Official BBR Tier List v7

[Blacknight99923]

Ps2 in my opinion should be banned because.....

Conveyor belts give stupid amount of stage control and positioning to whoever is in the middle by a completely non player decided event. It is nearly impossible to assail someone who is in the middle. Unlike Ps1 characters are typically forced to the ledge as a result and characters who have the middle can still apply substantial pressure with moves, that their opponent can rarely retaliate with.
For example projectiles, metaknights tornado, will either force their opponent to the ledge (if they shield) or into the air.

During the rock phase characters, such as falco, can put themselves inside the rock, and attack their opponents while inside of it. This in addition to the fact its created a wall and stagnant play warrants scrutiny and debate over whether the stage should be legal.

My main objective argument against the ice stage is that, to my knowledge, it increases tripping. While tripping is a mechanic that applies to every stage I see little reason to increase any randomness within a match in a competitive setting. Matches should not be won or lost off of luck, it is not competitive.

The air segment has a physics change. If we're going to allow physics changes i think we should allow metal brawl, small brawl, bunny hood brawl, fast brawl, or slow brawl, since after all none of those create any random changes and can add to the "depth" of the game.





Ps2 is not fit for competitive play.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If we're going to allow physics changes i think we should allow metal brawl, small brawl, bunny hood brawl, fast brawl, or slow brawl, since after all none of those create any random changes and can add to the "depth" of the game.

That sounds really fun though!

 

[Delta-cod]

Ps2 in my opinion should be banned because.....

Conveyor belts give stupid amount of stage control and positioning to whoever is in the middle by a completely non player decided event. It is nearly impossible to assail someone who is in the middle. Unlike Ps1 characters are typically forced to the ledge as a result and characters who have the middle can still apply substantial pressure with moves, that their opponent can rarely retaliate with.
For example projectiles, metaknights tornado, will either force their opponent to the ledge (if they shield) or into the air.

During the rock phase characters, such as falco, can put themselves inside the rock, and attack their opponents while inside of it. This in addition to the fact its created a wall and stagnant play warrants scrutiny and debate over whether the stage should be legal.

My main objective argument against the ice stage is that, to my knowledge, it increases tripping. While tripping is a mechanic that applies to every stage I see little reason to increase any randomness within a match in a competitive setting. Matches should not be won or lost off of luck, it is not competitive.

The air segment has a physics change. If we're going to allow physics changes i think we should allow metal brawl, small brawl, bunny hood brawl, fast brawl, or slow brawl, since after all none of those create any random changes and can add to the "depth" of the game.





Ps2 is not fit for competitive play.

So, are you against PS1 as well?

Also, lol @ the argument against the air segment.

 

[Life]

No, but it means that my opinion is the popular one. Therefore, I win.

Don't you think universally banning MK would have been the "right" decision for the course of this game's metagame? More chars would become viable, more people would be allowed to have a shot at winning something, etc. Even if it did nothing to defend our game's 'integrity', it would promote balance and fairness and would allow us to remove some of the really stupid rules we have that further promote imbalance. Instead, MK's ban was lifted and most people agreed with the lift (if you go by his legality in most tournaments). Why? Because it was the popular choice.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say something I've been brooding over for a while, that I think some other people are thinking, but nobody is willing to say:

The only reason the MK ban failed was because he's legal at Apex. As long as there isn't another tournament series that rivals Apex, MK will never be banned in the mainstream again.

In other words, MK is legal, not because most people are anti-ban, but because one specific person is anti-ban.

There, I said it.

There was a time I never thought I'd say this, but I miss the URC, badly.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lmao suck it man children. Looks like your party game won't be at EVO.

click on the original link to see why you should donate $5 dollars or more to melee at evo2013 and **** up the sg community

 

[Blacknight99923]

So, are you against PS1 as well?

Also, lol @ the argument against the air segment.

I'm really iffy on Ps1.

Ps1 doesn't allow characters to disappear into parts of the stage (to my knowledge).

Ps1 during camping segments doesn't force you to the ledge.

In many situations during the wall segments characters are on the same side so fighting may resume, this doesn't mean that people won't just jump over to reset the situation however, so if players want the game will stagnate no matter what.

PS1 doesn't increase the rate of tripping, or create physics changes.

My real problem with Ps1 or the vast majority of these questionable stages comes from things that are almost impossible to argue or debate on a forum.

For example in the metaknight falco match up during the rock transformation is mk gets falco off stage, he's much much easier to edgeguard because his side b won't go all the way on stage. However in 20-30 seconds or however long it takes for the stage to transform again I wouldn't have such a stupid advantage, and its basically luck that at the time of the transformation I'll get all these additional advantages.

For instance when I play dehf i'll frequently get a lot of percent or damage on him as a result, if he side b's high (but not to the point of hitting the top ledge) I can cover almost all of his options stupidly easily. I can reverse shuttle loop and if I hit he's probably dead and if I miss its a glide attack if he side b'd.

If he went for the lower ledge he's still in a horrible position because of the wall falco can't really get on stage. what can he do? side b back on lmao? easy punish every time. Get up attack? We all know how amazing that option is. Ledge hop reflector? (watch dehfs vids/play him if you doubt this is a real mix up) won't do anything if I don't trip and i'll get a free punish even if he hits, and he won't have his jump either.

And I still have the stupid nado/nair options too I normally do, and the punishment for messing up is considerably less because if I just go back to the bottom ledge falco is forced to jump away over the wall because the stage layout will just allow me to hit him with a planking up air. Normally he could just space himself correctly to deal with a metaknight on the ledge and still pressure my get up but because of the stage wall he's forced to run away.

Yet if it was any other transformation I wouldn't have these options. Its basically luck that the time I dsmashed falco off stage a transformation appears that allows me to **** him over.

There's more to the situation than I went into, and if DEHF / larry / namesearch baiting would like to confirm or deny what I've said that would be great (this is Soren if you forgot)

 

[bubbaking]

Hanenbow should be legal more often imho

Mushroomy Kingdom should be legal. It prevents time outs like 90% of the time :3

I like some of the thoughts being brought up in this thread.

PS2 is "if you learn how to play on this stage, it's almost an entirely new game which has all these amazing things you can do".

Like
> omg I can't get to the centre of the stage
(Try walking, you'll actually move right through those easy peasy while walking, but running/dashing has major resistance)

> omg wind
pretty much the only argument that I'll ever consider for why the stage should be banned. Fox says hi.

> everything else
camping? seriously? You're going to give me a stage which gives me 50,000 new options due to all the various mechanics that are added into it and you're going to camp me? Good ****ing luck.

I'm out.

Spoiler

Camping >>>>> any other option in this game

Hate to bring up MK as usual, but all the nonsense reasons bubba uses are just as valid/invalid for banning MK/Olimar/ICs. Redundant, silly, boring nonsense that would wreck john numbers in friendlies?

None of these characters are clones so none of them are "redundant". Argument invalidated.

No I didn't think that Armada's one set against HBox's Puff when he had no MU experience was proof that the MU is good. It just so happened to stand the test of time. Here are some counter examples: M2K vs. OCEAN, Taj vs. Lucky, Ice vs. Hack, Sonic at MLG, etc...

Actually, I firmly believe that the 'optimal' way to test a MU is to have two players who've never faced each other but know the other player's char's tools and strong and weak points, as well as their own, play against each other. This would prevent 'player familiarity' from becoming an issue, because 'player CPs' instead of char CPs are very real at high/top level.

Also, as I said, "It doesn't take multiple instances sometimes to realize how something can work." These kinds of situations simply ask one to apply some intuition and analysis. Through analysis of the characters' options and the players' choices throughout the set, it can be seen whether a certain outcome of a match was caused by a lack of MU knowledge/player familiarity or by legitimate advantages/disadvantages.. In the case of M2K vs OCEAN, it's probably the former. In the case of Hbox vs Armada, it's easily the latter. Most people could see why YL might actually beat Jiggs before their first set even ended.

Edit: You tried to do this yourself by asserting that none of the MKs Salem went against had ZSS experience, suggesting that ZSS' MU against MK isn't as good as many of us think and that ZSS' tourney viability isn't as good as many of us are saying.

The main thing I thought was funny is that you think Puff is good against MK on Brinstar.

I.....never said that Puff is good against MK on Brinstar or anywhere for that matter. MK probably beats her everywhere. :-|

I was largely referring to SfP and Bubbaking, Grim.

"It's redundant" "It's annoying" "This stage has bad things" etc posts

I thought it was quite clear from post #1 that the moment I said "This stage is jank", it was obviously my expressed opinion.....my very strong opinion. Every reply to that has been a further debate of opinions and if anyone hasn't been treating it as such, then shame on him. I was being quite objective, however, when I said that adding rules to the 'naked game' removes from the game's legitimacy in a competitive environment.

Isn't PTAD's last stop before the finish line quite problematic? It only has one safe platform to stand on if the cars happen to come and I doubt that not too many characters can dodge the cars just by jumping over them, and even if they could, it puts them into an incredibly bad position. Realistically both won't be on the platform so one player is always at risk.

So? What about when the lava/acid rises high enough on Brinstar to cover every platform except for the top one? A lot of people here have already expressed that they would be perfectly fine with Brinstar being legal if not for MK (and some choice other chars), so clearly, being restricted to only one platform for a small period of time isn't a problem. At least the cars give warning before they start hurting you (I'm pretty sure the first couple of cars don't actually damage anyone) as opposed to the lava keeping you guessing when it sporadically switches between rising partway and rising ALL the way. That and the cars can only threaten you like that for only one section of a long stage rotation. Brinstar is constantly threatening to flood the whole stage under its nonsense.

INess was the only mid tier at Apex who got top 32 (or top 25 for that matter)

There's no such thing as top 25 (unless there are only 25 entrants, lolz). There's top 24 and then there's top 32. Along similar lines, there technically can never be a 'top 10' (even though people sometimes like to refer to all the 9th placers as top 10). In reality, 9th place is part of the top 12, which really isn't much worse than top 10 at all. If Shaky got 25th, which I believe he did, then he's part of the top 32 placers.

Top sections go like this:

• 1st
• 2nd
• 3rd
• 4th
• Top 6
• Top 8
• Top 12
• Top 16
• Top 24
• Top 32
• Top 48
• Top 64

There are two easy ways to figure out these 'top groups':

1. After the top 4, add 'n' placements to the group to acquire the next 'top group' (starting with n = 2). After two uses of n, multiply 'n' by two and make this number the new 'n'.
2. Much easier, just look at the next placement after the group you're looking at. By definition, this placement is 1 greater than the number of people who placed higher than that placing. So for example, all the 25th placers are right outside of the top 24.

That's way too big reward for just being able to stand on a platform for 3 seconds.

I don't think the cars actually last for 3 seconds..... <__< Also, don't talk to me about "big rewards" when the ICs basically scream, "FD gives us way too "big a reward" for there being no platforms at all."

 

[infiniteV115]

Pikachu can go through every stage. Ban every stage please.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ban every Pikachu please.

 

[SoulPech]

Let's ban everything. from now on when we go to tournaments, we'll be staring @ blank screens.

Boy I can't wait for Grand finals :3

 

[bubbaking]

Ban ICs. Players can accidentally get Fusion Glitches and then win matches. Don't ban the action. Ban the character. DO IT NAOW!

Edit: And while you're at it, ban Ganon because he makes some characters too viable. Nobody needs a 100-0 MU to give them free wins in bracket. Ban anything that's not MK. Then ban M2K so we don't have to worry about M2K MK stalling. Then ban the 2 in M2K so that M2K = MK and Mew2King has nothing to do with Mewtwo. Then ban Mewno2King for stealing someone else's name because I'm sure there's already a MewKing around here somewhere. Problem solved. No M2K. Only Nairo, because he's the American MK we need, and not the one we deserve.

#AmericaRises

Wow, I put way too much time into a troll post.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm really iffy on Ps1.

Ps1 doesn't allow characters to disappear into parts of the stage (to my knowledge).

Well, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7m1TA5eJ1c can happen.

I'm also not too sure on other characters' methods for getting into the rock, but I know that at least for Yoshi, it requires some precise Down-B aiming and thus can be pretty telegraphed.

Also, I dunno if lasers go through the rock, but I believe you can also be hit while inside the rock, and that you can't really move around to attack if you wanna stay in there, so options are pretty limited.

Ps1 during camping segments doesn't force you to the ledge.

Uh, depends on how strictly you define ledge.

Grass segment is fine.

Fire segment typically devolves into someone being under the tree and someone being by the house. Person under the tree is at the ledge (or at least, near the edge of the stage), while the person at the house has practically the entire stage to control. When the transformation goes away, you still have to wait for the tree to sink fully into the ground so you don't have to approach from above (by jumping over the tree), so you also have to sit around near the ledge while on the ground or try to approach from high in the air (terrible positioning).

Water segment has a similar problem, with the left side of the windmill being the same essentially as the left side of the tree.

Rock is the worst, because if you end up at the cliff, you can't approach the right side of the stage because you'd be approaching from high above, which sucks. If you wait for the transformation to end you're all the way at the edge, waiting for the rock to sink so you can approach while the opponent has already closed plenty of ground, and you either have to approach from above or deal with sitting literally on the edge when the transformation settles.

So, I guess PS1 doesn't necessarily cause you to be grabbing the ledge, but it sure does force you into really ****ty positions.

In many situations during the wall segments characters are on the same side so fighting may resume, this doesn't mean that people won't just jump over to reset the situation however, so if players want the game will stagnate no matter what.

They'll be on the same side fighting until someone gets knocked into the air or away, in which case the common answer is to reset by stalling on the other side of the wall. Not much fighting usually occurs during these transformations.

PS1 doesn't increase the rate of tripping, or create physics changes.

The tripping rate increase is a problem.

But why are the changes in physics so inherently bad, especially when they're temporary?

My real problem with Ps1 or the vast majority of these questionable stages comes from things that are almost impossible to argue or debate on a forum.

*Example with DEHF here*

These are things that I actually like to take into account, although they can't be used AS absolutely.

I'd argue that this is just something that can make this stage a good CP for MK in the Falco MU, though, as it can't reaaaaaaaaally be controlled and probably isn't too common.

 

[SoulPech]

Wow, I put way too much time into a troll post.

Isn't everything you post a troll post? If not, seems that way xD

 

[bubbaking]

Ps2 in my opinion should be banned because.....

Conveyor belts give stupid amount of stage control and positioning to whoever is in the middle by a completely non player decided event. It is nearly impossible to assail someone who is in the middle. Unlike Ps1 characters are typically forced to the ledge as a result and characters who have the middle can still apply substantial pressure with moves, that their opponent can rarely retaliate with.
For example projectiles, metaknights tornado, will either force their opponent to the ledge (if they shield) or into the air.

During the rock phase characters, such as falco, can put themselves inside the rock, and attack their opponents while inside of it. This in addition to the fact its created a wall and stagnant play warrants scrutiny and debate over whether the stage should be legal.

My main objective argument against the ice stage is that, to my knowledge, it increases tripping. While tripping is a mechanic that applies to every stage I see little reason to increase any randomness within a match in a competitive setting. Matches should not be won or lost off of luck, it is not competitive.

The air segment has a physics change. If we're going to allow physics changes i think we should allow metal brawl, small brawl, bunny hood brawl, fast brawl, or slow brawl, since after all none of those create any random changes and can add to the "depth" of the game.





Ps2 is not fit for competitive play.

I'm really iffy on Ps1.

Ps1 doesn't allow characters to disappear into parts of the stage (to my knowledge).

Ps1 during camping segments doesn't force you to the ledge.

In many situations during the wall segments characters are on the same side so fighting may resume, this doesn't mean that people won't just jump over to reset the situation however, so if players want the game will stagnate no matter what.

PS1 doesn't increase the rate of tripping, or create physics changes.

My real problem with Ps1 or the vast majority of these questionable stages comes from things that are almost impossible to argue or debate on a forum.

For example in the metaknight falco match up during the rock transformation is mk gets falco off stage, he's much much easier to edgeguard because his side b won't go all the way on stage. However in 20-30 seconds or however long it takes for the stage to transform again I wouldn't have such a stupid advantage, and its basically luck that at the time of the transformation I'll get all these additional advantages.

For instance when I play dehf i'll frequently get a lot of percent or damage on him as a result, if he side b's high (but not to the point of hitting the top ledge) I can cover almost all of his options stupidly easily. I can reverse shuttle loop and if I hit he's probably dead and if I miss its a glide attack if he side b'd.

If he went for the lower ledge he's still in a horrible position because of the wall falco can't really get on stage. what can he do? side b back on lmao? easy punish every time. Get up attack? We all know how amazing that option is. Ledge hop reflector? (watch dehfs vids/play him if you doubt this is a real mix up) won't do anything if I don't trip and i'll get a free punish even if he hits, and he won't have his jump either.

And I still have the stupid nado/nair options too I normally do, and the punishment for messing up is considerably less because if I just go back to the bottom ledge falco is forced to jump away over the wall because the stage layout will just allow me to hit him with a planking up air. Normally he could just space himself correctly to deal with a metaknight on the ledge and still pressure my get up but because of the stage wall he's forced to run away.

Yet if it was any other transformation I wouldn't have these options. Its basically luck that the time I dsmashed falco off stage a transformation appears that allows me to **** him over.

There's more to the situation than I went into, and if DEHF / larry / namesearch baiting would like to confirm or deny what I've said that would be great (this is Soren if you forgot)

This man speaks so much truth............imo.

So, are you against PS1 as well?

Well, he said that PS2 allows specific chars to 'hide' in the mountain during the ground phase and attack someone from within. Can a similar action be performed on PS1? If so, then PS1 is also banworthy, I guess.

 

[DEHF]

There's more to the situation than I went into, and if DEHF / larry / namesearch baiting would like to confirm or deny what I've said that would be great (this is Soren if you forgot)

The name search engine isn't working.

I don't name search myself, that's so egotistical.

 

[bubbaking]

There was a time I never thought I'd say this, but I miss the URC, badly.

I can see what you're saying, but my main problem with the URC was their 'oppression' of the final say of the TO. If your ruleset didn't coincide with their recommended ruleset, then your tourneys weren't stickied while others were. That's a little extreme and unfair, dude. We don't need some committee saying which tourneys are easy to find and which aren't in a 'spank your finger with a spoon' manner. TOs just need to step it up and host Apex-level events or something.

They'll be on the same side fighting until someone gets knocked into the air or away, in which case the common answer is to reset by stalling on the other side of the wall. Not much fighting usually occurs during these transformations.

This isn't necessarily true. If a wall pops up and I'm at risk of being infinited, I might just stop the fight and flee, regardless of whether I got knocked away/into the air or not.

Isn't everything you post a troll post? If not, seems that way xD

Really? I was always under the impression that I was one of the more 'over-serious' people who posted here. Don't let my use of emoticons fool you!

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry, double post....

 

[Delta-cod]

This isn't necessarily true. If a wall pops up and I'm at risk of being infinited, I might just stop the fight and flee, regardless of whether I got knocked away/into the air or not.

I agree. I didn't feel like that was worth stating though, and instead opted to discuss the case where people actually do try to fight. In that case, the fighting doesn't really last too long, either.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I can see what you're saying, but my main problem with the URC was their 'oppression' of the final say of the TO. If your ruleset didn't coincide with their recommended ruleset, then your tourneys weren't stickied while others were. That's a little extreme and unfair, dude. We don't need some committee saying which tourneys are easy to find and which aren't in a 'spank your finger with a spoon' manner. TOs just need to step it up and host Apex-level events or something.

The United Ruleset wasn't recommended. It was mandatory.

This isn't necessarily true. If a wall pops up and I'm at risk of being infinited, I might just stop the fight and flee, regardless of whether I got knocked away/into the air or not.

And that's why Delfino and PS1 matches take so long.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Well, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7m1TA5eJ1c can happen.

I'm also not too sure on other characters' methods for getting into the rock, but I know that at least for Yoshi, it requires some precise Down-B aiming and thus can be pretty telegraphed.

Also, I dunno if lasers go through the rock, but I believe you can also be hit while inside the rock, and that you can't really move around to attack if you wanna stay in there, so options are pretty limited.

its easy to set up in falcos case because he just side b cancels. He can shoot lasers outside of the rock to my knowledge (however its been a while)

Uh, depends on how strictly you define ledge.

I literally mean on the ledge, which in my experience Ps2 puts players on directly.

Grass segment is fine.

I agree

Fire segment typically devolves into someone being under the tree and someone being by the house. Person under the tree is at the ledge (or at least, near the edge of the stage), while the person at the house has practically the entire stage to control. When the transformation goes away, you still have to wait for the tree to sink fully into the ground so you don't have to approach from above (by jumping over the tree), so you also have to sit around near the ledge while on the ground or try to approach from high in the air (terrible positioning).

I agree with this as well. Its pretty dumb.

Water segment has a similar problem, with the left side of the windmill being the same essentially as the left side of the tree.

Rock is the worst, because if you end up at the cliff, you can't approach the right side of the stage because you'd be approaching from high above, which sucks. If you wait for the transformation to end you're all the way at the edge, waiting for the rock to sink so you can approach while the opponent has already closed plenty of ground, and you either have to approach from above or deal with sitting literally on the edge when the transformation settles.

So, I guess PS1 doesn't necessarily cause you to be grabbing the ledge, but it sure does force you into really ****ty positions.


They'll be on the same side fighting until someone gets knocked into the air or away, in which case the common answer is to reset by stalling on the other side of the wall. Not much fighting usually occurs during these transformations.

This is true, I'm with you with everything you said about PS1. We're on the same page.

The tripping rate increase is a problem.

But why are the changes in physics so inherently bad, especially when they're temporary?

By changing the physics you're no longer playing the same game. Characters like wario, marth, metaknight, falco, diddy (there are more, but I'm just going off top tiers) all use jumps or aerials in the neutral situation. These options are now changed in implementation drastically, you've changed the entire outlook of zoning, how hitboxes interact ect.

And don't even get me started on how it changes juggling, vertical killing, recoveries, ect.

While its true this effect is only temporary, you are not playing the same game. You may be of the opinion that for a "brief" 20-30 seconds or however long it is, that it is acceptable to play in such an environment and I can respect the opinion that in a competitive setting a player should be tested on all aspects of a game, including stage knowledge. I however believe that in a case like this the changes are to extreme, because the game is fundamentally played differently, and that the reasons we don't play the game on fast brawl, invisible brawl, ect are the same as why I don't believe we should play on the wind transformation.

These are things that I actually like to take into account, although they can't be used AS absolutely.

I'd argue that this is just something that can make this stage a good CP for MK in the Falco MU, though, as it can't reaaaaaaaaally be controlled and probably isn't too common.

I would expect a player of your reputation to take factors like these into account, but I think you'll agree with me when I say not all posters here do. I also agree that they are very difficult to use as absolutes. I think it is fair to say that we both agree on their presence in a match, and that they can be very significant.


I personally believe its more competitive to play in an environment that rewards happenstance as rarely as possible.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ICs, ZSS, Lucario, DDD, Olimar, Peach, Sonic, DK, Sheilda and Sheik, Lucas and Ness, Yoshi, Luigi, bottom 4....

We've discussed a lot, actually. With new info, though, it may be possible to re-discuss this old stuff: Ness was the only mid tier at Apex who got top 32 (or top 25 for that matter), for instance and Ike/DK with their respective character heroes are placing really well again recently of late.

I may revamp that silly prototype tier list that I did a little while back. :o

did you forget earth? who uses pit who is mid tier

 

[Life]

I can see what you're saying, but my main problem with the URC was their 'oppression' of the final say of the TO. If your ruleset didn't coincide with their recommended ruleset, then your tourneys weren't stickied while others were. That's a little extreme and unfair, dude. We don't need some committee saying which tourneys are easy to find and which aren't in a 'spank your finger with a spoon' manner. TOs just need to step it up and host Apex-level events or something.

And then a major tournament (oh look, Apex again) got stickied anyway--in fact, that's ultimately why they got disbanded. The sticky thing is kinda like tripping: bad idea? Sure (much more debatably, but I'll stuff that to make a point), but it barely would affect anything. It's not like there's ever much more than like half a dozen stickies (like one or two for a given region), most of which are for tournaments you've probably heard of already (ie nationals or very large regionals) that don't really need the publicity and have relatively active threads.

The orignal beef I had with the URC, back when it was proposed, was twofold: it had BBR in the original name despite being unconnected to that group, and it only had five people (which means that any three of them could basically decide the whole community's rules). They eventually went and fixed both of those problems, and then died. Now we have one TO who decides things, and everyone else (at least in the mainstream--i.e. areas with players who like to think they have a remote shot at placing well) goes along with it because hey, our players have to be prepared for Apex.

I'm not saying Apex itself is a bad thing, but we'd be in a much better place if it had used the Unity ruleset.

One last thing: most people don't care about rulesets (though they should). People went along with Unity when URC had the power, they go along with Apex now that AS has the power, heck, if any TO were actually willing to give it a try they'd have probably gone along with BBR3 eventually (especially if it were a tournament-starved area like mine). Well, okay, maybe not quite that extreme... not that I mind dreaming....

Anyway, the point is that if you asked the general public "Apex or Unity Ruleset", most people would say "either one". Basically you'd only get a strong one-or-the-other response from a few groups: people with strong opinions on the MK ban, people with strong opinions about stages, people that haven't played both, or ex-URC members. I think you'd have a bit of bias towards Apex, but only because people have gotten used to it and don't feel like changing.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

And then a major tournament (oh look, Apex again) got stickied anyway--in fact, that's ultimately why they got disbanded. The sticky thing is kinda like tripping: bad idea? Sure (much more debatably, but I'll stuff that to make a point), but it barely would affect anything. It's not like there's ever much more than like half a dozen stickies (like one or two for a given region), most of which are for tournaments you've probably heard of already (ie nationals or very large regionals) that don't really need the publicity and have relatively active threads.

The orignal beef I had with the URC, back when it was proposed, was twofold: it had BBR in the original name despite being unconnected to that group, and it only had five people (which means that any three of them could basically decide the whole community's rules). They eventually went and fixed both of those problems, and then died. Now we have one TO who decides things, and everyone else (at least in the mainstream--i.e. areas with players who like to think they have a remote shot at placing well) goes along with it because hey, our players have to be prepared for Apex.

I'm not saying Apex itself is a bad thing, but we'd be in a much better place if it had used the Unity ruleset.

One last thing: most people don't care about rulesets (though they should). People went along with Unity when URC had the power, they go along with Apex now that AS has the power, heck, if any TO were actually willing to give it a try they'd have probably gone along with BBR3 eventually (especially if it were a tournament-starved area like mine). Well, okay, maybe not quite that extreme... not that I mind dreaming....

Anyway, the point is that if you asked the general public "Apex or Unity Ruleset", most people would say "either one". Basically you'd only get a strong one-or-the-other response from a few groups: people with strong opinions on the MK ban, people with strong opinions about stages, people that haven't played both, or ex-URC members. I think you'd have a bit of bias towards Apex, but only because people have gotten used to it and don't feel like changing.

Very well written, I agree.

 

[Tesh]

you know characters can also get inside halberd...

 

[Life]

The thing about getting inside the PS2 rock is that most characters can get a hitbox in there AFAIK.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So they literally break through it


APEX has always been a headache for Ruleset Debaters overall, everything about it makes no sense but works because people agree with it, even if that same people contradict what majority stated before (the MK ban)....

 

[DMG]

Apex does what Apex WANTS! It shapes the metagame, because qualifiers and regions preparing to do good for Apex will mirror the ruleset as much as possible to be familiar to the stage list/stalling rules/etc. You don't fight that kind of power, you submit to it lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

S'why I don't like APEX.

 

[Luco]

did you forget earth? who uses pit who is mid tier

Borderline tier is called 'Borderline tier' for a reason, dude.

But to satisfy it anyway, exclude borderline tiers from my equation. =)

@Bubba: Ah yes, sorry.

I think PS2's air part is fine. People freak out about it so much imo but think about it logically for a sec: We dislike stages that hurt a player randomly/if they're not focusing. PS2's air mechanic just means that you have the advantage IF you best the other opponent on the ground and send them in to the air. And even then, it's not impossible to make it back to the ground, especially against non-campy characters. And going off-stage/to the ledge is always an option as well. Or you could sit in the air like fox/Lucas/Ness can do and reflector/magnet stall, or reflect/absorb projectiles anyway.

IMO it's not so big a deal but eh...

As for the conveyor belt, you can't get in to the middle? Okay, don't. Sit there and stay on the ledge or jump or something. It only really hurts if they're a campy character who can deal with you at all angles (this is tough, even for characters like pit and TL) and you can't respond with any ranged attacks of your own. Even then you can just AD the whole time or abuse the ledge or even do the unthinkable and see if you can get them out of the middle (if you have good aerial approaches I don't see this as being too bad...). Again, it has the potential to be annoying but so does frigate, PS1, etc...

I never knew about the rock invincibility but can all characters do it? Even then it sounds like you would be able to get to a part of the stage where that isn't too much of a problem (I wouldn't know because I haven't played the stage in AGES which is a result of not being in the stage-list.)

Other transformations to me seem pretty fine. Ice isn't ridiculous and makes things a lot safer whilst increasing the penalty if you fail (i.e. the tripping issue). Others seem pretty ok.

I dunno, this is just what this stage is to me. Maybe it's too much but IMO it's a fun stage that doesn't go overboard and honestly, if frigate is legal (because i'm one of those people that have never really seen why, except as an example to say other stages should be legal, like this one) then I think PS2 should be legal too.

Frigate is legal right? I forget...

 

[Delta-cod]

*Snip of things we agree on that don't really need to be repeated/discussed*

While its true this effect is only temporary, you are not playing the same game. You may be of the opinion that for a "brief" 20-30 seconds or however long it is, that it is acceptable to play in such an environment and I can respect the opinion that in a competitive setting a player should be tested on all aspects of a game, including stage knowledge. I however believe that in a case like this the changes are to extreme, because the game is fundamentally played differently, and that the reasons we don't play the game on fast brawl, invisible brawl, ect are the same as why I don't believe we should play on the wind transformation.

I personally believe its more competitive to play in an environment that rewards happenstance as rarely as possible.

Yeah, and this is where our differences lie, and it's why we probably won't ever be able to sway each other to change his mind. We just have a different view on what we should be judging, and I'm okay with controlled physics changes that don't take up a large majority of the match. Like, is all of PS2's sections outside of its neutral one messed with the physics, I'd be pretty against it. But it's not, and it falls under an acceptable degree, to me anyways, or randomness/change. After all, PS2 should be a CP if it's legal, so I'd think the fact that it messes with top tiers' spacing/zoning games makes it a pretty solid CP for more ground based/lower tiered characters (assuming their spacing/zoning also isn't ruined by things like the wind section).

But yeah, it's more a difference of what we think is acceptable, which is totally cool and not much more can be said since we agree on all the points.

 

[Loota]

So? What about when the lava/acid rises high enough on Brinstar to cover every platform except for the top one? A lot of people here have already expressed that they would be perfectly fine with Brinstar being legal if not for MK (and some choice other chars), so clearly, being restricted to only one platform for a small period of time isn't a problem. At least the cars give warning before they start hurting you (I'm pretty sure the first couple of cars don't actually damage anyone) as opposed to the lava keeping you guessing when it sporadically switches between rising partway and rising ALL the way. That and the cars can only threaten you like that for only one section of a long stage rotation. Brinstar is constantly threatening to flood the whole stage under its nonsense.

The lava has a clear patterns and you will always know when it's going to cover everything except the top platfrom. It's also not going to kill you at 60% and the lava won't stay up for long enough that characters couldn't avoid it by jumping. You are right that they are quite similar in design but unfortunately they aren't in the same caliber.

Again, I'm not entirely sure how many characters can avoid the cars without using the platform or by some other way if there even is one. I don't know about you but it doesn't sound fair to me if the other player will get hit by the cars if he's not on the top platform.

 

[Patches]

Very well written, I agree.

Hi peachy :3

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

you can jump, dodge, and power shield them if i remember right

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Hi peachy :3

Heyy Patches.

 

[Patches]

Come back to tournies so we can team ):

 

[Supreme Dirt]

you can jump, dodge, and power shield them if i remember right

You can also up taunt with ganondorf.

That said Norfair is a terrible stage mostly due to its enormous size, not the hazards.

ALSO PATCHES HI

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

norfair is fine people just didn't like having norfair RC brinstar because all 3 promote gay **** (like neutrals to with current high tiers) and they kept the 2 that are from melee.

oh and metaknight

 

[bubbaking]

The United Ruleset wasn't recommended. It was mandatory.

I'm fairly certain that I remember that the URC stated that their ruleset was "recommended", not mandatory. How the heck do you enforce a ruleset (more than not stickying threads)? Besides, if this ruleset was "mandatory", that just means that the URC was 'oppressing' the power of the TOs even further. I don't know if this is what you're trying to say or not, but that's the truth of it. The URC was pushing their beliefs onto others.

And that's why Delfino and PS1 matches take so long.

And that's why 'short' timers buff certain chars/strats.

I personally believe its more competitive to play in an environment that rewards happenstance as rarely as possible.

This all the way.

did you forget earth? who uses pit who is mid tier

Don't be silly. Pit is clearly High Tier.

Real talk, I've been arguing that Pit is High Tier material for over a year now. I remember at one point, Gheb even provided results and I provided frame data that strongly suggested that Pit is High Tier-caliber character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm fairly certain that I remember that the URC stated that their ruleset was "recommended", not mandatory. How the heck do you enforce a ruleset (more than not stickying threads)? Besides, if this ruleset was "mandatory", that just means that the URC was 'oppressing' the power of the TOs even further. I don't know if this is what you're trying to say or not, but that's the truth of it. The URC was pushing their beliefs onto others.

That was one of the main problems with it.
The URS was supposed to be ideal, because it was crafted by following community's input and fixing any surging problem, so it would be something everyone could be, at least, okay with.
However, the URC had no idea how to promote the use of their Ruleset (specially after the BBRRR3's failure), so they thought having authority over it was a good idea. It "worked", people who followed it got benefits, and people who didn't got punished with something not very important like not getting a sticky.

Then Apex was announced, and everything that happened afterwards has already been explained here.
Funny enough, Strife was ok with not getting the sticky, but the community still made a fuss about it lol

 

[bubbaking]

I'm always against treating others differently for having different views/beliefs, no matter how insignificant the different treatments actually are. The principle of unfairness is still there. As such, I could never get behind the URC and its ruleset.

And FYI, I was pro-MK ban. I even dropped my first main and my favorite character for it, but I was NOT for treating others differently just because they decided to run their tourneys their own way. The BBR and the URC are not the developers of the game. They have no right to 'officially patch' the game. It's just as bad as trying to make a hacked version of Brawl official at every tournament. Even if it only did something as slight and beneficial as only removing tripping and the random input lag, it would never be universally accepted because it simply isn't officially from the 1st-party creators.

[COLLAPSE="Alex Strife is Brawl's god and I don't like where he's put us. >"]And then a major tournament (oh look, Apex again) got stickied anyway--in fact, that's ultimately why they got disbanded. The sticky thing is kinda like tripping: bad idea? Sure (much more debatably, but I'll stuff that to make a point), but it barely would affect anything. It's not like there's ever much more than like half a dozen stickies (like one or two for a given region), most of which are for tournaments you've probably heard of already (ie nationals or very large regionals) that don't really need the publicity and have relatively active threads.

The orignal beef I had with the URC, back when it was proposed, was twofold: it had BBR in the original name despite being unconnected to that group, and it only had five people (which means that any three of them could basically decide the whole community's rules). They eventually went and fixed both of those problems, and then died. Now we have one TO who decides things, and everyone else (at least in the mainstream--i.e. areas with players who like to think they have a remote shot at placing well) goes along with it because hey, our players have to be prepared for Apex.

I'm not saying Apex itself is a bad thing, but we'd be in a much better place if it had used the Unity ruleset.

One last thing: most people don't care about rulesets (though they should). People went along with Unity when URC had the power, they go along with Apex now that AS has the power, heck, if any TO were actually willing to give it a try they'd have probably gone along with BBR3 eventually (especially if it were a tournament-starved area like mine). Well, okay, maybe not quite that extreme... not that I mind dreaming....

Anyway, the point is that if you asked the general public "Apex or Unity Ruleset", most people would say "either one". Basically you'd only get a strong one-or-the-other response from a few groups: people with strong opinions on the MK ban, people with strong opinions about stages, people that haven't played both, or ex-URC members. I think you'd have a bit of bias towards Apex, but only because people have gotten used to it and don't feel like changing.[/COLLAPSE]

Well then pray to your god.

PS2's air mechanic just means that you have the advantage IF you best the other opponent on the ground and send them in to the air. And even then, it's not impossible to make it back to the ground, especially against non-campy characters. And going off-stage/to the ledge is always an option as well. Or you could sit in the air like fox/Lucas/Ness can do and reflector/magnet stall, or reflect/absorb projectiles anyway.

How do you figure this? Some characters like it in the air and the flying phase lets them camp for days, especially if they're facing ground-based chars. Even DDD, who's usually heavily ground-based can make very good use of the flying phase utilizing his multiple jumps in order to camp if he has a sizable lead. There's no reason not to. I believe all of DDD's CGs are messed up on this phase.

As for the conveyor belt, you can't get in to the middle? Okay, don't. Sit there and stay on the ledge or jump or something. It only really hurts if they're a campy character who can deal with you at all angles (this is tough, even for characters like pit and TL) and you can't respond with any ranged attacks of your own. Even then you can just AD the whole time or abuse the ledge or even do the unthinkable and see if you can get them out of the middle (if you have good aerial approaches I don't see this as being too bad...). Again, it has the potential to be annoying but so does frigate, PS1, etc...

Since Frigate and PS1 are arguably banworthy, comparing PS2 to them doesn't really help PS2's case. There are a whole crapload of chars who can take advantage very well of the control they have of the center of the stage, especially when you have those plats as vantage points. The Links and the PK Kids come to mind but there are definitely more, and then you have chars like MK who can easily just aerial/tornado/MK ALL ACROSS the stage and still maintain control of the center. Even if you have a good aerial approach, trying to usurp control of the center from the opponent is ridiculously difficult because it is a nearly unbroken rule in Smash that being above the opponent puts one at a disadvantage, and those platforms make it even more difficult. The only char I can think of who would have relatively little trouble taking control of the center is MK.

I never knew about the rock invincibility but can all characters do it? Even then it sounds like you would be able to get to a part of the stage where that isn't too much of a problem (I wouldn't know because I haven't played the stage in AGES which is a result of not being in the stage-list.)

We are buffing the time-out strategy now.

Ice isn't ridiculous and makes things a lot safer whilst increasing the penalty if you fail (i.e. the tripping issue). Others seem pretty ok.

Increase the punishment for a random event. Suuuuure.....

After all, PS2 should be a CP if it's legal, so I'd think the fact that it messes with top tiers' spacing/zoning games makes it a pretty solid CP for more ground based/lower tiered characters

The only Top Tier char who matters and that most people should be worrying about is MK and I'm pretty sure that his spacing/zoning game is actually buffed by PS2. Also, I feel like PS2 would actually help aerial-based chars more than ground-based ones.

The lava has a clear patterns and you will always know when it's going to cover everything except the top platfrom. It's also not going to kill you at 60% and the lava won't stay up for long enough that characters couldn't avoid it by jumping. You are right that they are quite similar in design but unfortunately they aren't in the same caliber.

Again, I'm not entirely sure how many characters can avoid the cars without using the platform or by some other way if there even is one. I don't know about you but it doesn't sound fair to me if the other player will get hit by the cars if he's not on the top platform.

I see what you're saying, but this is only one very small part of the stage's rotation. It doesn't play as big of a part in the overall outcome of the match as the rising lava of Brinstar does. I'm having trouble remembering, but I really don't think the cars last much longer than the risen lava on Brinstar, if they even last longer at all. Don't forget that the cars don't immediately start hurting you when they appear.