Official BBR Tier List v7

[Espy Rose]

Still though if a Marth player had won Apex there would be people arguing that he's 2nd best in the game again, and they would be taken seriously. What a joke.

No.
The Marth mains are strange, I'll give you that, but unlike some posts in this thread, they certainly aren't foolish enough to assert something so outrageous.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No.
The Marth mains are strange, I'll give you that, but unlike some posts in this thread, they certainly aren't foolish enough to assert something so outrageous.

I see what you did there.

 

[Nintenpro]

anyone who argues that Pika/Marth have better results than ZSS are straight up ********.

Marth has better results than ZSS in Japan and in Europe

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As somebody who refers to tournament results 90% of the time in his arguments, I absolutely despise how inconsistent, subjective and inaccurate you make use of them.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Good point, shall I lock the thread?

I say yes when tier list 8 is being worked on instead of MU chart v3.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

As somebody who refers to tournament results 90% of the time in his arguments, I absolutely despise how inconsistent, subjective and inaccurate you make use of them.

I don't abide that strictly by them, not as strictly as you do anyway. (By the way, were you talking to me? You didn't quote anyone-)

I think they're important and worth looking at, especially when they are very contrary to popular belief. Like, for example, we know Sonic can place pretty well when people play him, so I think that's worth looking at.

I don't think (and I doubt you either) that the tier list should strictly be a list of results in numerical order. Also, I don't always go through the trouble of looking up recent results which can skew my arguments a little int he wrong direction, so I apologize for that.

Like, the ICs are beating ZSS recently, so you might have a point about the match-up, but on the other hand, a lot of ICs players agree with ZSS having a slight advantage too. It isn't really just a bunch of ZSS players sayin' stuff.

 

[Steam]

Better examples are probably how Pika and Falco have better MU spreads than Snake and G&W has a better MU spread than every high tier except DDD and ZSS. Are you going to tell me that Game is a better character than Lucario? Oh, and don't get me started on DDD's MU spread and how non-indicative of his tier list position it actually is.

G&W is a better character than lucario

 

[pidgezero_one]

why do japan/europe results matter for a NA tier list?

don't we have our own tier lists

 

[~ Gheb ~]

G&W is a better character than lucario

Are you sure? GW is a pretty bad character.

 

[bubbaking]

What pidge said.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

G&W is a better character than lucario

Hell no. Lucario can force an approach. G&W can't

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Why is everyone saying that marth has no results? Does everyone not remember he just outpaced every character except mk and zss at apex? I know that is only one tournament but it is the biggest one...

 

[bubbaking]

I think people are mostly saying that Marth had no good results (in the US) before Apex '13 while ZSS has always had much better ones than him and even at APEX, where Marth finally did well, ZSS still did better. Some people are saying, "Marth finally gave us what we asked for. Why are people putting him down?" Others are saying, "Well ZSS has been giving us all we need for at least two years. Why has she always been put down?"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think people are mostly saying that Marth had no good results (in the US) before Apex '13 while ZSS has always had much better ones than him and even at APEX, where Marth finally did well, ZSS still did better. Some people are saying, "Marth finally gave us what we asked for. Why are people putting him down?" Others are saying, "Well ZSS has been giving us all we need for at least two years. Why has she always been put down?"

This sums it up very, very well

The answer to this question is always "I think she has some bad match-ups" or "because she's not as good," but only the former has any quantifiable data associated, and even though she'll lose some match-ups, most top players of both characters still say the match-ups are around even or with a slight advantage to either side. I'm not saying the data doesn't suggest anything, but ZSS isn't exactly getting destroyed vs. Olimar or Diddy or ICs or whatever, it's more like the matches are close and ZSS loses them slightly every time, which you could expect even from a match-up that is about even. Having an advantage isn't the same thing as winning (or MK would never lose), you'd need a sample size much larger than the ones we have for ZSS vs iCS for example to even begin to correlate the two.

The latter has zero merit whatsoever because despite your opinion on ZSS as a character she still does really well. Her negative traits are either not as bad as you think or not holding her back as much as you'd like. Discussion on a character's bad traits should be focused more on why a character is doing poorly rather than why they shouldn't be doing as well as they are, the latter is entirely meaningless because no one can really back it up.

Plus Apex. So there.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I think people are mostly saying that Marth had no good results (in the US) before Apex '13 while ZSS has always had much better ones than him and even at APEX, where Marth finally did well, ZSS still did better. Some people are saying, "Marth finally gave us what we asked for. Why are people putting him down?" Others are saying, "Well ZSS has been giving us all we need for at least two years. Why has she always been put down?"

Yeah I see what you are saying. Personally I dont see why people are putting down zss or marth you dont get lucky brackets at a tourney like apex. I just dont see how you can have these characters beating the best players in the world in the biggest tourney and then argue that it doesn't mean anything cause they aren't consistent. There are just as many zss in the top 32 (thanks bubba for correcting me on the 28 I kept saying) as there were any other top tier minus marth and ice climbers and mk. also marth and ice climbers have just as much rep as each other in top 32. Only beaten by mk for rep. That is just for this tournament but that shows some consistency. Neither characters could reasonably be argued flukes just looking at these results as there are 2 zss's and three marths.

 

[pidgezero_one]

lol at facing otori twice being considered easy bracket

 

[bubbaking]

^The truth....for both characters.

Edit: Darn you pidge for sneaking a post in between Bob's and mine!

 

[Z'zgashi]

Are you sure? GW is a pretty bad character.

Lucario > GW. Dont listen to Steam, hes dumb.

 

[Diddy Kong]

ZSS to me seems to be deserving to be at Wario's place if anything.

And actually, I'm also starting to worry about Diddy's placement.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How can you worry about your own placement?

 

[bubbaking]

Akuma worries about his own placement all the time. Why do you think he's so determined to "GRIND BENEATH HIS HEEL ALL THAT EXISTS"?

 

[Seagull Joe]

only loses to three characters (,,) -1. He's top 5 in the game easily. cannot hold a candle to .

Edit: SFP's post made me lool.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy loses to Olimar, ICs and Falco too. The character is slightly overrated.

 

[bubbaking]

I thought we were just talking about how Diddy beats Wario... I don't know much about the MU, but I remember that topic coming up.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just depends on who you ask, really.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I personally dont think Diddy loses to Falco at all, and while I guess Oli is debatable, id say its an even match up. As for Diddy v ICs, I have conflicted opinions, so I dont know what I personally would put that MU at, but it would definitely be either 0 or +1 ICs favor.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy vs Falco isn't all that hard. Diddy can get around the lasers easier than most, and combo him very well. It's about even I think, but definitely not on Falco's side. Snake and Wario are hard to kill, Olimar is a *****, but the ICs are easy to separate with nanners, so that makes it hard to think ICs would have an advantage.

Of coarse I worry about my placement. Otherwise MetaKnight gets all the *****es.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ICs are easy to separate with nanners, so that makes it hard to think ICs would have an advantage.

That 2009 logic.

 

[Gardex]

ADHD was doing pretty well until the Sopo was pulled out

Also G&W is legit, I promise!
I promise

 

[infiniteV115]

I still think Ness is underrated.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That 2009 logic.

Side B sex kick is also sexy against them.

Getting grabbed however isn't.

But Diddy has aerial advantage over them easily. He should play a bit more defensively than usual, but isn't that what most characters should do against the ICs?

Are there any Diddy vids uploaded yet though?

 

[DEHF]

only loses to three characters (,,) -1. He's top 5 in the game easily. cannot hold a candle to .

Edit: SFP's post made me lool.

loses to -1 as well and I'm pretty sure he loses to and quite possibly

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Are there any Diddy vids uploaded yet though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-ZPIlzZEbA

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I still think Ness is underrated.

Ness is a tough one to place, he hasn't done well in tourneys in a while. And despite his awesome moveset he also has a gigantic flaw that can't be ignored. Also his ledge options suck. Like, bad.

 

[NickRiddle]

His ledge options suck?
Ledge normal jump into air-dodge that leaves no gap in invulnerability sucks?
Invulnerable nair sucks?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Sucks" is the wrong word, more like "limited." He has good options but they're super predictable, you basically always know what he'll do. Putting him on the ledge severely limits his choices. :\ IMO anyway.

 

[NickRiddle]

If he's on the ledge, you're doing it wrong.
Hit him off-stage, tag his jump, and fall into PKT1.

 

[Player-1]

diddy loses to wario, MK, olimar, falco, and snake. I'm starting to think that pit might beat diddy too if Pit is going for the timeout right from the beginning. After playing 9b and watching suinoko vs esam and 9b vs adhd I think the MU is even

 

[C.J.]

IC is even with Diddy. Sopo wins 6:4 though

 

[Diddy Kong]

The matchup is quite even, ICs just have the advantage that nobody plays them, so nobody knows how to play against them. ADHD held up quite well against them in the first game, and it proves how well Diddy does preform against them.

Kinda.

Am just disapointed at the lack of Diddy's. It's called APE-X peeps! Next time, bring yo Apes!