Official BBR Tier List v7

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, it doesn't reduce shield stun.

 

[Shaya]

It's actually more that power shielding grenades bounces them back + if it explodes the hitboxes for them extend a lot further back.

 

[Dekillsage]

@Killsage: IMO ROB shouldn't be that high, for a bunch of reasons... :/

As we discussed before, I still feel as though ESAM's consistent results with pikachu gives pika the momentum he needs to stay in top tier. Wario could maybe be going to high tier if ZSS heads to top tier (which I think she will, if what kyo was saying to me ages ago has any bearing), ICs should be 2nd or 3rd and oli should be the other one that ICs isn't, Marth has done well recently and probably could rise a spot or two, while snake/falco suffer ever so slightly.

Thats how I feel top tier is gonna work this time around. I could be totally, totally off though. I can explain my reasoning for any of that if you want.

Other than Money Knight I don't think the top tiers are that much better than each other so you can change the spots around Pikachu and Zss top tiers though? I'd have to disagree there. Pikachu is a character who can beat some of the top tiers but isn't top tier himself. When I look at ROB I look at his tools and it just screams high tier with so much more potential.

The only reason I see DDD vs Snake being in DDD favor is its much easier to screw over snake than a DDD.

The two are nearly even so many ways and ideally it should be Snake's favor, but it just doesn't come out that way in play.

To me, DDD my as well not even have a projectile. Its only when he gets lucky with the waddle dee and gordo that it makes any difference in play typically. Therefore, his coverage on the ground is outmatched by Snake. Thus, snake can play around outside of DDD's range without commitment.

Oh, and how is DDD going to get a reliable KO? Without commitment part, Snake will generally be able to have a cop out and avoid all KO situations that are grounded. If Snake is being hit by any of those moves Utilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or Usmash, then he chose the option that while might have gotten him to ground faster there was still the option to avoid being hit and thus live. Therefore, the typically KO move should be Fair or Bair from DDD. This contributes to Snake living a really long time unless DDD can manage to get an aerial gimp on snake near say 100% or something.

The chain grab is not that big of deal. Well, again it shouldn't be. Its guaranteed damage after a grab, but snake has the same option with player error coming into account. DDD fits into the notch of one of the few characters Snake should absolutely get free chain grabs on. With his roll range being lower than most others and his get-up attack pointed away first, then towards, DDD is someone snake should feasibly be able to CG to death.

The downside to the whole match is when either character makes a mistake and it leads to heavy punishment. Again, should be heavy punishment from Snake's side. He does have the tools and methods to deal with anything DDD can try. Horizontal range in the air is so bad he can just walk out of range and ftilt/dash attack once DDD is in lag (taking care to realize the mode of how DDD hit the ground and react accordingly.) But in reality, DDD gets the guaranteed option of CG into a bad situation while Snake's guaranteed CG is riddled with opportunity for error.

Ideally, Snake should win. Realistically, I see its even. To the general public, it may as well be DDD's favor.

Pretty much spot on. Getting CG'd isn't scary because of the damage, its scary because of the positioning. Without it DDD can't kill snake without making a hard read and committing.

The only reply I will say to this right now is that you clearly don't know much about DDD nor do you understand how this MU works.....

Edit: Guaranteed CG to death? Get out troll! We have no bridges for you to hide under!

???

Dedede out camps snake if you're good at counting and power shielding at the same time.

It's actually more that power shielding grenades bounces them back + if it explodes the hitboxes for them extend a lot further back.

Snake vs DDD at camping isn't even a contest. Sure you can powershield grenades or even toss them back at me. The problem is there's two of them, but with different timers and different positions. You can powershield and bounce it back but I can drop it right back down with my 2nd grenade or I can catch it and toss it back. DDD is too big to try and camp snake, he should always be trying to make an approach ever so slowly.

 

[NickRiddle]

Waddles stop nades.

 

[Dekillsage]

Waddles stop nades.

Sorta? I mean you can stop one grenade with waddle and then I start jump tossing them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

personally i don't have a hard time believing any character beats freedede.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only reply I will say to this right now is that you clearly don't know much about DDD nor do you understand how this MU works.....

Edit: Guaranteed CG to death? Get out troll! We have no bridges for you to hide under!

Snake can cover all of DDD's options on reaction from a tech chase, so it as good as a guaranteed CG on DDD. Its not a CG on characters like Wario who's forward roll is so long he cannot catch up and therefore its unreasonable to assume he can predict all options.

Besides, you really shouldn't leave an argument with the easy cop out statements as "you don't understand anything". If it bothers you, then just counter it or live it alone. But, I look forward to you giving me some of your time later and be a bit more tactful than easy one liners anyone can come up with.

Powershielding so overrated

Most things you can do out of a PS you could do anyway, the best option out of shield is almost always grab anyway

Don't get me wrong PS is good, but I think most people think it does an abundance of things it doesn't

Powershielding does two things: reduces shield drop frames to 0, and dramatically reduces shield pushback. For luigi (and ICs to a lesser extent), that's great. For snake, it can be pretty good for ensuring tilts against some faster options. For everyone else, it's situationally strong. All of our shield calculations are done assuming a powershield. if a move is -5 on shield, it's -5 on PS, not -5 on regular shield and 0 on PS or anything else. Powershielding is basically turning all non-grab, non-JC moves into good OOS options, but in most cases they would have been good options anyway because characters in this game are laggy as **** on shield.

Then, its amazing how much 7 frames change on a ton of things. Dash attack after a shield drop is pretty amazing due to the coverage out of a shield, but with an extra 7 frames that is just even more stuff to punish in the game.

@Shaya: I'm sorry but I really don't think so. DDD out-camping......Snake? If someone could prove it, that would be awesome, but I've never seen it done before.

@SFP: Actually, I'm pretty sure PS's allow DDD to punish Snake's tilts more often. For instance, I believe a PS lets DDD more easily punish, via a shieldgrab, Snake's spaced utilt.

If you shield any attack from Snake, DDD can grab it even without the powershield. Utilt might be the only thing that he cannot otherwise there isn't enough disjoint on all of his moves. Shield stun in this game only lasts about 1-3 frames I believe on most lower percentage attacks (something like damage/3 is the formula). After the hitlag, you can grab nearly right away before any push does anything to you.

It's actually more that power shielding grenades bounces them back + if it explodes the hitboxes for them extend a lot further back.

Waddles stop nades.

That's general there only usage when both characters are grounded unless you get the Dee or gordo.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Pikachu is a character who can beat some of the top tiers but isn't top tier himself.

agreed w/ this, i use pikachu and everyone knows i don't use good characters

 

[C.J.]

I'm convinced.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yoshi beats D3. @SFP

 

[Z'zgashi]

^ lol

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I like how I think I started this conversation direction by saying ddd is the worst character along with jiggly.

but back on topic, I feel people greatly over estimate snakes camping ability. He isn't so good at forcing approaches with his grenades as he is preventing approaches. Grenades are fantastic at limiting options but I dont feel they tack on damage at range anything like flaoc's lasers, or olimar's pikman do.

You should be able to comfortably avoid any damage from grenades with simple evasion by this point in the games's life, that's ignoring all of the ways to throw back or block them with say a waddle

 

[pidgezero_one]

flaoc

niiiice

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dedede is a character that is guaranteed to get worse and worse as people get better at the game

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

agreed w/ this, i use pikachu and everyone knows i don't use good characters

This is probably the best argument I've ever heard.

 

[infiniteV115]

Best thing about being Canadian, you get so much snow that your university closes for the day and your exam gets postponed. Now I can waste even MORE time on SWF

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Dedede is a character that is guaranteed to get worse and worse as people get better at the game

I am curious what your reasoning for this is. Lately DDD's have been doing some real work against match ups that are supposed to be real bad.

At apex I know vex was doing a number on some high level diddy's.

 

[infiniteV115]

So does 'Bobwithlobsters' imply that there is a person named Bob, and that said person is with lobsters?

Or is it telling me to bob, with lobsters?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Have you guys ever seen a dual Diddy vs a dual D3?

Easily the biggest cluster****

 

[Bing]

Football!!!!!

In all seriousness, Fox should go down and Lucas should go up.

Go flaoc yourself

Have you guys ever seen a dual Diddy vs a dual D3?

Easily the biggest cluster****

Stef, team with me. Double Jiggs or Double Peach

 

[infiniteV115]

Have you guys ever seen a dual Diddy vs a dual D3?

Easily the biggest cluster****

I have. The replay was on my Wii XD

 

[pidgezero_one]

Stef, team with me. Double Jiggs or Double Peach

not going to sid14

I have. The replay was on my Wii XD

I bet you were like "i have the weirdest boner right now"

 

[Bing]

not going to sid14



I bet you were like "i have the weirdest boner right now"

I never said it had to be at SiD 14! We havent teamed since Apex 2012. When I was still brutal, now Im just bad. We can do this!

 

[pidgezero_one]

alright we'll see when we're both a t a tourney

 

[Iota]

Are we having another ontario take over?

 

[bubbaking]

Best thing about being Canadian, you get so much snow that your university closes for the day and your exam gets postponed. Now I can waste even MORE time on SWF

All of the Northeast Coast is getting that, bro. In MA, the snow's gonna be so bad that, after a certain time today (I think it's 4:00 but I forget whether the news said AM or PM), being on the roads can put you in jail for a year (absolutely no lie, I'm serious).

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

All of the Northeast Coast is getting that, bro. In MA, the snow's gonna be so bad that, after a certain time today (I think it's 4:00 but I forget whether the news said AM or PM), being on the roads can put you in jail for a year (absolutely no lie, I'm serious).

The Boston vs Tampa Bay NHL game in Boston got moved from 1 PM to 7 PM in order to allow fans to get to the game safely, so I doubt they'll be putting people in jail for driving today.

If they do then Americans are weaker (when it comes to snow) than I though.

 

[bubbaking]

The Boston vs Tampa Bay NHL game in Boston got moved from 1 PM to 7 PM in order to allow fans to get to the game safely, so I doubt they'll be putting people in jail for driving today.

If they do then Americans are weaker (when it comes to snow) than I though.

I just saw it on the news half an hour ago. The MA governor issued the decree himself. It's not only MA, either. RI is putting in place a similar restriction and CT is soon to follow. We may not be 'hardy' but we aren't stupid.

Edit: Also, as I said, the time ordered was 4:00 (I don't know if it was AM or PM), so it may not coincide with the time the NHL game is taking place.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yoshi beats D3. @SFP

Wario beats DDD

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

DK clearly beats D3

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Jigglypuff and mewtwo beat DDD, solidly...

 

[Luco]

Other than Money Knight I don't think the top tiers are that much better than each other so you can change the spots around Pikachu and Zss top tiers though? I'd have to disagree there. Pikachu is a character who can beat some of the top tiers but isn't top tier himself. When I look at ROB I look at his tools and it just screams high tier with so much more potential.

Pikachu is top tier (IMO) because he consistently places well and he is the ONLY character with an even MU against MK (talking to ESAM, I seem to recall him saying he wasn't so sure it was +1 MKs favour anymore, BUT I COULD BE WRONG SO SOMEONE ASK ESAM ). If the character that wins apex doesn't go up at least one spot on the tier list, there is something seriously wrong with it haha.

 

[FredFuchs]

i think it goes without say that bowser wrecks ddd

 

[Diddy Kong]

Jigglypuff and mewtwo beat DDD, solidly...

Mewtwo vs Dedede is 80-20 easily

 

[DMG]

Pikachu is top tier (IMO) because he consistently places well and he is the ONLY character with an even MU against MK (talking to ESAM, I seem to recall him saying he wasn't so sure it was +1 MKs favour anymore, BUT I COULD BE WRONG SO SOMEONE ASK ESAM ). If the character that wins apex doesn't go up at least one spot on the tier list, there is something seriously wrong with it haha.

ESAM himself is usually the one to provide those consistent results, but he also puts in work with IC's. As for the even MU with MK, I dunno if ESAM thinks that anymore. The only character people are really considering for even with MK is IC's, which is heavily stage (and rule) dependant.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ESAM's results are consistent... consistently losses. He has won 6 sets with top Meta Knights and lost 16 since APEX 2012, and that's just what's on YouTube. Doesn't exact scream even match-up. Pikachu has good stuff against MK but I don't see it as even.

 

[Kewkky]

Not to mention that that's just ESAM. Looking at other Pikachu mainers' records against top MKs will probably be even worse.

 

[Espy Rose]

I think ESAM is shooting for an even match up again. I'm not entirely sure though.

 

[Pikabunz]

He said it was even again after APEX.

 

[Dekillsage]

Honestly I think Falco and Ic's are much better characters vs MK and those match ups are still in his flavor~~ I don't believe Metaknight is even with anyone if they play the match up correctly.