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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
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It's been degenerating the past few months. Or unless you don't want to go that far back... Gheb and the Mewtwo talk first being announced.
So... Yeah.
Were the japanese players voicing their amazement towards Salem's ZSS? I wonder if she'll get a buff in usage over in Japan.
Were the japanese players voicing their amazement towards Salem's ZSS? I wonder if she'll get a buff in usage over in Japan.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Kewkky, will you admit ZSS is better than Kirby now? 
<3
<3
In all honesty, I don't even have to admit it, ZSS's been more awesome in the competitive scene than Kirby for a few years now.Kewkky, will you admit ZSS is better than Kirby now?
I still think they're both too cool for me to not use either. I honestly can't decide on a main yet.
She's been going up in tiers slowly since the game's release, but was at a relatively low point before. I can only assume that it was because she was different than the rest of the cast, just like some other characters. Characters usually have great fsmashes, but she doesn't. They also have some form of vertically-ascending upB, while she doesn't and could get gimped by people simply hangong on the ledge (back then we didn't know how intricate footstools were, or how her intricacies function exactly). Her moves lacked a lot of punch, her shorthop went too high to do any useful OoS options, and her grab was (and still is) pretty crappy. While the general metagame evolved, so did hers, and people started figuring out how good she really is -- but she's still a "different" character to use. And that's where we're at right now.
As for her being finally in B tier, hmm... I haven't had the time nor bandwidth to keep up with the metagame since like July 2012, so I probably shouldn't throw out my opinion.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
The explanation for ZSS' initial tier position (21st or 22nd, one below Zelda) was that she only really had side-b. That's literally what it said, like, "all side-b, easily gimped"
Aaven
Vagabond With Flowers ~
She's such a unique character, it's really a shame that AZ has zero ZSS representation.
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
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ZSS overall doesn't have much representation. I think there are like 2 or 3 in the entire Mexican community lol.
Hey guys, just a tip? Getting the thread closed is only cool when Toronto does it.
Kewkky I can't decide on a main either.
Kewkky I can't decide on a main either.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I like Kirby. I don't think he's as bad as people say, he's just not good enough or interesting enough to be worth mastering.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
$50 MM anyone from Nc (besides Mekos) or Grim?
SoulPech
Smash Master
I would like to see Seagull vs Grim :3.
This is not the place to be asking this, Joe. This is the tier list thread, it's a very important thread here on SWF, and such blatant disregard for the topic should not be tolerated. And why are you still so scared of Lucas? He is a bad character, as this topic so handily points out in the first post.$50 MM anyone from Nc (besides Mekos) or Grim?
Also Pidgeot sucks.
Don't forget that Jolteon sucks too
This is not the place to be asking this, Joe. This is the tier list thread, it's a very important thread here on SWF, and such blatant disregard for the topic should not be tolerated. And why are you still so scared of Lucas? He is a bad character, as this topic so handily points out in the first post.
Also Pidgeot sucks.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
My plan is to go to Melbourne in October for a major tourney there (crossing from state to state isn't as easy as it is in USA >_>); if I place in the money for either game then I'll go to USA early next year.
I have basically no Wolf experience but I'd be happy to MM, perhaps not $50 though. I'd do an amount like that in a MU I'm more confident in (any top tier).
I have basically no Wolf experience but I'd be happy to MM, perhaps not $50 though. I'd do an amount like that in a MU I'm more confident in (any top tier).
bubbaking
Smash Hero
So this is what this convo has degraded to. Lolz! 
I leave for a week and the thread's gone to heck. 
I leave for a week and the thread's gone to heck. 
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
alright im actually gonna not troll and start a legitimate discussion.
item play.
a lot of players at all levels have a hard time handling items properly. this is a common problem for many people who do not main/second characters like diddy, snake, zss, toonlink, wario, peach, and rob (not so much the latter 2 as their particular items aren't as useful as the former 2). while everyone knows how to glide toss, a lot of players forget that instant catch, instant throw, and jump-cancel item toss even exist. being able to perform these things is absolutely necessary (not so much the latter as it is character specific) when fighting against characters with items and needless to say most people are really bad with items. even though traditional item play is turned off in tournament item play is still an important fundamental of this game that is all too often over looked.
fun fact, did you know that a lot of characters are better with a particular item than the character who spawns it? if people were good at all of their item specific traits they would find these characters far easier challenges than they currently are. for example did you know than fox's jump cancel toss slides the same distance as diddy's glide toss? did you know pit can dribble and full stage banana lock just like diddy but only if he uses his jump cancel toss? did you know that metaknight can glide toss to dtilt and if the dtilt trips (and it has a 1/3 chance) that mk can start a footstool grizinfinite on diddy?
also some general item ATs that go unused are things like picking up items with dacus AND bdacus, with dash attack cancel grab (which lets you grab the opponent and pick the item up at the same time allowing a lot of true combos out of throws that go unseen and unused). there is no excuse to be bad with items this far into the metagame.
discuss item play
item play.
a lot of players at all levels have a hard time handling items properly. this is a common problem for many people who do not main/second characters like diddy, snake, zss, toonlink, wario, peach, and rob (not so much the latter 2 as their particular items aren't as useful as the former 2). while everyone knows how to glide toss, a lot of players forget that instant catch, instant throw, and jump-cancel item toss even exist. being able to perform these things is absolutely necessary (not so much the latter as it is character specific) when fighting against characters with items and needless to say most people are really bad with items. even though traditional item play is turned off in tournament item play is still an important fundamental of this game that is all too often over looked.
fun fact, did you know that a lot of characters are better with a particular item than the character who spawns it? if people were good at all of their item specific traits they would find these characters far easier challenges than they currently are. for example did you know than fox's jump cancel toss slides the same distance as diddy's glide toss? did you know pit can dribble and full stage banana lock just like diddy but only if he uses his jump cancel toss? did you know that metaknight can glide toss to dtilt and if the dtilt trips (and it has a 1/3 chance) that mk can start a footstool grizinfinite on diddy?
also some general item ATs that go unused are things like picking up items with dacus AND bdacus, with dash attack cancel grab (which lets you grab the opponent and pick the item up at the same time allowing a lot of true combos out of throws that go unseen and unused). there is no excuse to be bad with items this far into the metagame.
discuss item play
H1N1
Smash Journeyman
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you being overrated has inflated your ego so much...$50 MM anyone from Nc (besides Mekos) or Grim?
NC replies: rofl
ぱみゅ
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That's why I dislike when people say "Diddy/ZSS/Wario/etc players use items, therefore they are good with them". That's simply stupid, everyone (specially at top level) should be expected to know item usage and what to do with them, isn't even about experience, it's all about techskill, knowledge and non-neutral decision taking.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I've been saying that item play has probably been a major reason that certain MUs, especially the ones involving Diddy and ZSS (and Peach), are as bad/good as they are for a really long time now. Most of these MUs can be changed dramatically with good item usage and improved reactions.
Tl;dr (HOW???) - Get better with items, because it makes all of those MUs so much more manageable, and it opens up avenues that actually remove a lot of the item-creating chars' advantages.
Tl;dr (HOW???) - Get better with items, because it makes all of those MUs so much more manageable, and it opens up avenues that actually remove a lot of the item-creating chars' advantages.
If only there was a mostly comprehensive list on relevant item ATs that's been linked in tier list threads a million times...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309846
[COLLAPSE="If you're too lazy to look at it"]Item pick-up- When next to the item, press the “A” button and your character will pick up the item next to you. Not every character has the same range in which they can pick up an item from.
Smash throw- Throwing an item as hard as your character can. Use the C-stick or hit the analog stick all the way (as if you were doing a smash attack) and hit “A.”
Tilt throw- Throwing an item softer than a smash throw. Tilt the analog stick (as if you were going to do a tilt) and press “A.” You will throw the item less far and it will do less damage on hit.
Z-catch- While in the air, press “Z” to catch an item with no lag
Z-drop- While in the air, with an item in your hand, press “Z” to drop the item with no lag
Fair zoning while holding a banana- While you SH, Z-drop the banana and the immediately FF fair. You’ll zone with fair as normal, while keeping constant control over the banana. Alternatively, delaying your FF, or Z-dropping while you rise from you SH will cause you to not catch the banana making it cover your landing somewhat.
Air dodge catching- While an item is coming at you in the air, you can air dodge to catch the item. However, you go through the entire duration of the air dodge so this can be baited and punished fairly easily.
Instant throw- While air dodge catching an item, you can cancel the air dodge in the very beginning by throwing the item with either a smash throw or a tilt throw. You can throw the item in all four directions (up, down, left, and right).
Rising instant throw- While an item is on the ground next to you, you can buffer an instant throw out of you jump so you will throw the item on the ground as you rise upwards.
Instant throw on landing- This one is probably the hardest variation of instant throwing (although still fairly simple). Air dodge into the ground as you are about to land but delay you air dodge as late as possible and then as you land, input a throw. You will throw the item as you land on it and you won’t suffer landing lag. (Not sure if this removes RCO lag. Someone should test it for me since I don’t have my wii anymore). This greatly lessens the effect of bananas trapping your landings. A good reason you don’t want to land with an aerial while Diddy has a banana in his hand.
Instant throwing (as a ledge option)- If you are on the ledge with a banana near the ledge, you can fall off from the ledge, jump onto the stage and instant throw the banana as you pass it or land on it. Diddys will do this frequently to you. Use it against him and be prepared for him to use it vs. you.
Glide tossing- While an item is in your hand, you can cancel a roll with a smash throw (if you cancel it with a tilt throw it is referred to as a “weak glidetoss”). Most characters have eight glide tosses (sliding forward while throwing up, down, left, and right; sliding backwards while throwing up, down, left, and right). Marth, however, has between ten and sixteen different glidetosses. He has the normal eight glidetosses that every other character has (sans Yoshi of course). However, he additionally has a short glidetosses, sliding forward while throwing the item down and forward. I’ve been told that all eight of his glidetosses have shortened versions, but I’ve never been able to do them outside of the two aforementioned ones.
Glidetoss on landing- Very similarly to instant throwing on landing, you can delay your air dodge into the ground and grab the item using that. You can then buffer a glidetoss so that you glidetoss as soon as you land. This also lessens the effectiveness of landing traps and offers a good counter approach and escape option if you’re feeling pressured.
Glidetoss out of a run- While running, press shield and instantly input a glide toss. You’ll glide toss out of a run with almost no downtime between the two depending on how long you let your shield stay up before the glidetoss comes out.
Invincible item drop- Air dodge and immediately afterwards, press “A” (not simultaneously). This will have your character drop the item (like they would for a Z-drop) while air dodging. Useful for getting out of juggles.
DACIT (Dash Attack Canceled Item Toss)- Very similar to a DACUS. You initiate a dash attack and cancel it with an item throw. If you do the exact same input as a DACUS, you will throw the item up. Extrapolate from there. This results in a significantly shorter slide than a glidetoss would give you.
JCIT (Jump Canceled Item Toss)- Mostly useful while running. Input a jump then cancel it in your character’s jump squat frames with an item throw (basically the same as a JCgrab in melee). This give almost no slide.
Item pick-up (while running)- Usually while running, pressing “A” to pick up an item results in a dash attack while picking up an item on the ground. However, while running (NOT during an initial dash) if you press “A” when you get to the item and let the analog stick fall back to neutral, you will pick up the item and stop running.
Z-drop speedhug (thank you Kadaj!)- While you are speedhugging, you are considered to be off the stage and in the air for a VERY short amount of time. During this period of time, you can Z-drop an item as you are grabbing the ledge. If Diddy is being required to recover vertically it’s a close to guaranteed gimp.[/COLLAPSE]
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309846
[COLLAPSE="If you're too lazy to look at it"]Item pick-up- When next to the item, press the “A” button and your character will pick up the item next to you. Not every character has the same range in which they can pick up an item from.
Smash throw- Throwing an item as hard as your character can. Use the C-stick or hit the analog stick all the way (as if you were doing a smash attack) and hit “A.”
Tilt throw- Throwing an item softer than a smash throw. Tilt the analog stick (as if you were going to do a tilt) and press “A.” You will throw the item less far and it will do less damage on hit.
Z-catch- While in the air, press “Z” to catch an item with no lag
Z-drop- While in the air, with an item in your hand, press “Z” to drop the item with no lag
Fair zoning while holding a banana- While you SH, Z-drop the banana and the immediately FF fair. You’ll zone with fair as normal, while keeping constant control over the banana. Alternatively, delaying your FF, or Z-dropping while you rise from you SH will cause you to not catch the banana making it cover your landing somewhat.
Air dodge catching- While an item is coming at you in the air, you can air dodge to catch the item. However, you go through the entire duration of the air dodge so this can be baited and punished fairly easily.
Instant throw- While air dodge catching an item, you can cancel the air dodge in the very beginning by throwing the item with either a smash throw or a tilt throw. You can throw the item in all four directions (up, down, left, and right).
Rising instant throw- While an item is on the ground next to you, you can buffer an instant throw out of you jump so you will throw the item on the ground as you rise upwards.
Instant throw on landing- This one is probably the hardest variation of instant throwing (although still fairly simple). Air dodge into the ground as you are about to land but delay you air dodge as late as possible and then as you land, input a throw. You will throw the item as you land on it and you won’t suffer landing lag. (Not sure if this removes RCO lag. Someone should test it for me since I don’t have my wii anymore). This greatly lessens the effect of bananas trapping your landings. A good reason you don’t want to land with an aerial while Diddy has a banana in his hand.
Instant throwing (as a ledge option)- If you are on the ledge with a banana near the ledge, you can fall off from the ledge, jump onto the stage and instant throw the banana as you pass it or land on it. Diddys will do this frequently to you. Use it against him and be prepared for him to use it vs. you.
Glide tossing- While an item is in your hand, you can cancel a roll with a smash throw (if you cancel it with a tilt throw it is referred to as a “weak glidetoss”). Most characters have eight glide tosses (sliding forward while throwing up, down, left, and right; sliding backwards while throwing up, down, left, and right). Marth, however, has between ten and sixteen different glidetosses. He has the normal eight glidetosses that every other character has (sans Yoshi of course). However, he additionally has a short glidetosses, sliding forward while throwing the item down and forward. I’ve been told that all eight of his glidetosses have shortened versions, but I’ve never been able to do them outside of the two aforementioned ones.
Glidetoss on landing- Very similarly to instant throwing on landing, you can delay your air dodge into the ground and grab the item using that. You can then buffer a glidetoss so that you glidetoss as soon as you land. This also lessens the effectiveness of landing traps and offers a good counter approach and escape option if you’re feeling pressured.
Glidetoss out of a run- While running, press shield and instantly input a glide toss. You’ll glide toss out of a run with almost no downtime between the two depending on how long you let your shield stay up before the glidetoss comes out.
Invincible item drop- Air dodge and immediately afterwards, press “A” (not simultaneously). This will have your character drop the item (like they would for a Z-drop) while air dodging. Useful for getting out of juggles.
DACIT (Dash Attack Canceled Item Toss)- Very similar to a DACUS. You initiate a dash attack and cancel it with an item throw. If you do the exact same input as a DACUS, you will throw the item up. Extrapolate from there. This results in a significantly shorter slide than a glidetoss would give you.
JCIT (Jump Canceled Item Toss)- Mostly useful while running. Input a jump then cancel it in your character’s jump squat frames with an item throw (basically the same as a JCgrab in melee). This give almost no slide.
Item pick-up (while running)- Usually while running, pressing “A” to pick up an item results in a dash attack while picking up an item on the ground. However, while running (NOT during an initial dash) if you press “A” when you get to the item and let the analog stick fall back to neutral, you will pick up the item and stop running.
Z-drop speedhug (thank you Kadaj!)- While you are speedhugging, you are considered to be off the stage and in the air for a VERY short amount of time. During this period of time, you can Z-drop an item as you are grabbing the ledge. If Diddy is being required to recover vertically it’s a close to guaranteed gimp.[/COLLAPSE]
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I don't think it's that no one expects other characters to know how to use items, it's more that characters with items get a thousand times more practice with them because they spend more time playing the characters that spawn them.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yoshi is High Tier with items.
SoulPech
Smash Master
Jigglypuff is high tier w/ a fan.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
^ Thats actually pretty sad if you think about it lol.
But items solve Yoshi's main problem, OoS options, as you can throw items out of shield instantly with him. Then you add in all the crazy item things you can do with DR, and factor in Yoshi's insane overall mobility, and boom, a force to be reckoned with.
And its not like theres no proof or data to back it up, Delta DID win All Brawl. Yoshi with items = OP.
But items solve Yoshi's main problem, OoS options, as you can throw items out of shield instantly with him. Then you add in all the crazy item things you can do with DR, and factor in Yoshi's insane overall mobility, and boom, a force to be reckoned with.
And its not like theres no proof or data to back it up, Delta DID win All Brawl. Yoshi with items = OP.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Yeah, Sonic is ridiculous with items too, especially with the Smashball loool
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Then why aren't you arguing for a better MU against Diddy (or are you)?
Didn't All-Brawl feature random everything, including characters?
Read top reply but add Peach.Sonic's an unholy monster with items.
Funfact in case you didn't know: Sonic can grab items while spinning.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Actually, we are arguing for Yoshi v Diddy to be -1 lol.
And even if it did, it shows how godlike Yoshi players are with items, so imagine that skill on Yoshi.
And even if it did, it shows how godlike Yoshi players are with items, so imagine that skill on Yoshi.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Shutup Tyler
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Oh, that makes sense then.
And that makes sense, too.
And that makes sense, too.
Dekillsage
Smash Lord
RaptorTEC
Smash Champion
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