in on Snake? :/

It's not +2. Being able to cg snake doesn't make or break the match ups. Snake vs ddd is 50-50, and +1 for either depending on stage.

I don't think DDD:Snake is ever +1 for Snake anywhere. Then again, I guess the same could be said for DDD. RC is gone, and so is Brinstar, so no more crazy matches. (._.) In Pika's case, the CG can lead to deaths through walk-offs, just like with DDD, and Pika's a better char with an easier time getting in sooooooooooo.............yeah. That's my reasoning. (^_^)

 

[1PokeMastr]

Pikachu also wrecks Snake in the air.
And Snake's recovery.
And Pikachu is a hell of a lot cuter than a Robot.

 

[bubbaking]

Pikachu's 'catty' taunt (the one where he rolls slowly on the ground) is quite possibly one of the best taunts in the history of Smash.









Quite.

 

[Kewkky]

Foiled only by Pichu's convulsion taunt in Melee. And by that one God who asks you to show him your moves.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think Pikachu's best taunt is his obnoxious PIIIIIIIKAA PIKAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[bubbaking]

That's, like, all of them..........

 

[Dekillsage]

I'm actually confused by what's being talked about..... What's going on? @_@



Pikachu can't get in on Snake? :/



I don't think DDD:Snake is ever +1 for Snake anywhere. Then again, I guess the same could be said for DDD. RC is gone, and so is Brinstar, so no more crazy matches. (._.) In Pika's case, the CG can lead to deaths through walk-offs, just like with DDD, and Pika's a better char with an easier time getting in sooooooooooo.............yeah. That's my reasoning. (^_^)

Pikachu has an easy time getting on on snake... how? You mean with his grab that has no range, easy to punish approach and his projectile that's slow as ****? Good stuff

Snake beats DDD on Battlefield, Lylat and probably FD as well. Also walk offs? You mean on one transformation on castle siege that's irrelevant lol

Pikachu also wrecks Snake in the air.
And Snake's recovery.
And Pikachu is a hell of a lot cuter than a Robot.

Everyone wrecks snake in the air. It's not a pikachu only thing.
Thunder is pretty ****ing ballin though. How dare I airdodge or momentum cancel or recover high with cypher?

Also pikachu may be cuter, but he is nowhere near as fabulous as rob

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@DMG, you can shield, but it wastes it because you can't PS them. Also, olimar can throw pikmin between hits. No character can force an approach when they are a stock behind

 

[infiniteV115]

That's, like, all of them..........

Nope.
One is "PikaaaaaaAAAAA"
Another is "PIIIIIIIIIIIIII"
And the third one is "PIIIIIIIIKAA PIKAAAAAAAAAA"

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nope.
One is "PikaaaaaaAAAAA"
Another is "PIIIIIIIIIIIIII"
And the third one is "PIIIIIIIIKAA PIKAAAAAAAAAA"

This is maybe the most insightful, deep post this thread has had in a while.
No joke, this thread has been terrible outside of some Pokemon talks.

 

[Delta-cod]

You gotta admit tho, "PikaaaaaaAAAAA" is pretty damn adorable.

 

[bubbaking]

That's the cat one, right? Well, that's the best one. :3

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's smashboards in general, it's making everyone do that don't worry

No, every time I check this thread, there's a 66% chance bubba has double posted. It's not just smashboards lol.