Official BBR Tier List v7

[DMG]

Well, other people were having that issue. I was for a bit too, where Smashboards would not notify me that I posted, so then I open another tab and check the tread and behold! Last post is from me. In fact this post and also the edit? Both of them didn't show up when I originally did it, I have to click post/save and then check it later.

 

[bubbaking]

Well then it's my computer. Every time I start to post something, after I've typed it up, I make sure to hit the "Reply" button just once. Then the next page takes forever to load up and then one of three things happens, all of which create two identical posts:

1. The page times out, so I refresh the page, causing two posts to be submitted.
2. The page I was JUST on (where the message was typed) comes back with the entire message still intact. At first, I thought that this meant the message didn't go through and I was graciously being given another chance to reply with my original message, but after this happened a couple times, I looked below the text box (the "Topic Review" where it shows the latest posts before you started typing your own), and I saw the post I had just submitted, despite the fact that I was returned to the "Reply to Thread" page (with my message still there, mind you).
3. This one's the wierdest. The next page still takes a really long time to load, but the load finishes successfully. Nothing times out and the page doesn't go back, yet for some reason, TWO identical messages are submitted instead of one.

At random times, it seems like SWF catches these. Sometimes, it tells me that I'm trying to post twice under a minute, which is a huge red flag, and sometimes, it just tells me outright that I'm posting an identical post to what I've already put up, but it doesn't always do this, which I find wierd and.....kinda inefficient.

Edit: LOOOOOLZ!!!! It just happened right now. Right when I tried to make this post, SWF told me that I tried to post something identical to what I already had here. Then it redirected me and LO AND BEHOLD, this post was here. Internet or SWF? I wonder.......

Pikachu has an easy time getting on on snake... how? You mean with his grab that has no range, easy to punish approach and his projectile that's slow as ****? Good stuff

QAC is easy to punish? Pika's bad grab range isn't that bad when combined with his mobility. Slow projectiles are actually pretty great. They take up space and exert stage control. Wolf's lasers are a pretty good example of this, IMO.

Actually, what the heck am I saying; Snake's projectiles are a PERFECT example of this.

Snake beats DDD on Battlefield, Lylat and probably FD as well

No, no, and NO! It's probably still even on BF and Lylat. The MU definitely isn't in Snake's favor on FD. Are you crazy? If Snake wins on BF and FD, then what kind of stage do you think DDD has the advantage on?

Also walk offs? You mean on one transformation on castle siege that's irrelevant lol

Lolz, did you just forget about Delfino and its plethora of walk-offs?

Edit: And don't forget about walls, lolz!

 

[Dekillsage]

Delphino... my auto ban lol(irrelevant)

You're going to qac at snakes giant hit boxes and explosives? I see

I don't feel like talking about snake vs ddd with someone who doesn't play either character but snake wins on bf and lylat

 

[bubbaking]

......................................................................................................................................................

I spent a good 5 minutes staring at your post because I couldn't believe you just said that I don't play DDD. It's understandable to think that I haven't played good Snakes (even though that's completely incorrect), but that first part....... Ayyyyyyy..........

Edit: Y'know, if I just went off your post-bit, I'd think you only play Snake and you don't know a thing about ROB. How does that make you feel?

tl;dr - You're ********.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

 

[blacktwins13]

HEY CAN WE ALL JUST BE FRIENDS AND NOT ACT LIKE THESE PPL IN THIS LINK
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...86096741.84519.373046942763982&type=1&theater

 

[Dekillsage]

......................................................................................................................................................

I spent a good 5 minutes staring at your post because I couldn't believe you just said that I don't play DDD. It's understandable to think that I haven't played good Snakes (even though that's completely incorrected), but that first part....... Ayyyyyyy..........

Edit: Y'know, if I just went off your post-bit, I'd think you only play Snake and you don't know a thing about ROB. How does that make you feel?

tl;dr - You're ********.

After I posted I remembered @ some point you said you played ddd. Sorry, its hard to know what character you play when idk who you are lol. What good snakes have you played? Tell me I'd love to know.

Also good stuff calling me ******** when you say things like pikachu approaches snake with qac. xD

 

[SaveMeJebus]

DDD beats snake. He lives forever and destroys Snake offstage

 

[bubbaking]

The fact of the matter is I've mained DDD since late 2011, secondarying him earlier than that (when I mained MK). I've played against several Snakes, including notable ones. I've faced Fatal and Trouble/Problem (lolz, I forgot his tag again XD) in tournament. I think I know how the DDD:Snake MU works. You, on the other hand, are a lowly ROB main as far as I know. So in your own words, "I don't feel like talking about snake vs ddd with someone who doesn't play either character."

I honestly think the DDD:Snake MU is pretty even on Lylat, as it is on most stages.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Except he doesn't really live forever. Utilt kills DDD at about 115%, and if DDD ever gets to the air (which isn't hard to force with potential Dash Attacks, DACUS, even normal Grenade play) he's always risking getting hit by it...

 

[B0NK]

 

[bubbaking]

@Dekillsage: Btw, I'm clearly overreacting, hence the usage of the word "lowly". I hope you didn't get offended (although I did ). I actually think ROB is a pretty cool (but bad) character.

@B0NK: If you're only going to go by someone's post-bit to see who they play, then you're in for a bit of shock. I main Fox in SSB 64 and Samus in Melee. All three of those characters displayed are secondaries.

 

[Dekillsage]

DDD beats snake. He lives forever and destroys Snake offstage

Snake does the same thing.

The fact of the matter is I've mained DDD since late 2011, secondarying him earlier than that (when I mained MK). I've played against several Snakes, including notable ones. I've faced Fatal and Trouble/Problem (lolz, I forgot his tag again XD) in tournament. I think I know how the DDD:Snake MU works. You, on the other hand, are a lowly ROB main as far as I know. So in your own words, "I don't feel like talking about snake vs ddd with someone who doesn't play either character."

I honestly think the DDD:Snake MU is pretty even on Lylat, as it is on most stages.

Welp can't argue with that.

Except he doesn't really live forever. Utilt kills DDD at about 115%, and if DDD ever gets to the air (which isn't hard to force with potential Dash Attacks, DACUS, even normal Grenade play) he's always risking getting hit by it...

Utilt won't kill at 115% with any kind of DI. Snake can kill DDD fine, but if I stale my utilt at all it wont kill him when the time comes.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, what? DDD isn't dying at 115% to anything except, like, fsmash.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Yeah, Snake destroys DDD offstage

 

[Dekillsage]

Yeah, Snake destroys DDD offstage

It's more like
Snake doesn't let DDD back on stage.

 

[bubbaking]

Snake does indeed live forever, but DDD has a much easier time edgeguarding Snake, and one successful approach equals a whole ton of damage + Snake offstage. The only reason this MU is even at all is because Snake makes it hella hard for DDD to get in and he does have some pretty hard-hitting punishes himself. Still, one successful approach can potentially equal Snake's stock at any %. In the tournament where I faced Fatal in QF's, I nearly 0-to-death'd him in, like, the first 15 seconds of the first match. I got one grab which led to a CG. At the edge, I just pummel released him instead of throwing him and then grabbed him out of his Cypher. He only lived because he C4'd himself. I was inexperienced so I let him go (costing me that match), but I'm confident I could have turned that into a lost stock if I'd actually gone out after him. An Inhale (cancelled by the Cypher's hitbox) would have ended him. With ridiculous punishes like that, it's surprising that the MU is even at all, and I feel like if Snake didn't have the crazy projectile walling game that he has, this MU would actually be +2 DDD or something. It's that bad.

 

[infiniteV115]

Except he doesn't really live forever. Utilt kills DDD at about 115%, and if DDD ever gets to the air (which isn't hard to force with potential Dash Attacks, DACUS, even normal Grenade play) he's always risking getting hit by it...

Looooooolwat

Even though this was probably done in frame advance with a frame perfect momentum cancel and perfect DI, even realistically a fresh one probably won't kill til like 145.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol I had my numbers mixed up, but I still have seen DDD dying pretty early many times before...

 

[infiniteV115]

That just means the person didn't DI and MC reasonably well.
Or maybe low ceiling/on platform.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It's more like
Snake doesn't let DDD back on stage.

He gets like 5 jumps plus he can put snake at risk of getting baired/swollowed

 

[Dekillsage]

He gets like 5 jumps plus he can put snake at risk of getting baired/swollowed

DDD's jumps aren't that great. If he wants to use all 5 and recover with up B then that's fine by me. Remember I'm not jumping off stage to hit ddd(unless I'm doing yolo strats). I'm just not letting him get back on stage without any punishment.

edit: also if ddd dies vertically early by utilt... it means that person has the best DI and you want to play that guy Getting DDD to kill % isn't that hard though, D-throw is really good vs ddd and I can still kill with Uair. If he does up b to recover I can kill him earlier horizontally with bair or spike him/kill him with fair. There's a lot I can do.

 

[bubbaking]

After I posted I remembered @ some point you said you played ddd. Sorry, its hard to know what character you play when idk who you are lol. What good snakes have you played? Tell me I'd love to know.

Also good stuff calling me ******** when you say things like pikachu approaches snake with qac. xD

If memory serves me correctly, you used to be from the same region as me (I moved, not you). Did you ever go to one of the Impacts? Yes, I was in the heat of the moment. Sorry! Still, Pika can approach anyone with QAC if done correctly.

Utilt kills DDD at about 115%, and if DDD ever gets to the air (which isn't hard to force with potential Dash Attacks, DACUS, even normal Grenade play) he's always risking getting hit by it...

Lolz, Snake is even worse at getting down from the air then DDD is, and DDD arguably has an easier time putting him there. Snake is literally one of the ONLY characters where a DDD might consider using uthrow because it's so hard for him to get down without taking damage or getting grabbed again. His side throws also put him into the air, and a single CG that sends Snake offstage also sends him into the air since he's probably going to recover high. DDD's utilt also kills and his head even gets invincibility, allowing him to power through some attacks, and I believe DDD's going to be killing Snake with his own utilt before Snake kills him (damage-wise).

Edit: I like how Dekillsage is arguing with Jebus instead of the actual DDD main.....

 

[ぱみゅ]

Both have cheesy stuff on each other, it's just a clash of two characters with few options (bar grenades) but high reward.

 

[Dekillsage]

Wasn't arguing. You've already talked about the pros DDD has so might as well talk about some of Snakes stuff.

Also yes I'm from the ny/nj region. I used to only go to the Impact tournaments because they were Mk banned.

Edit: Landing with snake vs ddd isn't as hard as it may seem. Still have B reversals and c4 stuff I can use to land. DDD however gets dashed attack when he lands. Pretty fun stuff

 

[bubbaking]

@Kyokoro: Snake's rewards aren't that high. It's more that he keeps incurring them repeatedly because of how hard he makes it for DDD to get in. For the longest time, you could not convince me that this MU was anything worse than +1 for DDD, especially after that match with Fatal, but I've since changed my opinion. Snake's a tough cookie. He likes his eggs raw. DDD doesn't lay eggs, but he still finds that pretty fearsome.

@Dekillsage: If you went to any Impact other than Impact IV, then we were in the same room and didn't even know it! Yeah, I liked how they were MK-banned too. Apex 2012 and a recent tourney I just went to (East Coast Elites) were pretty much the only MK-legal tourneys I've ever gone to.....I think.

Have you ever tried DAing DDD's swallow because he can just throw that out to cover his landing. We're not as helpless as you think. Also, we have our DJ/FF mix-ups that keep you guessing when exactly we're going to land (and we're the fastest falling character in the game).

 

[Dekillsage]

My dash attack hits on like the 5th frame. I can wait for you to get low enough
I can also make your landing uncomfortable with grenades and C4. DDD doesn't really deal well when it comes to landing vs Snake.

Snake also has really good damage output, especially off dthrow. Tech chasing DDD is one of the easiest ones, and at worst I get a dash attack after dthrow.

Remember that DDD jumping doesn't really bother snakes. He doesn't jump high, and its actually easier to know how he's going to land when he's jumping.

 

[bubbaking]

You're going to qac at snakes giant hit boxes and explosives? I see

Admittedly, I don't play Pika, nor do I know too much about the character, but I was under the impression that the only time QAC was easily punished was when it was used predictably. So if it's used UNpredictably, how is Snake supposed to get his "giant hitboxes" out in time to stop it? Also, what does Snake do if Pika QAC's in when Snake is pulling out a 'nade or something?

lol I had my numbers mixed up, but I still have seen DDD dying pretty early many times before...

Yeah (actually no), and as I've already stated, Snake can die SUPER early to dumb stuff as well, and that's not even regarding the walls and walk-offs from CS, PS1, Delfino, and Frigate (and whatever other stages have that kind of stuff).

That just means the person didn't DI and MC reasonably well.
Or maybe low ceiling/on platform.

Yeah, DDD doesn't die at 115% to any attack that isn't a really strong fsmash.

DDD's jumps aren't that great. If he wants to use all 5 and recover with up B then that's fine by me. Remember I'm not jumping off stage to hit ddd(unless I'm doing yolo strats). I'm just not letting him get back on stage without any punishment.

Yes, Snake can make DDD's recovery hard, but did you know that DDD can nair through Mortar? Dair and Inhale are also pretty good at getting us onto the ground mostly scot-free.

If he does up b to recover I can kill him earlier horizontally with bair or spike him/kill him with fair. There's a lot I can do.

Lolz, what DDD is travelling so predictably and linearly with his upB's descent (you can't hit him out of his ascent) that you're able to land a fair on him? A fair, of all things! At ANY POINT, he can change his direction or grab the ledge or something, anything to avoid an attack as slow and telegraphed as Snake's fair. How the heck are you landing a fair on him, lolz!

My dash attack hits on like the 5th frame. I can wait for you to get low enough

Again, can Snake's DA hit through DDD's Inhale? If we're in a position to be punished when landing, we often use that move. Also, what about all the plats that are around? We don't mind being on them as much as you do, in my experience.

Remember that DDD jumping doesn't really bother snakes. He doesn't jump high, and its actually easier to know how he's going to land when he's jumping.

So dair and fair and bair and nair > utilt/grab and Inhale don't bother you?

 

[MikeKirby]

Punishing DDD's landing are not hard at all if you're playing reactive. You can just literally walk under him until he runs out of jumps and either shield grab him out of any aerial or roll if DDD inhales. I'm sure if Kirby can hammer punish DDD out of his up-b, then it wouldn't surprise me if Snake can f-air him out of it. DDD's up-b is very telegraphed and is completely vulnerable just before the apex of his jump. If you have the right timing, I'm sure you can do almost anything you want.

I'm sure Snake can't DA through inhale but I'm pretty sure inhale doesn't beat out a 5 frame move on reaction. That thing is really quick...

 

[bubbaking]

I'm sure if Kirby can hammer punish DDD out of his up-b, then it wouldn't surprise me if Snake can f-air him out of it. DDD's up-b is very telegraphed and is completely vulnerable just before the apex of his jump. If you have the right timing, I'm sure you can do almost anything you want.

Yeah, and I'm not questioning that you can easily attack his ascent. You can't spike DDD out of that because of his SA (he'll still take damage, though). It's the descent you can't attack so easily. If a Snake is in position for a fair, then DDD shouldn't be falling there. If DDD didn't cancel the attack, it was because Snake wasn't in a position to be fairing him after he landed, and if he did, then the landing lag isnt enough for Snake to actually fair it on reaction (after getting to where DDD landed after changing his falling trajectory). Also, isn't Kirby's hammer faster than Snake's fair? <__<

I'm sure Snake can't DA through inhale but I'm pretty sure inhale doesn't beat out a 5 frame move on reaction. That thing is really quick...

Oh yeah, definitely. To be fair, DDDs usally never Inhale on reaction. We Inhale pre-emptively if we're in a bad position (or you're in a bad position to avoid the Inhale) and one of those positions is when we need to land while you're right there.

 

[Luco]

@Killsage: IMO ROB shouldn't be that high, for a bunch of reasons... :/

As we discussed before, I still feel as though ESAM's consistent results with pikachu gives pika the momentum he needs to stay in top tier. Wario could maybe be going to high tier if ZSS heads to top tier (which I think she will, if what kyo was saying to me ages ago has any bearing), ICs should be 2nd or 3rd and oli should be the other one that ICs isn't, Marth has done well recently and probably could rise a spot or two, while snake/falco suffer ever so slightly.

Thats how I feel top tier is gonna work this time around. I could be totally, totally off though. I can explain my reasoning for any of that if you want.

 

[bubbaking]

Dekillsage's tier list (the upper portion of it, anyway) looked like it could be interpreted in two ways (ignoring the labels of "Top" and "High" that he assigned each of the rows). Half of Top Tier fell out of it, or DDD rose into it.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only reason I see DDD vs Snake being in DDD favor is its much easier to screw over snake than a DDD.

The two are nearly even so many ways and ideally it should be Snake's favor, but it just doesn't come out that way in play.

To me, DDD my as well not even have a projectile. Its only when he gets lucky with the waddle dee and gordo that it makes any difference in play typically. Therefore, his coverage on the ground is outmatched by Snake. Thus, snake can play around outside of DDD's range without commitment.

Oh, and how is DDD going to get a reliable KO? Without commitment part, Snake will generally be able to have a cop out and avoid all KO situations that are grounded. If Snake is being hit by any of those moves Utilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or Usmash, then he chose the option that while might have gotten him to ground faster there was still the option to avoid being hit and thus live. Therefore, the typically KO move should be Fair or Bair from DDD. This contributes to Snake living a really long time unless DDD can manage to get an aerial gimp on snake near say 100% or something.

The chain grab is not that big of deal. Well, again it shouldn't be. Its guaranteed damage after a grab, but snake has the same option with player error coming into account. DDD fits into the notch of one of the few characters Snake should absolutely get free chain grabs on. With his roll range being lower than most others and his get-up attack pointed away first, then towards, DDD is someone snake should feasibly be able to CG to death.

The downside to the whole match is when either character makes a mistake and it leads to heavy punishment. Again, should be heavy punishment from Snake's side. He does have the tools and methods to deal with anything DDD can try. Horizontal range in the air is so bad he can just walk out of range and ftilt/dash attack once DDD is in lag (taking care to realize the mode of how DDD hit the ground and react accordingly.) But in reality, DDD gets the guaranteed option of CG into a bad situation while Snake's guaranteed CG is riddled with opportunity for error.

Ideally, Snake should win. Realistically, I see its even. To the general public, it may as well be DDD's favor.

 

[MX778]

It's quite alright, I tend to fly off the handle but I rarely mean the aggression. You're wrong btw, I did mention Work Up. It's in the additional comments of the 2nd set.

@DMG's posts

either you secretly have a smogon account, play a lot of pokemon behind the scenes or you're a savant when in regards to anything competitive. ****sucking aside, everything you posted in response to bubba was on the mark.

I'd wish Mewtwo a happy birthday

but I resent it

so it just gets a "birthday" from me

Stephan? :0

and I agree with this. M002 wasn't really happy to begin with.

 

[bubbaking]

The only reason I see DDD vs Snake being in DDD favor is its much easier to screw over snake than a DDD.

The two are nearly even so many ways and ideally it should be Snake's favor, but it just doesn't come out that way in play.

To me, DDD my as well not even have a projectile. Its only when he gets lucky with the waddle dee and gordo that it makes any difference in play typically. Therefore, his coverage on the ground is outmatched by Snake. Thus, snake can play around outside of DDD's range without commitment.

Oh, and how is DDD going to get a reliable KO? Without commitment part, Snake will generally be able to have a cop out and avoid all KO situations that are grounded. If Snake is being hit by any of those moves Utilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or Usmash, then he chose the option that while might have gotten him to ground faster there was still the option to avoid being hit and thus live. Therefore, the typically KO move should be Fair or Bair from DDD. This contributes to Snake living a really long time unless DDD can manage to get an aerial gimp on snake near say 100% or something.

The chain grab is not that big of deal. Well, again it shouldn't be. Its guaranteed damage after a grab, but snake has the same option with player error coming into account. DDD fits into the notch of one of the few characters Snake should absolutely get free chain grabs on. With his roll range being lower than most others and his get-up attack pointed away first, then towards, DDD is someone snake should feasibly be able to CG to death.

The downside to the whole match is when either character makes a mistake and it leads to heavy punishment. Again, should be heavy punishment from Snake's side. He does have the tools and methods to deal with anything DDD can try. Horizontal range in the air is so bad he can just walk out of range and ftilt/dash attack once DDD is in lag (taking care to realize the mode of how DDD hit the ground and react accordingly.) But in reality, DDD gets the guaranteed option of CG into a bad situation while Snake's guaranteed CG is riddled with opportunity for error.

Ideally, Snake should win. Realistically, I see its even. To the general public, it may as well be DDD's favor.

The only reply I will say to this right now is that you clearly don't know much about DDD nor do you understand how this MU works.....

Edit: Guaranteed CG to death? Get out troll! We have no bridges for you to hide under!

 

[Shaya]

Dedede out camps snake if you're good at counting and power shielding at the same time.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Powershielding so overrated

Most things you can do out of a PS you could do anyway, the best option out of shield is almost always grab anyway

Don't get me wrong PS is good, but I think most people think it does an abundance of things it doesn't

Powershielding does two things: reduces shield drop frames to 0, and dramatically reduces shield pushback. For luigi (and ICs to a lesser extent), that's great. For snake, it can be pretty good for ensuring tilts against some faster options. For everyone else, it's situationally strong. All of our shield calculations are done assuming a powershield. if a move is -5 on shield, it's -5 on PS, not -5 on regular shield and 0 on PS or anything else. Powershielding is basically turning all non-grab, non-JC moves into good OOS options, but in most cases they would have been good options anyway because characters in this game are laggy as **** on shield.

That means for example that PSing fox's bair, which is +4 on shield, gets you almost nothing. He can still bair your shield and then jab you before you can do anything. And since players generally use only safer moves to attack/approach anyway, it's even less profound. :/

 

[bubbaking]

@Shaya: I'm sorry but I really don't think so. DDD out-camping......Snake? If someone could prove it, that would be awesome, but I've never seen it done before.

@SFP: Actually, I'm pretty sure PS's allow DDD to punish Snake's tilts more often. For instance, I believe a PS lets DDD more easily punish, via a shieldgrab, Snake's spaced utilt.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's because it reduces shield pushback. Grab OOS is not faster than Grab out of PS.

 

[bubbaking]

It doesn't reduce shield stun? Also, reduced shield drop sounds pretty nice 'cause of utilt and dtilt.