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Official BBR Tier List v7

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SL yes, Tornado I don't agree. It's a good punish when ZSS does something laggy but that's true in every match-up. In every other respect Tornado is pretty mediocre or bad vs. ZSS.

Tornado can't pop ZSS' shield if she tilts up, it almost breaks it first. If MK retreats to land far away there's almost no where he can hide, ZSS almost definitely punish it. If he sits on shield, he eats 11% from utilt. It isn't a bad move in the match-up, it's probably one of his best punishes but you can't use it at almost any other time, and it isn't as good as it is vs say, DK where you can just go NADO YOLO and win everything.
 

SaveMeJebus

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If ZSS has a slight disadvantage against MK, I don't see how Diddy can't go even with him. They both play pretty much the same except Diddy does it better.

:phone:
 
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Well, a few things. The number system isn't absolute, but a spectrum. There are a lot of different ways you can have a -1 match-up and for plenty of different reasons. Diddy has a better match-up, but neither of them are bad enough to be -2.

Second, I don't agree that they approach the match-up in the same way, unless you're referring to the item play. ZSS is really only similar to Diddy for one stock, but I would argue that for that one stock her item game is scarier than Diddy's overall. After that, ZSS is slightly worse.
 

Grim Tuesday

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I could go through the first match of that GF and point out every time M2K got punished for SL/tornado (and glide attack, now that I think about it)

But it'd save me the effort if you watch the video yourself
 

SoulPech

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IMO Grim, if you make a statement it's your job to prove it..not the other person. Just saiyan :). Also, :metaknight: is #1 and :zerosuitsamus: is like...#7/#8 I feel. :jigglypuff: will be #0 forever in my heart. MU is clearly in MK's favor..like +1 and Salem has a gauntlet of MKs in his area, so it's obvious he needed to learn the MU in order to become good.

It showed at Apex :awesome:

bored at work...i'm hungry.

:phone:
 

Grim Tuesday

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Well yeah I don't disagree with any of that...?

I dunno I assumed the statement in question was obvious enough that I didn't need to prove it; I think after watching that set on stream an image of ZSS' side-b cutting through Shuttle Loop was imprinted into my brain

EDIT: Also I just realized what you were getting at with your first post ****
 

Dekillsage

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SL yes, Tornado I don't agree. It's a good punish when ZSS does something laggy but that's true in every match-up. In every other respect Tornado is pretty mediocre or bad vs. ZSS.

Tornado can't pop ZSS' shield if she tilts up, it almost breaks it first. If MK retreats to land far away there's almost no where he can hide, ZSS almost definitely punish it. If he sits on shield, he eats 11% from utilt. It isn't a bad move in the match-up, it's probably one of his best punishes but you can't use it at almost any other time, and it isn't as good as it is vs say, DK where you can just go NADO YOLO and win everything.
Hm. Well to be honest I don't think MK players really mind taking that 11% as long as they've eaten your shield a little. You get a small punish and then they're nadoing your shield again. Then it breaks/ gets poked and now you're getting juggled. Zss can utilt and then start running but I don't know if she can really avoid the second nado.. I'd have to look at the videos more.(Or you could tell me)
Well yeah I don't disagree with any of that...?

I dunno I assumed the statement in question was obvious enough that I didn't need to prove it; I think after watching that set on stream an image of ZSS' side-b cutting through Shuttle Loop was imprinted into my brain

EDIT: Also I just realized what you were getting at with your first post ****
Zss is cool. She can punish MK in ways other characters can't. Mk players better stop mashing :denzel:
 

BSP

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nooo

we ban the broken ****, we don't ban things that are "good" or even things that are REALLY good
Yeah, we seem to have that disposition with regards to MK.

But, that makes me wonder...if we only ban broken stuff, why is double MK banned again? It's a strong team for sure, but is it broken?
 

BSP

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Broken because it's impossible to beat, or broken because it's extremely difficult to beat?
 

Seagull Joe

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The best team is :metaknight:/:lucario:. Anubis is too ****ing strong. Dying at 50% from :lucario:'s Fsmash because :lucario: has one stock and :metaknight: has 3 is so silly.

:snake:/:diddy: is a popular good team with no :metaknight: on it. Gnes/Razer used to run a train on teams. I think :pikachu2:+Teammate is also really good.

Best teams characters: :metaknight:, :lucario:, :wario:, :gw:, and :pikachu2: in my honest opinion. Convenient because none of the top tiers except :metaknight: and :pikachu2: hold as much weight in teams. The rest are gimmicks or large support.

:018:
 

Dark.Pch

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Banning something is just gonna create cry babies from one side. Leaving something unbanned will create crybabies from the other side. What should be answered is what do people gain from keeping something unbanned/allowed.

In this case, MK/Double MK.

Banned:

- More people would go back to their old mains and use them more in tournaments.
- Result list would look more versatile.
- Game would be alot more fun competitive (If anyone even care for that and not just getting money at all cost)
- People not be so chicken to work with mid tiers and below harder cause there isnt an MK for people to run too anymore and improve meta game.

Allowed:

- Can't beat em, join them. You will see alot of MK dittos and players in general
- people will stop using mid tiers and below, leaving hidden potential to be lost or undiscovered to improve metagames
- Game gets boring and repetitive pissing off alot of people in the community. The fun factor for competitive play is just about gone.
- People quit the game.

So what be the goal of the BBR? To make the game as balanced as possible? More fun? Characters will still have a hard time with other match ups. For teams It be a lil better in my eyes. But meta banned in tourny would just give something new for people to cry about. Which is IC and Olimar. Pocket IC have started to form more then before. IC and olimar would be the next thing people would start crying about.

If MK was to get banned, it be for one reason in my eyes. Compared to the rest of the cast, his weakness are seriously hard to punish, even if he makes a mistake. He is just too safe most of the time. And edguarding him nearly becomes a joke for most.

Remember how long it took people to finally figure out snake and put him down already. At one point people wanted him banned and snake was all over the top 8. What does snake do now? Even the best snakes can't hold their own in big tournies much like before.

So in conclusion, is something really this hard? Or are people just seriously lazy. Everyone needs to sit and think for 10 mins "Have I seriously done everything that I could? Have I abused all that I know effectively? Maybe I should think about and sit with someone for a while and practice some options." This is why I felt for a long time that MK should not be banned for people being lazy.

This is where I feel Salem (and the japanese) outclass the rest. They play with their options to create new ones and give it a try to see what works and does not. Salem has played M2K before and took games off him. Just could not take the set. He also lives in meta knight country. So not only does he play or sorts of MK, he trys new things out and have no fear. You don't have time to worry about how stupid and broken he is. That's not gonna get you the win. You already know you are at a disadvantage. Use what you have and be creative with your options. Playing so basic with said character cause of fear or just hoping for cheap play to work is not gonna do it. We seen this stuff for years already. it's the same thing all the time. That's one reason it took so long for people to figure out snake. And this payed off for Salem at apex

And quote from M2K himself

"Salem has NEVER played this good"
 
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Hm. Well to be honest I don't think MK players really mind taking that 11% as long as they've eaten your shield a little. You get a small punish and then they're nadoing your shield again. Then it breaks/ gets poked and now you're getting juggled. Zss can utilt and then start running but I don't know if she can really avoid the second nado.. I'd have to look at the videos more.(Or you could tell me)


Zss is cool. She can punish MK in ways other characters can't. Mk players better stop mashing :denzel:
First, 11% isn't the only issue, the other issue is that MK is now above ZSS which is a bad position for anyone, even MK.

Second, ZSS can avoid the second Nado for the most part. What you want to do as MK is poke her shield down with like, fair/tilts/whatever and then nado once it has taken some damage.
 

SaveMeJebus

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Well, a few things. The number system isn't absolute, but a spectrum. There are a lot of different ways you can have a -1 match-up and for plenty of different reasons. Diddy has a better match-up, but neither of them are bad enough to be -2.

Second, I don't agree that they approach the match-up in the same way, unless you're referring to the item play. ZSS is really only similar to Diddy for one stock, but I would argue that for that one stock her item game is scarier than Diddy's overall. After that, ZSS is slightly worse.
They both just pretty much just sit back and wait for the MK to mess up. Diddy does this better though since he has an easier time forcing an approach

:phone:
 

GOofyGV

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Banning something is just gonna create cry babies from one side. Leaving something unbanned will create crybabies from the other side. What should be answered is what do people gain from keeping something unbanned/allowed.

In this case, MK/Double MK.

Banned:

- More people would go back to their old mains and use them more in tournaments.
- Result list would look more versatile.
- Game would be alot more fun competitive (If anyone even care for that and not just getting money at all cost)
- People not be so chicken to work with mid tiers and below harder cause there isnt an MK for people to run too anymore and improve meta game.

Allowed:

- Can't beat em, join them. You will see alot of MK dittos and players in general
- people will stop using mid tiers and below, leaving hidden potential to be lost or undiscovered to improve metagames
- Game gets boring and repetitive pissing off alot of people in the community. The fun factor for competitive play is just about gone.
- People quit the game.

So what be the goal of the BBR? To make the game as balanced as possible? More fun? Characters will still have a hard time with other match ups. For teams It be a lil better in my eyes. But meta banned in tourny would just give something new for people to cry about. Which is IC and Olimar. Pocket IC have started to form more then before. IC and olimar would be the next thing people would start crying about.

If MK was to get banned, it be for one reason in my eyes. Compared to the rest of the cast, his weakness are seriously hard to punish, even if he makes a mistake. He is just too safe most of the time. And edguarding him nearly becomes a joke for most.

Remember how long it took people to finally figure out snake and put him down already. At one point people wanted him banned and snake was all over the top 8. What does snake do now? Even the best snakes can't hold their own in big tournies much like before.

So in conclusion, is something really this hard? Or are people just seriously lazy. Everyone needs to sit and think for 10 mins "Have I seriously done everything that I could? Have I abused all that I know effectively? Maybe I should think about and sit with someone for a while and practice some options." This is why I felt for a long time that MK should not be banned for people being lazy.

This is where I feel Salem (and the japanese) outclass the rest. They play with their options to create new ones and give it a try to see what works and does not. Salem has played M2K before and took games off him. Just could not take the set. He also lives in meta knight country. So not only does he play or sorts of MK, he trys new things out and have no fear. You don't have time to worry about how stupid and broken he is. That's not gonna get you the win. You already know you are at a disadvantage. Use what you have and be creative with your options. Playing so basic with said character cause of fear or just hoping for cheap play to work is not gonna do it. We seen this stuff for years already. it's the same thing all the time. That's one reason it took so long for people to figure out snake. And this payed off for Salem at apex

And quote from M2K himself

"Salem has NEVER played this good"
This is really true.
It's really hard for an MK main to win vs Smart players that know what to do. Most top players know the mu vs MK better then the mk knows the mu vs them.
 

Espy Rose

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SFP, Salem directly said that M2K didn't know how to fight ZSS after the matches/tournament. Quoted directly from CT Zero.
:applejack:
 

Baskerville

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The only MKs people should ever worry about are the legit ones in all honesty.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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Unrelated, but Salem winning Apex was the best thing to happen to the community though. It really was a God given plan, because I have a feeling a lot of people would have quit if MK won, and Salem winning seemed to bring up the competitive spirit in a lot of players and even some veterans.
 

Z'zgashi

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Unrelated, but Salem winning Apex was the best thing to happen to the community though. It really was a God given plan, because I have a feeling a lot of people would have quit if MK won, and Salem winning seemed to bring up the competitive spirit in a lot of players and even some veterans.
Get your nasty religion **** out of this thread
 

Espy Rose

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All Salem winning APEX did was prove to me that our top players are lazy as hell. :applejack:
 

Yobolight

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IMO ZSS hasn't really shown good results other than Apex and if she were to move anywhere in the tier list she would probably move down.

The people that Salem beat simply didn't know the match-up against a mediocre character.

Anyone who thinks that ZSS should move up the tier list is either crazy or trolling.
 

Espy Rose

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He didnt just beat top US players, he beat top Japan and Europe players too.
Well, I didn't want to extend it to other countries just because it'd sound more ridiculous, but you're kinda giving me no choice, aren't you? :applejack:
 

Iota

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I remember Bubba showing that ZSS had solid results before Apex. Can't remember anything outside of Salem placing 17th at sktar though. :happysheep:
 

Steam

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MK isn't doing quite good enough anymore, his mains are getting lazy... we must make a ruleset change to un-nerf MK so he wins the correct proportion of the tournies. GET TO IT.
 
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