Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

I still think Ness is underrated.

I still think that if G&W +4's Puff, then Marth, and possibly DDD, +4 Ness.

Ness is a tough one to place, he hasn't done well in tourneys in a while. And despite his awesome moveset he also has a gigantic flaw that can't be ignored. Also his ledge options suck. Like, bad.

Not really disagreeing with you here, but I think top 32 at Apex 2013 is pretty good, especially when the only non-Top Tier chars in there were Earth's Pit, Nakat's Fox (and I hear Nakat went MK to win when he did, so...), and Atomsk's DDD (which was complimented by his Wario and MK, so...). I'm not gonna mention ZSS, 'cause she should obviously be Top Tier.

If he's on the ledge, you're doing it wrong.
Hit him off-stage, tag his jump, and fall into PKT1.

This. John12346 and I do it all the time to Ness. If you're comfortable offstage, just follow him when you hit him off. He's going to have to DJ sometime if he doesn't want to die and you can just hit him out of that. Once that's done, getting hit by or absorbing PKT is a simple matter. I'm honestly starting to believe that G&W +3's Ness largely for this reason. He just ***** him offstage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy loses to Olimar, ICs and Falco too. The character is slightly overrated.

If this were true, there would be no reason for Diddy to be above any of the characters you say he loses to. If anything, I feel that Diddy is underrated. Most players panic and shield too much at higher percents. Smart Diddy players can just stand there and watch the opponent's shield diminish.

 

[NickRiddle]

Smart other players just won't shield preemptively. We can react to things just as much as Diddy players can.

 

[DEHF]

If this were true, there would be no reason for Diddy to be above any of the characters you say he loses to. If anything, I feel that Diddy is underrated. Most players panic and shield too much at higher percents. Smart Diddy players can just stand there and watch the opponent's shield diminish.

Nah bro, Diddy is overrated.

Any character can just stand there and watch their opponent's shield diminsh, this isn't exclusive to Diddy.

 

[eshu125]

Look back through the thread to see the other results ZSS has had over the last couple of years

Salem didn't just win one tourney, he won one of the largest tourneys ever beating several noteworthy players. You can't do that with Lucario, or Toon Link.

At the very least ZSS deserves her own tier between where she is now and top tier. At the very least.

"You can't do that with Lucario, or Toon Link"

Pretty sure Zero Suit Samus was on that list before Salem just won apex.

 

[Seagull Joe]

ZSS to me seems to be deserving to be at Wario's place if anything.

And actually, I'm also starting to worry about Diddy's placement.

How can you worry about your own placement?

Of coarse I worry about my placement. Otherwise MetaKnight gets all the *****es.

Am just disapointed at the lack of Diddy's. It's called APE-X peeps! Next time, bring yo Apes!

I'm done. I fell to the floor and spit up laughing at 's posts and SFP's response.

 

[LobsterKane]

Still disappointed Luigi took such a fall.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Has anyone forgotten about Snakee's early dominance or Claw's 3rd/97 placement @ a Large WC regional beating DSF from 09? ZSS has always been a character to do well in brawl, and whoever said that ZSS is a character that takes a lot of skill is accurate. ZSS is probably in the same tier as Marth. It's just taken us longer to realize her potential due to her low player base, but her results & overall strong punishment game, range, and mobility suggest that she can be a top tier or high tier depending on how you establish the tier list.

 

[| Big D |]

I definitely forgot.

 

[bubbaking]

"You can't do that with Lucario, or Toon Link"

Pretty sure Zero Suit Samus was on that list before Salem just won apex.

ZSS has been consistently getting better results at regionals, nationals, and internationals than either of those two other characters, so I'm pretty sure your argument isn't very valid.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, with Lucario I'm not so sure, but TL's MK match-up is unusually bad.

BTW while apex was happening ZSS won a tourney in europe

 

[Diddy Kong]

You know, I don't even really think Snake is such a bad matchup for Diddy as many people like to say. Sure, Snake CAN kill you easier, that's if: 1) you don't gimp him first 2) he can actually hit you. Diddy and Snake both like to camp, but against each other they can't. But Diddy has better options than camping vs Snake, and is fastly superior in the air. I'd call it 50/50 really. Falco also ain't half that bad, and strikes to me as 50/50 as well, same with the ICs (I believe ADHD would've won if he hadn't picked Smash Ville the second time). So only Wario, Olimar and MK are real treats. And Wario isn't even all that bad, just stupid.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I haven't seen anything to indicate that Falco would be any worse than even, where is this opinion coming from?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Falco players apperantly.

Diddy doesn't mind lasers as much as 75% of the cast imo.

And personally, I'd rank it 55-45.

-

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't think loses to . From what I have gathered (What Zinoto told me), is actually one of the simplest characters to start and do the naner infinite on. If suffers RCO lag even once (He will from recovering or IAP'ing on stage), and is in range, then that can lead to an entire stock loss for . I think that's very significant.

seems annoying and I don't know this matchup from either side. I have watched Lie consistently beat Logic in vs , but that is not top level play. I could see it as 's favor +1 though.

is debatable. I think if the is playing perfect with his naners spaced well (One always in hand and one in front) then has to work much harder. As I watched 9B Cg Adhd, Adhd's somehow dropped the naner while he was being cg'd, which let him break free. I see this matchup more as even as long as bans smashville. Fd gives so much room to run.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy can kill Falco much, much easier than other High / Top tier characters (except maybe Marth), and Diddy players KNOW that finishing off is one of their character's flaws (outside of our oh-so-awesome gimps ). So it's something we're aware of. Yet, Falco players are smart ones, so caution is always needed. Falco is good with bananas as well, so keeping 1 instead of 2 out is a better option most of the time.

And as said before, I believe AHDH would've won if he didn't pick SV for the 3rd match. But again, caution is needed vs the Climbers, even more so than with Falco.

On a different note, I like the Diddy vs Falco matchup a lot cause of how dynamic it is.

 

[Zinoto]

- is 45:55. On paper it's even, but when it's actually played out things never seem to go our way. Once other players start realizing how many crazy set ups we have on to get the infinite, maybe then it'll become even.

is a ******** character. After having to play like all the notable players at APEX I officially hate the MU. If you are not constantly thinking and outplaying your opponent, you are getting destroyed. I'd set it at -1 for us.

I don't really think beats anymore. Like I usually live to 160%+ against them (to the point where they have to kill me with dash attack) and it just doesn't feel like a tough MU. Also, he's really slow and very easy to combo. If we don't stale fair or fsmash, we can kill him at 150-160% as well. I'd say the MU is even honestly.

The IC MU is even, but Sopo beats 70-30. More players should run off the stage and bair out of the belay. ADHD tries to dtilt the ledge (even though that doesn't work at all); however, if he just runs off and bairs him out of belay, it will likely claim the stock. I've used this on Nakat, Ikon, Roller, and every other IC player I've played. It's very effective.

I don't think loses to . From what I have gathered (What Zinoto told me), is actually one of the simplest characters to start and do the naner infinite on. If suffers RCO lag even once (He will from recovering or IAP'ing on stage), and is in range, then that can lead to an entire stock loss for . I think that's very significant.

seems annoying and I don't know this matchup from either side. I have watched Lie consistently beat Logic in vs , but that is not top level play. I could see it as 's favor +1 though.

is debatable. I think if the is playing perfect with his naners spaced well (One always in hand and one in front) then has to work much harder. As I watched 9B Cg Adhd, Adhd's somehow dropped the naner while he was being cg'd, which let him break free. I see this matchup more as even as long as bans smashville. Fd gives so much room to run.

All of this is very true and Lie is probably the best Diddy at the MU. He just seems to do everything right lol. You are definitely correct about , but it just never seems to work out. The set up can be right in front of me and I'll just miss it blatantly. Also if you do the commands the do to i-bomb in between grabs, you will drop a banana.

Also, Wyatt, P1, and myself have all come to the conclusion that P1 is the best .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is Diddy F-Air not better at dealing with Belay than B-Air? I figure it would be since it lasts longer...

 

[Zinoto]

Is Diddy F-Air not better at dealing with Belay than B-Air? I figure it would be since it lasts longer...

I'm referring to when ICs belay the ledge while you are on stage. It's probably best if I give an example:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0POwmztdds&t=7m42s

Even if they tech the stage spike, you can just jump back up there and hit nana instead since her invincibility will wear off. If they don't tech it, it's a free stock since they can't get control of nana.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Makes sense. It's always seemed so fast, but if you know when it's coming, it's much better to go for the low-cooldown option. Good call.

 

[bubbaking]

45:55 sounds like a 0, though. I mean, 0 doesn't technically have to be completely dead even. It could probably range from a 45:55 to a 55:45 and still be called a 0. I know we're not supposed to compare our current MU values to ratios, but still...

 

[Player-1]

I don't think loses to . From what I have gathered (What Zinoto told me), is actually one of the simplest characters to start and do the naner infinite on. If suffers RCO lag even once (He will from recovering or IAP'ing on stage), and is in range, then that can lead to an entire stock loss for . I think that's very significant.

seems annoying and I don't know this matchup from either side. I have watched Lie consistently beat Logic in vs , but that is not top level play. I could see it as 's favor +1 though.

is debatable. I think if the is playing perfect with his naners spaced well (One always in hand and one in front) then has to work much harder. As I watched 9B Cg Adhd, Adhd's somehow dropped the naner while he was being cg'd, which let him break free. I see this matchup more as even as long as bans smashville. Fd gives so much room to run.

you are dumb, stop posting about characters that aren't wolf

 

[| Big D |]

Diddy's strongest starter vs ICs is SV imo.

 

[Diddy Kong]

- is 45:55. On paper it's even, but when it's actually played out things never seem to go our way. Once other players start realizing how many crazy set ups we have on to get the infinite, maybe then it'll become even.

is a ******** character. After having to play like all the notable players at APEX I officially hate the MU. If you are not constantly thinking and outplaying your opponent, you are getting destroyed. I'd set it at -1 for us.

I don't really think beats anymore. Like I usually live to 160%+ against them (to the point where they have to kill me with dash attack) and it just doesn't feel like a tough MU. Also, he's really slow and very easy to combo. If we don't stale fair or fsmash, we can kill him at 150-160% as well. I'd say the MU is even honestly.

The IC MU is even, but Sopo beats 70-30. More players should run off the stage and bair out of the belay. ADHD tries to dtilt the ledge (even though that doesn't work at all); however, if he just runs off and bairs him out of belay, it will likely claim the stock. I've used this on Nakat, Ikon, Roller, and every other IC player I've played. It's very effective.



All of this is very true and Lie is probably the best Diddy at the MU. He just seems to do everything right lol. You are definitely correct about , but it just never seems to work out. The set up can be right in front of me and I'll just miss it blatantly. Also if you do the commands the do to i-bomb in between grabs, you will drop a banana.

Also, Wyatt, P1, and myself have all come to the conclusion that P1 is the best .

Vs Falco I always feel that both character really hate going off stage against each other. But unlike Falco, Diddy can have a banana in hand, throw it upwards and prevent a D Air coming at his face. Diddy's recovery is also better, and he's heavier thus lives longer generally.

Thing is, Falco can really get Diddy out of his momentum. But when Diddy really gets INTO that momentum he wrecks the **** out of him. He can build up a lot of damage in a short ammount of time. It pretty much comes to smarts in this matchup, and Falco has to adapt to Diddy much more than Diddy to Falco.

Snake is far more of a joke though. Even feel the matchup could be 55-45, if not leaning to 60-40.

B Air might be favored to gimp ICs cause it doesn't go stale as much and is far less predictable than F Air. But it'd depend of coarse. Sure, if F Air hasn't gone stale yet it's the better option, but B Air is the quick element of surprise so to say.

It all just comes down to one thing: more people need to play Diddy.

 

[Player-1]

falco is lighter than diddy, his fall speed is faster though which makes him live longer generally

 

[bubbaking]

Someone (I think V115) mentioned Impact IV and then I remembered a set of results close to home for ZSS.

Impact IV (8/25/12 - MK Banned) had 51 entrants, which I think is pretty darn large for a local, and Salem got 5th. There were a LOT of top and high players in attendance (Anti, Dabuz, Vinnie, ADHD, Fatal, Nairo, Will, Nakat, Keitaro, False, Dill, Bizkit, Raptor, Malcolm, Pane, Bloodcross, Delta, etc).

In bracket, he took out MikeKirby, Raptor, Will, Dill, and Kingtoon. More good results for ZSS.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That only means he'll fall to his death more quickly when a peanut is popped at his face.

Fall speed doesn't really determine so much as with Melee though right? Diddy ain't that floaty either, so both would probably stay on stage on similar %s. Off-stage however, Diddy has better chances of survival than Falco, if only slightly.

 

[bubbaking]

I disagree with that statement. Diddy is so much easier to gimp than Falco unless Falco is forced to upB. Then Falco is easier. I don't really know how good either of them are at gimping, though. DDD seldom has to worry about such things.

Also, Wyatt, P1, and myself have all come to the conclusion that P1 is the best .

Better than ADHD? Who got higher at APEX again?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Ness is underrated.

He's also awful.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ness is so good and so bad. He has several top 5 moves in the game, his aerials are just disgusting. And that bthrow wtf

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ness is sexy in his uglyness. :noness:

And he's OKAY with that.

 

[pidgezero_one]

In all honesty though, I need to work on timing his dsmash stage spike.

That thing is ****ing legit to have in your game

 

[Yodery]

Marth has no trouble against Ness.

 

[pidgezero_one]

^ I will murder you in your sleep

 

[Yodery]

>implying I sleep

 

[Diddy Kong]

^

Poor Ness mains... Even in low tier, you'll have to watch out for Zard.

 

[Yodery]

Tbh tho, I never 'complete' Marth's grab infinite against Ness or Lucas. I feel so... dirty when I do it.

Yeah yeah, I know, play to win, but you know what I mean lol.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Yeah, I feel so dirty CGing that I still don't have the timing down for any of Dedede's or Pikachu's.

And they're my secondaries.

 

[Yodery]

Except when I do it on Basic Brawl, of course. That **** is hilarious.

As for DDD's grab infinite, it's not that hard, imo. You just have to buffer it; is that what you're having trouble with?

 

[pidgezero_one]

yeah I couldn't even buffer my own asfootballs if i tried