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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Luco

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Unrelated, but Salem winning Apex was the best thing to happen to the community though. It really was a God given plan, because I have a feeling a lot of people would have quit if MK won, and Salem winning seemed to bring up the competitive spirit in a lot of players and even some veterans.
I actually REALLY agree with this. To see Apex won by Salem really refreshed me and gave me the need to keep trying with my character. It's nice to know that Brawl isn't so bad that MK is always guaranteed to win, you know? Cause I hear that so much.

All Salem winning APEX did was prove to me that our top players are lazy as hell. :applejack:
Well that's to be expected, isn't it? Ages of winning large-scale tournies and they're finally faced with something challenging that they're unsure how to cope with. They may have been lazy but I can't exactly blame them and I don't think that takes away from the fact that a ZSS main WON apex. Not come 2nd or 3rd. Won.

IMO ZSS hasn't really shown good results other than Apex and if she were to move anywhere in the tier list she would probably move down.

The people that Salem beat simply didn't know the match-up against a mediocre character.

Anyone who thinks that ZSS should move up the tier list is either crazy or trolling.
I totally disagree. Didn't know the MU against SALEM, perhaps... but NR and V115 are formidable players and most people have the general hang of how she works.

She's high tier dude. Pretty much always has been lol
I think people are under-rating the importance of it though. Lucas getting 9th at SKTAR was enough for many to go 'he should be mid tier', I don't see how this is largely different. If she didn't win, I might think differently but really, coming first amongst the top players in the world... either she's top tier or I can finally murder anyone who tries to say that brawl is 'unbalanced trash' (well, unbalanced will still be true, but less so). What i'm saying is that she came out on top of all the other characters that could've... I think that's justification for top tier.






Sorry for the rant, just my 2 cents.
 

Espy Rose

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No. It's not to be expected.
I expect a top level player to have a better understanding of this game and its characters. :applejack:
 

Luco

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No. It's not to be expected.
I expect a top level player to have a better understanding of this game and its characters. :applejack:
But the way our meta game works, they rarely do. :urg:

Granted they may be lazy but as I said, can you blame them?

What i'm trying to say is, top players don't have to know everything, they're top because they get the results and do well with what they have. Unexpected things can still trump you and Salem's strategy is new, to say the least. There's a difference between being a top player and TAS: One knows everything about it's surroundings, the other only knows a heck of a lot.
 

Orion*

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When you're in charge of balancing a game (an act we've taken upon ourselves more or less) balancing around "effort" or "skill" in determining if something is too strong is absolutely ludicrous. If it's too strong, it's too strong. If you aren't assuming 100% execution you're just doing it wrong.
Well from someone making a rule sets point of view I agree with you. However if you are in charge of actually balancing a game, making something with high reward like that take practice either in terms of application, setup, practicality or technical skill would make a lot of sense. When you're making a ruleset we can't change those, things, and because of that there's not even a point to arguing difficulty in the first place.

But in terms of development, you are wrong. Skill is arbitrary, yes we know from the millions of copy pasta smashboards arguments. However, skill is definitely something to reward in a game otherwise it becomes to degenerate or simply random. Like imagine if randomly we found out if you dthrow with olimar you get a free insta star KOed with zero techskill required. Literally was easy enough to do from the moment you found out about.

Now in this case you're ruling for this kind of thing is very black and white. It's OP, so we can ban it. However if it was literally so hard to do that you'd expect to see it happen 1-2 times a set, because you had to be literally frame perfect off of a grab confirm. Obviously it's still OP, and bannable from a technical standpoint in regards to how the game runs from a theory crafted point of view.

However from a tournament players point of view, when only like .01% of players have the technical capacity and reactions to pull it off from many long hours of dedication, in comparison to anyone literally picking olimar it becomes less ridiculous to deal with. TOs that ban things like that without it even generally effecting the metagame would probably have to deal with a lot of slack from their players.

Your point of view from a mechanical standpoint once again is fairly sound, and I generally agree with it. But that doesn't change what actually happens in the real world, and I think instead of adopting black and white views having a shade of grey would make more sense in a ruleset, simply because we are people. People aren't that black and white, and they are the people that attend events.

Regardless, from a balancing or development standpoint, which is what you posted, I would have to disagree with you.
 

DMG

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In that scenario, I'd still probably ban the tactic. The minimal impact it would have in those .01% instances would be pretty close to the impact you would make on banning those .01% instances.
 

Dekillsage

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MK isn't doing quite good enough anymore, his mains are getting lazy... we must make a ruleset change to un-nerf MK so he wins the correct proportion of the tournies. GET TO IT.
Omg you're amazing LOL
I think people are under-rating the importance of it though. Lucas getting 9th at SKTAR was enough for many to go 'he should be mid tier', I don't see how this is largely different. If she didn't win, I might think differently but really, coming first amongst the top players in the world... either she's top tier or I can finally murder anyone who tries to say that brawl is 'unbalanced trash' (well, unbalanced will still be true, but less so). What i'm saying is that she came out on top of all the other characters that could've... I think that's justification for top tier.
She's high tier. Can't say the players at apex knew the MU when the Metaknights let her recover over and over. Salem only had to fight 3 characters if I recall correctly. Wolf(kain),2 marths and then the rest were MK's. He didn't play any snakes, Olimars, Ics, Falcos etc. If she continues to do well after people learn the matchup then I'll consider her top. As of right now I'm not really convinced. :urg:
No. It's not to be expected.
I expect a top level player to have a better understanding of this game and its characters. :applejack:
Why would they? They play MetaKnight :denzel:
 
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Yea, to be fair ZSS is probably the character that most requires match-up knowledge in the game. Most of a given character's bread and butter stuff doesn't work as well, you have to take alternate approaches to the MU (that are still effective).
 

DeLux

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Yea, to be fair ZSS is probably the character that most requires match-up knowledge in the game. Most of a given character's bread and butter stuff doesn't work as well, you have to take alternate approaches to the MU (that are still effective).
Ice Climbers
 

Yobolight

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ZSS should move down to borderline IMO she just isn't that good and aside from Apex she hasn't really shown the results needed to make her top tier.

She is like the easiest character in the game to beat if you know the matchup. While watching the Apex matches of Salem I was almost angry at how horribly Otori and M2K played the matchup they just didn't do it right.

She is overrated as she is, lets not make her more overrated.
 

C.J.

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ZSS should move down to borderline IMO she just isn't that good and aside from Apex she hasn't really shown the results needed to make her top tier.

She is like the easiest character in the game to beat if you know the matchup. While watching the Apex matches of Salem I was almost angry at how horribly Otori and M2K played the matchup they just didn't do it right.

She is overrated as she is, lets not make her more overrated.
Yeah, not sure who you are, but, you're wrong.

ZSS has consistent results going back to MLG with consistent, respectable placings, from V115, NR, Salem, etc all of which have been indicative of her deserving to rise; she is probably better than Wario.

She is not one of the easiest characters in the game to beat if you know the MU at all. Her tools are still solid and she has a large number of safe options. That's not to say M2k/Otori/MN/Ramin played the MUs perfectly, but ZSS is not bad at all and certainly doesn't deserve to move DOWN when she's been deserving of a rise for awhile now.
 

Dark.Pch

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Yeah, not sure who you are, but, you're wrong.

ZSS has consistent results going back to MLG with consistent, respectable placings, from V115, NR, Salem, etc all of which have been indicative of her deserving to rise; she is probably better than Wario.

She is not one of the easiest characters in the game to beat if you know the MU at all. Her tools are still solid and she has a large number of safe options. That's not to say M2k/Otori/MN/Ramin played the MUs perfectly, but ZSS is not bad at all and certainly doesn't deserve to move DOWN when she's been deserving of a rise for awhile now.
This is where I have to draw the line and ask a question. At what point is " not playing a match up right" valid. It seems when something great happens with a character that people never expect to achieve, people wanna dish out these excuses.

I would actually be ok with it if all things were viewed like this from the other side. I assure you if Salem was to lose the set, no one would be saying M2K played the match up wrong. Playing the exact same way as he did getting him second place. Cause it's M2K and its meta knight, he gets first, we not view the match up closely and see that M2K was playing bad. Nor would people have said Salem was playing bad. Cause going by the pubic, he should be losing. Cause "omg its M2K and meta knight, character better then ZSS could not beat him, so there must be some reason a ZSS did"

Here is something else to think about. If I was to actually by this bad playing logic, there is not one ZSS that would have beaten M2K playing the way he did. Let M2K play the same way against the other ZSS and see the results. I bet there is not one ZSS that would beat him.

Bad play is always pointed out by people when stupid characters lose to other characters people think are not so good or should not be winning in great aspects. I see and hear this all the time.

And this goes for all characters. Stupid over used high tiers beat a mid tier player. Mid tier player did not know what he was doing. Peoples eyes, The match up was played fine and mid tier player lost cause of a disadvantage. While not taking into account he did not play well to increase his chances of getting a possible win.


If the mid tier player was to win, something went wrong, the high/top tier was doing something wrong, he not play the match up right (which for this example, he actually did) Cause he is a stupid over used high/top tier and by law not suppose to lose no matter what.

It is never the other way around is it? No one ever questions this for past results unless the high tier player loses. If he wins, he just got bopped, the mid/low tier player play the match up correct to make his chances as high as possible?

Now I know I am gonna have 100000 people on my case for this and start making fun of me, the usual. Idc. I can't agree with this. Americans don't know how to take a lose. Without there being some twist.
 

C.J.

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I never claimed that they didn't play the MU well. All I said was that they didn't play it perfectly.

After all, realistically, how often does anyone play any MU perfectly?
 

Jrugs

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This is where I have to draw the line and ask a question. At what point is " not playing a match up right" valid. It seems when something great happens with a character that people never expect to achieve, people wanna dish out these excuses.

I would actually be ok with it if all things were viewed like this from the other side. I assure you if Salem was to lose the set, no one would be saying M2K played the match up wrong. Playing the exact same way as he did getting him second place. Cause it's M2K and its meta knight, he gets first, we not view the match up closely and see that M2K was playing bad. Nor would people have said Salem was playing bad. Cause going by the pubic, he should be losing. Cause "omg its M2K and meta knight, character better then ZSS could not beat him, so there must be some reason a ZSS did"

Here is something else to think about. If I was to actually by this bad playing logic, there is not one ZSS that would have beaten M2K playing the way he did. Let M2K play the same way against the other ZSS and see the results. I bet there is not one ZSS that would beat him.

Bad play is always pointed out by people when stupid characters lose to other characters people think are not so good or should not be winning in great aspects. I see and hear this all the time.

And this goes for all characters. Stupid over used high tiers beat a mid tier player. Mid tier player did not know what he was doing. Peoples eyes, The match up was played fine and mid tier player lost cause of a disadvantage. While not taking into account he did not play well to increase his chances of getting a possible win.


If the mid tier player was to win, something went wrong, the high/top tier was doing something wrong, he not play the match up right (which for this example, he actually did) Cause he is a stupid over used high/top tier and by law not suppose to lose no matter what.

It is never the other way around is it? No one ever questions this for past results unless the high tier player loses. If he wins, he just got bopped, the mid/low tier player play the match up correct to make his chances as high as possible?

Now I know I am gonna have 100000 people on my case for this and start making fun of me, the usual. Idc. I can't agree with this. Americans don't know how to take a lose. Without there being some twist.
I already did this angry rant http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15265362&postcount=12436
 

infiniteV115

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I spoke to Salem right after he beat Otori and he told me that Otori is bad against ZSS (which is exactly what I was thinking while watching them play and also what I said when I saw Otori vs Kamemushi).
 

Djent

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Why does Salem's victory require a rethinking of :zssbrawl:'s matchups anyway? People see something like +1 :metaknightbrawl: and think OMG UNWINNABLE!!1 but if you actually think about what that number means (slight advantage lolol), then someone overcoming it doesn't require rethinking much. It just requires acknowledging that someone played well enough to overcome a small deficit - and if anyone watched Salem play, he did way better than that. :smirk:
 

Z'zgashi

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Salem winning just shows ZSS deserves the High Tier spot that shes deserved even prior to Apex lol. And even if Salem won due to inexperience in match ups on Otori and M2Ks part, you still have to be ****ing good at this game, be good with your character, AND play a good character to beat two of the best players IN THE WORLD back to back, and in the case of M2K, twice.

Im sorry, but anyone who thinks someone playing a non Top/High tier character could do the same, even with the lack of match up experience, is either insane or stupid.
 

Djent

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I agree that winning requires a convergence of skill and character power. However, I wouldn't define character power in terms of tier position but character matchups. I could theoretically win a large tournament with :dededebrawl: if I had a bracket full of :marthbrawl: :snakebrawl: and :wariobrawl: instead of :metaknightbrawl: :icsbrawl: and :olimarbrawl:. Salem had a bracket of :marthbrawl: and :metaknightbrawl: which everyone pretty much agrees that :zssbrawl: can beat. Now it may be true that :zssbrawl: deserves to move up into High Tier, but if that's true it *won't* be because a good player won a tournament with her. Rather, it would be because her matchups are good (something I think you can make a case for), which itself was the reason she was able to win in the first place.

:072: :169: :salamace:
 

Dark.Pch

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I never claimed that they didn't play the MU well. All I said was that they didn't play it perfectly.
I'm talking in general, for the people that keep using this excuse.

After all, realistically, how often does anyone play any MU perfectly?
Then it it should never be brought up at all. Yet people do it when something such as the event at apex happens. They never bring it up to the other side (the character that people claim suck and don't matter at high levels)

I have a good example for you. Peach plays an top MK. All this MK does is short hop dair 2 to 3 times to nado. That's it, this was his only means to get her in the air of off stage for cheap kills. This is all he knows in that match up. If the Peach player was to lose, I assure you people would think Meta play the match up correctly and so did peach. There was nothing Peach could do about it. The player did the best he could. And he was suppose to lose.

Here is where I call BS. If Meta Short hops dairs, Peach can go in and full hop dair, hitting him out of it. If the Peach sucks at it and does not wanna risk it, The player can wait for a nado approach and Fsmash him. Which is Peach best and safe option. If Peach ever gets caught in the move, she is one of the better characters in the game that pops out like 80% of the time and can get a free nair. So this would mean that If Meta tornados peach, he puts himself in a bad position 80% of the time with tornado. For it leads to a free hit. Tornado would cause me about 4 % -10%. While he takes 13% from a nair out of his nado. And this is SERIOUSLY not hard to do at all.

Now meta can't really nado Peach or short hop dair for free. he does not know what else too do. He is now aware of being punished by this and Peach does not have to worry about is as much, giving more of a chance to get in and beat the hell out of the fool. Meta would just depend on luck to win now. Just doing stuff and hope it works. Knowledge > luck.

See what I mean now? if Peach would have lost, people think MK was playing the match up right and nothing peach could have done about it. Which is a lie. People will always look at the best options of winning and make an excuse for their loses. But they would never look at the characters that don't matter so much in peoples eyes and think suck. This is how we improve metagames? This is how we work together to make the game more fun and balanced? This is how we learn our options?

This is why people lose to the same thing all the time instead of taking a hint then maybe there was something about the enemy you did not know about before. Something new and discovered that is getting you good and actually legit in the match up. It's always cause match up was played bad since you been winning like this for a long time. Give credit to thus players that actually get butts handed to them to take the time to try new things and be creative. Not relay on the same typical play all the time and hopes it works. Again, look at how long it took people to actually put down snake.

And you wanna know how my post holds more meaning then anything? How many times do I have to fair your shield and jab you to let you know you can not attack or grab after the fair. If I fair and Jab you can not punish that in between unless you are Marth You have to block or evade. This is 2013, and people (even top players) still try to attack/grab
me out of shield after fair to jab. People depend that I mess up the spacing to get a grab that not even worth it. Cause most of the time, you are gonna get slapped. If you get a hit in, its cause I messed up. And that's what people hope fore alot. Dumb luck and never take a hint.
 

Kewkky

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Good job Salem, you make me proud to be a ZSS mainer. That's some serious stuff you pulled there man, too bad I couldn't watch you tear it up with our main from where I'm at.


ZSS is a good character, regardless of what people say. She's around or near the upper quarter of the character list, and that's all that anyone should care about.

Salem has some serious skills, and everyone should recognize that. Blaming his opponents at being inexperienced is detracting from the work he put into this victory. He did great, and he beat a lot of great players to get to where he got to. That should be the end of this discussion. Experienced or inexperienced doesn't matter. In the end, his opponents lost to him.

All of his opponents knew the matchup, they just didn't know how to react properly against Salem. They know what all his moves are, and which ones to watch out for. They know how comboable their characters are, and how comboable ZSS is. Salem simply outplayed his opponents, and that's why he won. That's the end of this argument.

Before anyone else throws around any more outrageous "didn't know the matchup" claims, if you're going to say the same thing, please point out what exactly is it that you need to know in order to "know the matchup". And please explain it as if we were top-level players, and don't be cryptic.
 

Dark.Pch

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People did not lose to Salem cause they did not know the match up. People lost cause they did not know Salem. You can know a match up and still lose if you expecting everyone to play and do the same typical stuff we gone see for a long time now. Same character, different ways of thinking and playing. And this is one thing people fail to understand and have for years. They expect the same typical stuff from all players with said character. And when a smart player realizes this and does things, their own creative way, it's cause they play the match up wrong? I don't think so. You played the opponent wrong, not the character.
 

Grim Tuesday

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And again I stress that Mew2King continuously up-b'd into side-b, glided into Salem haphazardly and started Tornados in unsafe positions.

Why should that be attributed to Salem playing well and not M2K playing poorly?

And no, if M2K won I wouldn't say he was playing the MU right. I watched the match on stream with a fellow smasher and I was calling out his mistakes before I knew that he was going to lose.
 

RaptorTEC

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I'm talking in general, for the people that keep using this excuse.



Then it it should never be brought up at all. Yet people do it when something such as the event at apex happens. They never bring it up to the other side (the character that people claim suck and don't matter at high levels)

I have a good example for you. Peach plays an top MK. All this MK does is short hop dair 2 to 3 times to nado. That's it, this was his only means to get her in the air of off stage for cheap kills. This is all he knows in that match up. If the Peach player was to lose, I assure you people would think Meta play the match up correctly and so did peach. There was nothing Peach could do about it. The player did the best he could. And he was suppose to lose.

Here is where I call BS. If Meta Short hops dairs, Peach can go in and full hop dair, hitting him out of it. If the Peach sucks at it and does not wanna risk it, The player can wait for a nado approach and Fsmash him. Which is Peach best and safe option. If Peach ever gets caught in the move, she is one of the better characters in the game that pops out like 80% of the time and can get a free nair. So this would mean that If Meta tornados peach, he puts himself in a bad position 80% of the time with tornado. For it leads to a free hit. Tornado would cause me about 4 % -10%. While he takes 13% from a nair out of his nado. And this is SERIOUSLY not hard to do at all.

Now meta can't really nado Peach or short hop dair for free. he does not know what else too do. He is now aware of being punished by this and Peach does not have to worry about is as much, giving more of a chance to get in and beat the hell out of the fool. Meta would just depend on luck to win now. Just doing stuff and hope it works. Knowledge > luck.

See what I mean now? if Peach would have lost, people think MK was playing the match up right and nothing peach could have done about it. Which is a lie. People will always look at the best options of winning and make an excuse for their loses. But they would never look at the characters that don't matter so much in peoples eyes and think suck. This is how we improve metagames? This is how we work together to make the game more fun and balanced? This is how we learn our options?

This is why people lose to the same thing all the time instead of taking a hint then maybe there was something about the enemy you did not know about before. Something new and discovered that is getting you good and actually legit in the match up. It's always cause match up was played bad since you been winning like this for a long time. Give credit to thus players that actually get butts handed to them to take the time to try new things and be creative. Not relay on the same typical play all the time and hopes it works. Again, look at how long it took people to actually put down snake.

And you wanna know how my post holds more meaning then anything? How many times do I have to fair your shield and jab you to let you know you can not attack or grab after the fair. If I fair and Jab you can not punish that in between unless you are Marth You have to block or evade. This is 2013, and people (even top players) still try to attack/grab
me out of shield after fair to jab. People depend that I mess up the spacing to get a grab that not even worth it. Cause most of the time, you are gonna get slapped. If you get a hit in, its cause I messed up. And that's what people hope fore alot. Dumb luck and never take a hint.
I really like this post. One thing though. I've been able to spotdodge inbetween Peaches jab after shielding the fair and punished with my own jab numerous times. Is this also them messing up or did you specifically mean punishing after the jab hits shield?

:phone:
 

Z'zgashi

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Yes, just like every other character.

Yoshi has the cool little bonus of adding distance to his backroll if he rolls back during shield stun though, its nice for resetting after blocking an attack.
 

Kewkky

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And again I stress that Mew2King continuously up-b'd into side-b, glided into Salem haphazardly and started Tornados in unsafe positions.
Maybe he was trying to force Salem to do certain things, but Salem kept outplaying his attempts. Maybe him flying within upB range of Salem was to try to get him to airdodge, or to get Salem feeling twitchy so he could get an easy gimp. Maybe he didn't know Salem knew how to handle glide attacks, unlike a large amount of other players who claim to know. Maybe he tornado'd all that time trying to find ANY way to get Salem in a juggling position or keep him there (since it IS a good juggling tool), but Salem already knew how to react to these attempts.

These things shouldn't just get attributed to M2K's lack of knowledge. That's tunnel vision right there.

Why should that be attributed to Salem playing well and not M2K playing poorly?
Why shouldn't it be?
 

Dark.Pch

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I really like this post. One thing though. I've been able to spotdodge inbetween Peaches jab after shielding the fair and punished with my own jab numerous times. Is this also them messing up or did you specifically mean punishing after the jab hits shield?

:phone:
Yes and no. Peach fair consist of 2 different frames for hit boxes. Frame 16 and 17. If I hit you from frame 16, it is -2 on block. Frame 17 is 0 on block. The average evasion (roll,spot dodge) leaves you open for 2 frames before you are invincible. So in this case If you were able to evade and get a jab out, it be cause I hit you with frame 16 of her fair. You move 2 frames before me, so before my jab connects, would would be invincible. If peach is mashing A in this case, you can spot dodge and punish her with your own jab. If I am gonna hit with frame 16, I have to jab cancel to stop your jabs.

If I hit you with frame 17, you can not evade. You will be hit out of your evasion. Frame 17 fair leads to 0 on block. So that would mean we can both move at the same time. if you evade as I jab You would get hit out of it since you open for 2 frames. And Peach jab is 2.

So in conclusion, if you get a evade and/or jab:

- Peach landed fair on frame 16
- Peach is Mashing Jab from fair on frame 16.
- Miss timed my Jab on frame 17 of fair.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Yes, just like every other character.
Well aren't you clever >_>
He doesn't have shield stun in Melee

Maybe he was trying to force Salem to do certain things, but Salem kept outplaying his attempts. Maybe him flying within upB range of Salem was to try to get him to airdodge, or to get Salem feeling twitchy so he could get an easy gimp. Maybe he didn't know Salem knew how to handle glide attacks, unlike a large amount of other players who claim to know. Maybe he tornado'd all that time trying to find ANY way to get Salem in a juggling position or keep him there (since it IS a good juggling tool), but Salem already knew how to react to these attempts.

These things shouldn't just get attributed to M2K's lack of knowledge. That's tunnel vision right there.

Why shouldn't it be?
If Salem *kept* out-playing his attempts, either M2K played very badly overall or he played the MU very badly overall. Getting hit the same thing in the same situations over and over isn't just getting out-played, it basically borders on unforced error :/

Either M2K was thinking "This should work because of ZSS' traits and Salem's habits", or he was thinking "a hurr durr durr". Your call.
 

C.J.

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Yes and no. Peach fair consist of 2 different frames for hit boxes. Frame 16 and 17. If I hit you from frame 16, it is -2 on block. Frame 17 is 0 on block. The average evasion (roll,spot dodge) leaves you open for 2 frames before you are invincible. So in this case If you were able to evade and get a jab out, it be cause I hit you with frame 16 of her fair. You move 2 frames before me, so before my jab connects, would would be invincible. If peach is mashing A in this case, you can spot dodge and punish her with your own jab. If I am gonna hit with frame 16, I have to jab cancel to stop your jabs.

If I hit you with frame 17, you can not evade. You will be hit out of your evasion. Frame 17 fair leads to 0 on block. So that would mean we can both move at the same time. if you evade as I jab You would get hit out of it since you open for 2 frames. And Peach jab is 2.

So in conclusion, if you get a evade and/or jab:

- Peach landed fair on frame 16
- Peach is Mashing Jab from fair on frame 16.
- Miss timed my Jab on frame 17 of fair.
Most spot dodges are invincible on frame 2 so jab should still miss
2-20/22 for link, tink, Falco, yoshi, pika
2-20/24 for Marth
2-20/25 for most of the cast
I forget the frame data for the bad ones

:phone:
 

Dark.Pch

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And people still discredit this guy. :awesome:

:phone:
Cause im emo and people just wanna poke fun at me despite what I know about this game and character. Simple human mentality in society.

Most spot dodges are invincible on frame 2 so jab should still miss
2-20/22 for link, tink, Falco, yoshi, pika
2-20/24 for Marth
2-20/25 for most of the cast
I forget the frame data for the bad ones

:phone:
Ok, so in this case, peach has to jab cancel to punish them out of spot dodge OR delay the second jab (no button mash) for the punish. You are still not free to spot dodge. And be safe.

That was my mistake, I always thought for some reason the average was 2. Least we got that clear up.
 

Kewkky

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If Salem *kept* out-playing his attempts, either M2K played very badly overall or he played the MU very badly overall. Getting hit the same thing in the same situations over and over isn't just getting out-played, it basically borders on unforced error :/

Either M2K was thinking "This should work because of ZSS' traits and Salem's habits", or he was thinking "a hurr durr durr". Your call.
It could go either way, I've never met the guy nor played against him, so i don't know how his thought process works. However I'm pretty certain that it wasn't because of "lack of knowledge". He's one of the most ventured Smash players ever, he's been at the top of the scene since the beginning, and has played numerous top ZSS players in the past (including Snakeee and Nick Riddle). Do you remember Nick's annihilation at the hands of M2K during MLG Columbus (I believe), right after a pretty good match against Ally (in which Nick Riddle won)? Seeing as how Nick was already considered a top ZSS player back then and had a lot of MK experience behind him from playing in Florida and traveling around, M2K still annihilated him. If this happened and M2K has a lack of knowledge on the MU, you're essentially calling Nick Riddle a failure of a ZSS main, as well as the entire ZSS community for being worse than Nick, and also implying that ZSS's metagame has yet to develop to its fullest.

At least, that's what I'm making of all this. It's looking more like M2K got outplayed more and more.
 
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