Official BBR Tier List v7

[Life]

I should not have laughed at that summary of my post.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh ok, at least you laughed. I was afraid I was going to piss you off with that summary.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bubba, just top talking about PS2, it's clear you and some people her ethink it is bad, and many other people here think it's good, debating circles will not help either cause, ideology won't change.

Ironically, that's exactly what you said earlier on that post, people and TO's have different beliefs, there is no universal way to change that.

 

[DMG]

Well actually you could post a bunch of vids showing why it's bad. A few people converted after seeing timeouts on Norfair/RC/etc.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubba, just top talking about PS2, it's clear you and some people her ethink it is bad, and many other people here think it's good, debating circles will not help either cause, ideology won't change.

Or, you know, I could keep posting about my side of the argument because that's all this thread is really about. I could easily say, "Kyokoro, stop posting anything about anything. It's clear that you and some people here think it's that way, and many other people here think it's the other way." All we ever do here most of the time is debate in circles with the results being absolutely the same. No one's ideology changes. Just look at my sig!

Ironically, that's exactly what you said earlier on that post, people and TO's have different beliefs, there is no universal way to change that.

That actually isn't what I said at all. I said that no one should be treated differently for having different beliefs, not that there's no way to change that.

 

[Life]

Oh ok, at least you laughed. I was afraid I was going to piss you off with that summary.

Oh, you did, but you also amused me. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

As for PS2, it's an average stage in most matchups, "physics changes" seems pretty arbitrary as a ban criteria (why ban things that are different? let's ban FD, it has no platforms), it's not more conducive to stalling than PS1... so yeah.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@DMG: Videos? Nobody plays on PS2 lol
Anyway, I don't really think Timeouts per se are that unacceptable.

 

[DMG]

I don't mean timeout as in, 2 people fight very carefully and at the last minute they finally decide to run. I'm talking about get the lead and haul ***. Norfair is ****in huge and is great for doing that lol.

 

[bubbaking]

As for PS2, it's an average stage in most matchups, "physics changes" seems pretty arbitrary as a ban criteria (why ban things that are different? let's ban FD, it has no platforms), it's not more conducive to stalling than PS1... so yeah.

Well, some people here said that PS1 is also banworthy, so.....

Anyway, I don't really think Timeouts per se are that unacceptable.

Time-outs aren't unacceptable when they happen as the regular result of a long, drawn-out match, but when they happen because a 'time-out char' took advantage of the timer from the get-go, it's kind of like rubbing salt in the wound. The 'short' timer already is a bit extraneous for some. Giving people a stage to let them abuse that is a bit much.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm gonna have so much fun replying to those posts tomorrow....
*hinthint*

 

[bubbaking]

That match is the perfect example of why an imposed timer is an unnecessary and uncalled-for buff to certain characters' metagames.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It is also the perfect example of why we need them, to avoid people making matches to last forever.

 

[bubbaking]

People aim for time-outs because there's a time-out to aim for.

As I already said before, the only reason we have timers now is to facilitate tourneys. They are not good competitively, and they also are not indicative of a good game. Timers are what force some chars to be at a disadvantage from the get-go.

 

[Flayl]

Timers are there so you don't punish the player that's winning by allowing to loser to run all match

 

[Delta-cod]

The only Top Tier char who matters and that most people should be worrying about is MK and I'm pretty sure that his spacing/zoning game is actually buffed by PS2. Also, I feel like PS2 would actually help aerial-based chars more than ground-based ones.

Iunno, I find MK floating in the air above me considerably less threatening than him on the ground/in the air with normal physics. Hell, I don't even care if he's a jump or two above me even with normal physics.

I can't really discuss the other transformations because I can't think of a way to imagine the match happening there. Mainly because there's zero tournament matches that happen there.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's a decent stage for MK because if he has the lead, he can time people out more easily. That's about it.

EDIT: And I suppose he has an easier time adapting to jank, but that can be mitigated by learning the stage with whatever character you use.

 

[Delta-cod]

That applies to like, every stage ever.

Camps SV/BF platforms better than everyone too!

 

[bubbaking]

Not exactly the same. As I pointed out earlier, MK can easily exert control over all of the electric phase and he's one of the few chars I can see wresting control of the center from someone else. You can't exactly "mitigate" this by "learning the stage". If a stage gives a char a certain tangible advantage, you can't eliminate it. You have to fight through/around it. The treadmills do a really good job of combating that, though. That's my take on it.

Edit: And once the treadmills + MK actually push you to the ledge, MK can get to work applying ledge/offstage pressure. PS2 is one stage where I'd never want to fight an MK with extensive knowledge of the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The treadmills aren't hard to deal with at all... They're just different. Try walking on them instead of dashing.

 

[bubbaking]

It's not the treadmills I worry about (mostly). It's treadmills + MK. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but don't most ground-based chars need to dash against MK?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The fact that the treadmills push you back constantly changes the spacing dynamic. Perhaps on a normal stage they need to dash (several don't really, snake being a prime example)

I've never had trouble with MK specifically on the stage, we have it legal here and it was a starter for a long time.

 

[bubbaking]

You're a Jiggs main. <___<

 

[Shaya]

What part of walking through the treadmill at barely any slower than your regular walk speed don't you get?

You know, while having all those options like shielding
and if you're good at the stage, prepared actions from edge cancelling (for example, MK dash grabbing you on the treadmill and having it cancelled will let you grab the ledge first if you hold down briefly; you have frame advantage as well, so characters with fast nairs/uairs punish MK for it).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're a Jiggs main. <___<

I'm also (probably) the best Bowser and ROB (Shaya will despute this) in my country, with second best Samus and G&W under my belt. I don't just use Puff haha

 

[Shaya]

I don't dispute ROB or Bowser because neither of those characters are in the game.

Actually, unfortunately, zxv uses both of those characters from time to time. So who knows.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, ok. That's fine then.

I think I'm one of the only people whose used them all in tournament... (with success)

 

[Shaya]

2008/9 ROB success exists in Australia.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah I meant ALL those trash characters combined

wasn't arguing anything, just thought it was funny

 

[bubbaking]

(for example, MK dash grabbing you on the treadmill and having it cancelled will let you grab the ledge first if you hold down briefly; you have frame advantage as well, so characters with fast nairs/uairs punish MK for it).

Are you assuming that MK is going to dthrow you, giving you a chance to actually get to the ledge? Along these same lines, MK can just f/bthrow you, grab the ledge from the cancelled animation, and get better follow-ups off of these grabs (maybe even true combos?). If neither of these worked, or I was a MK that simply didn't want to take any chances, I'd just uthrow.

 

[Shaya]

Generally MK will have his grab cancelled before he can throw if he dash grabs.

 

[Luco]

I'm fairly certain that I remember that the URC stated that their ruleset was "recommended", not mandatory. How the heck do you enforce a ruleset (more than not stickying threads)? Besides, if this ruleset was "mandatory", that just means that the URC was 'oppressing' the power of the TOs even further. I don't know if this is what you're trying to say or not, but that's the truth of it. The URC was pushing their beliefs onto others.

Hmm? Oh, it WAS recommended... it's just, if you didn't go by their rule-set, your tournament wasn't 'valid'. Or something like that.

How do you figure this? Some characters like it in the air and the flying phase lets them camp for days, especially if they're facing ground-based chars. Even DDD, who's usually heavily ground-based can make very good use of the flying phase utilizing his multiple jumps in order to camp if he has a sizable lead. There's no reason not to. I believe all of DDD's CGs are messed up on this phase.



Since Frigate and PS1 are arguably banworthy, comparing PS2 to them doesn't really help PS2's case. There are a whole crapload of chars who can take advantage very well of the control they have of the center of the stage, especially when you have those plats as vantage points. The Links and the PK Kids come to mind but there are definitely more, and then you have chars like MK who can easily just aerial/tornado/MK ALL ACROSS the stage and still maintain control of the center. Even if you have a good aerial approach, trying to usurp control of the center from the opponent is ridiculously difficult because it is a nearly unbroken rule in Smash that being above the opponent puts one at a disadvantage, and those platforms make it even more difficult. The only char I can think of who would have relatively little trouble taking control of the center is MK.



We are buffing the time-out strategy now.



Increase the punishment for a random event. Suuuuure.....



The only Top Tier char who matters and that most people should be worrying about is MK and I'm pretty sure that his spacing/zoning game is actually buffed by PS2. Also, I feel like PS2 would actually help aerial-based chars more than ground-based ones.



I see what you're saying, but this is only one very small part of the stage's rotation. It doesn't play as big of a part in the overall outcome of the match as the rising lava of Brinstar does. I'm having trouble remembering, but I really don't think the cars last much longer than the risen lava on Brinstar, if they even last longer at all. Don't forget that the cars don't immediately start hurting you when they appear.

DDD can't really 'camp' in the air. Most characters can't. He can stay in the air but anyone with a ranged attack or decent jumps or something like that can get him. Even those who can't.... well he has to come down at some point.

MK can tornado a bunch of characters across the stage anyway! But on a more serious note there, it's possible to camp there but it's also possible to camp on places like PS1, which is a valid argument because until they are actually banned, they can be argued with. :/

As for rock, well yeah... but it's only like 40 seconds long. It's like how castle siege has walk-offs but only for a small while so it's considered ok.

With ice, tbh i've never really noticed the tripping but yeah, it means you're more likely to trip but on that ice? Unless you mess up bad even that's gonna be kinda hard to punish. :/

Again it's like, I can see the argument against it but... we have PS1 legal and most people don't seem to have qualms so....

Also, haven't played them in ages (except for dre who I played online recently), but wouldn't dre and leisha have a shot at those positions, grim?

We have such a small scene in Aus. I wouldn't be surprised if mid-level players were the top of their char over here. Ryukario probably has the best Lucario and I might have the best Ness, even as a secondary. Lucas... I haven't faced Jamwa yet so I have absolutely no idea. :o

No, wait, I also need to verse ikill again...

 

[bubbaking]

DDD can't really 'camp' in the air. Most characters can't. He can stay in the air but anyone with a ranged attack or decent jumps or something like that can get him. Even those who can't.... well he has to come down at some point.

We're talking about during the air phase of PS2, and during the air phase, he most certainly can. Good luck getting past that dair and bair. Don't forget that at any point, he can just shove past you with FF variants of any of these.

MK can tornado a bunch of characters across the stage anyway! But on a more serious note there, it's possible to camp there but it's also possible to camp on places like PS1, which is a valid argument because until they are actually banned, they can be argued with. :/

Yeah, but on the treadmills, it's impossible to do anything about it, which makes all the difference. At least on PS1, every 'bad' phase either provides a wall between MK and me or gives me a chance to space and punish the tornado.

As for rock, well yeah... but it's only like 40 seconds long. It's like how castle siege has walk-offs but only for a small while so it's considered ok.

Running the clock..... CS doesn't have walls, and the statues can be taken down, allowing interaction to be forced. CS also doesn't change randomly. Every transformation can be looked forward to and prepared for at a certain time.

With ice, tbh i've never really noticed the tripping but yeah, it means you're more likely to trip but on that ice? Unless you mess up bad even that's gonna be kinda hard to punish. :/

You know, being 'punished' doesn't only have to constitute getting hit. If you try to punish the opponent and trip while executing your fsmash, JC usmash, sideB, etc., that's 'punishment' enough.

Again it's like, I can see the argument against it but... we have PS1 legal and most people don't seem to have qualms so....

IMO, PS2 is worse than PS1, but I could see both being banworthy.

 

[Luco]

We're talking about during the air phase of PS2, and during the air phase, he most certainly can. Good luck getting past that dair and bair. Don't forget that at any point, he can just shove past you with FF variants of any of these.



Yeah, but on the treadmills, it's impossible to do anything about it, which makes all the difference. At least on PS1, every 'bad' phase either provides a wall between MK and me or gives me a chance to space and punish the tornado.



Running the clock..... CS doesn't have walls, and the statues can be taken down, allowing interaction to be forced. CS also doesn't change randomly. Every transformation can be looked forward to and prepared for at a certain time.



You know, being 'punished' doesn't only have to constitute getting hit. If you try to punish the opponent and trip while executing your fsmash, JC usmash, sideB, etc., that's 'punishment' enough.



IMO, PS2 is worse than PS1, but I could see both being banworthy.

So for DDD in the air, all you do then is use projectiles. He's probably gonna get hit sooner or later and I dunno about DDD personally but I thought like no characters could fall fast enough for FF to be of much use except getting to the ground slightly faster. :/

Uhh, i'll respond to the rest later, this computer has to be used by someone else atm. =/ Bbl man. :o

 

[-LzR-]

Bubba PS2 gives you like 7 seconds to prepare for the transformation. How much are you gonna need to be able to tell that Ice is next?
Oh and though Ice has a bigger triprate than normal, tripping is also so much harder to punish as you'll slide really far when doing that. Ice stage makes the groundgame a little bit more interesting for a moment.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And it's not hard to mostly avoid running/pivoting on the ice part, 40 seconds isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[-LzR-]

Oh and for the hardcore extremists out there... You can walk...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Or ps2 can just stay banned, as it is likely to.

 

[Espy Rose]

Players like you are the worst. No sense of creativity for new, non-broken stage mechanics, and no enthusiasm for new content.
You might as well just set up Smash 4's ruleset now because we all know that this terrible attitude is going to whittle the list down to Final Destination and Battlefield anyways.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ban MK and you can have PS2, Brinstar, RC, Port Town, Pictochat, and Mushroomy Kingdom or whatever you want.

I'm serious.

MK is broken. Even though ZSS won Apex, there were like 30 MKs in the top 50, and that's after we cut off his arms and legs in a custom rule set built specifically to neuter him. I don't want to play a game where MK is legal on top of giving him 100 janky-*** counterpicks.

I consider myself pretty "liberal" when it comes to stage selection, but MK limits our options in this regard, as he does with everything.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Ban MK and you can have PS2, Brinstar, RC, Port Town, Pictochat, and Mushroomy Kingdom or whatever you want.

I'm serious.

MK is broken. Even though ZSS won Apex, there were like 30 MKs in the top 50, and that's after we cut off his arms and legs in a custom rule set built specifically to neuter him. I don't want to play a game where MK is legal on top of giving him 100 janky-*** counterpicks.

I consider myself pretty "liberal" when it comes to stage selection, but MK limits our options in this regard, as he does with everything.

Makes me wonder how many more stages will potentially be banned until smash 4 comes out