Official BBR Tier List v7

[PSI Nexus]

I don't really see why the Mekos being an outlier is such a big deal. IRC, there was a lot of controversy during the 1st tier list of whether or not MK or Snake was best. But then M2K came around was crushing everyone because he was so much better - wouldn't that make him an outlier at the time therefore, MK shouldn't have been considered the best then. Also, Reflex already mentioned himself.

Of course, M2K's record was far more substantial, but still... Outliers (Nietono, anyone?)...

Either way, keep Lucas in LT.

Literally all of it? Does it work that way for Link/Toon Link, as well? Ivysaur/Olimar Up-B?

I don't know, it might work for Link and TL, but Ivysaur/Olimar are up specials so they have landing lag.

Lucas is pretty good

Spoiler

in Project M

**** Project M.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It actually doesn't get rid of the lag. What happens is that Lucas actually shifts down so he lands earlier which messes up the timing of his normal jump so people will react late/Lucas can do things earlier than most people would expect.

 

[Esotera]

It actually doesn't get rid of the lag. What happens is that Lucas actually shifts down so he lands earlier which messes up the timing of his normal jump so people will react late/Lucas can do things earlier than most people would expect.

I only assume he knows this from hanging with Mekos, so take his word for it. I don't really know where I got my info from, I just knew it made things faster. Thanks for clearing this up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can do the same thing with double jumps that "dip", right?

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi isn't even a noticeably bad MU for Lucas. -2 at the worst, but I'd put it at -1.

 

[Mekos]

It actually doesn't get rid of the lag. What happens is that Lucas actually shifts down so he lands earlier which messes up the timing of his normal jump so people will react late/Lucas can do things earlier than most people would expect.

Esam is correct. It also allows me to space differently(have more control where I land. More control over my vertical and horizontal momentum when I short hop) than if I were to just air dodge. This is crucial for lucas and the most important part of it. U wouldn't understand this unless u played lucas. Notice how in dubs my followups are spaced really well and I'm not hitting my partner. This is partially because of my spacing allowed by snaking

@Delta cod - The fact that lucas can be chain grabbed across stages at any percent and then u guys get a free up smash hurts alot. -2 imo. It's also hard for us to fight yall off the stage. I usually f up alot of people off the stage. The things that make lucas great basically don't work to well on Yoshi. For example, I mess up alot of people with mixups while they are on the ledge. Yoshi's eggs stop that. The matches are always close with Polt. Last hit game 3. But I that is one matchup I still def give to the other character(yoshi).

 

[Player-1]

I just assumed it let you actually buffer stuff since if you just land with nothing you have barely any frames of lag if any so it wouldn't be very big of a buffer window and if you try to buffer before you land then it'll input a move, with the snake you could buffer stuff during the lag of the snake

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

namesearch gnes sync trela


look at these people. trying to be bufferers :/

 

[Mew2King]

I don't see why all this matters so much. I realized (even I do this all the time but idk why) it doesn't matter exact rankings all the time, and that's all that is really discussed. I wish people would just show up at tournaments and play the game and have fun and get better and stuff instead and important stuff like expand the community.

 

[Esotera]

^^^ This man speaks the truth.

 

[Mekos]

Believing in characters does expand the community buddy. The smash community has a real negative attitude towards alot of things. We must resist that. If people lose, they have johns. If it's not a tourney match it doesn't count and people have the john that they didn't try. If you play lucas the character is trash and u should pick someone else. If u play mk, u only won cuz u use the best character in the game. etc.

And this is a tier list thread m2k so we can talk about it. duh

It just blows my mind how in this community so many people have the john of not trying if its not a tourney match. In FPS u try and constantly work to keep yer individual skills sharp and build yer teamwork even if it's not a tourney match. This helps the community cuz alot of people get better by playing better people and experiencing high level play.
How can u do that if u never get to play them in tourney and in friendlies they just mess around(this is the smash community). U have to offer money to get someone to try lol. Of course im speaking generally. People come up to me for money matches all the time and I tell them to save their money. I will try without money on the line. I even meet people on wifi who ask lololol

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't see why all this matters so much. I realized (even I do this all the time but idk why) it doesn't matter exact rankings all the time, and that's all that is really discussed. I wish people would just show up at tournaments and play the game and have fun and get better and stuff instead and important stuff like expand the community.

Ironic cause you just play this game for money. You said it yourself.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I just assumed it let you actually buffer stuff since if you just land with nothing you have barely any frames of lag if any so it wouldn't be very big of a buffer window and if you try to buffer before you land then it'll input a move, with the snake you could buffer stuff during the lag of the snake

I mean, you still have 2-4 frames of landing lag if you do nothing. It's not hard to time.

 

[Player-1]

that window sounds pretty hard to me :/

 

[Espy Rose]

Ironic cause you just play this game for money. You said it yourself.

Shots. Fired.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

that window sounds pretty hard to me :/

You're only really doing it when you're landing from a single jump. If you're just trying to land -> buffered move with most characters, you may as well airdodge. Same amount of landing lag, but you're invulnerable before that.

 

[Doc King]

I can't believe so many people want Lucas to be mid tier.

I find that Lucas should remain low tier. He's really more close to Mario than he is to Luigi. Lucas has a few alright options (Like most low tiers do), but he really has some big flaws. He's the only character who can get ground and air released for combos. He falls pretty fast and can get comboed and chaingrabbed pretty well for not so great survivability. His recovery is pretty garbage, he doesn't kill so well, and his options are pretty predictable and punishable (And kind of slow in a way). His range sucks too (Maybe mediocre but just meh). He does have some cool flashy mindgames, but they don't really help and can often be punished.

Luigi can punish really hard once he gets in and has a good offense game.

Sheik can combo pretty well and edge guard well. Just has a hard time against Pika and Climbers.

Ness has much good power and has much better options.

Yoshi can combo well and he's faster and his mobility doesn't get punished.

PT you have reflex.

Ike has some good combos and range.

The problem with Lucas is that he doesn't have any offense strategie (Like Falcon) and has to rely on just using random moves and zig zags and not get ****ed up. He also has very poor mid tier matchups like Sheik and DK.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

^ very well said. i couldn't agree more

 

[Mekos]

oh Doc king that is what I'm saying. Before the snaking yer right I couldn't get in and I would say lucas should be low tier without it. It makes that much of a difference but i guess u wouldn't understand unless u play lucas. Yall just need to play me to see I guess.

For example, I used to get bodied by wolfs before my new playstyle and ATs. Ask wolfs. They will tell u I handle them well. I believe that matchup is even now.

 

[Doc King]

oh Doc king that is what I'm saying. Before the snaking yer right I couldn't get in and I would say lucas should be low tier without it. It makes that much of a difference but i guess u wouldn't understand unless u play lucas. Yall just need to play me to see I guess.

Even if you win it would be because ur obviously the better player because ur high level and I'm just a casual wifi player.

Also, Esam had a good thread about why Lucas was low tier and it really makes sense.

One thing I wanna point out is that Low tier doesn't mean the character can never win a tournament. They will occasionally win something but overall, they're just too limited and bad to the metagame.

 

[Mekos]

Well we had a good discussion. Yall can move on now.

 

[Life]

Mekos just went and piqued my interest in Lucas again. Siiigh.

 

[Doc King]

Ok low tier player.

That Fox placement really did have numerous opinions. Some ppl said that Fox was high tier and other said he was mid. It makes sense where he was. Wolf surpassed him because of his much better keep away and mobility. The whole borderline was pretty good because it was hard to determine mid and high tier.

BTW, when are write ups coming?

 

[Mekos]

@Doc - What a ****. Yer lucky I've changed. In the past I would have burned yer face alive

Thanks Complex.

 

[Esotera]

Doc you really don't know much about Lucas if you think he has bad recovery and can't kill well... lol. But everything else you say is true.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

The snaking doesn't make THAT big of a deal, though...

 

[Mekos]

Move on...u don't play him. U don't know. It does. If I played u in the past Esam without it u would 3 stock me.

 

[Doc King]

@Doc - What a ****. Yer lucky I've changed. In the past I would have burned yer face alive

Thanks Complex.

lol. Instead of flaming me why don't you explain why Lucas should be mid tier.

Doc you really don't know much about Lucas if you think he has bad recovery and can't kill well... lol. But everything else you say is true.

Well he has alright of those (Recovery is kind of bad). I really don't know too much about him, but I do know that he's a bad character.

 

[Mekos]

dude yer late to the party. Go back and read pgs. Get the full understanding of the discussion. I'm not repeating myself. We are done here. We can move on. And I'm not flaming u.

 

[Doc King]

I said ok.

I was talking about Fox, look at page 63 please, thank you very much.

Spoiler

Lucas Sucks!

 

[Esotera]

Well he has alright of those (Recovery is kind of bad). I really don't know too much about him, but I do know that he's a bad character.

Um his recovery is actually quite good, and ALLof his moves kill except jab and dtilt. His bat has ridiculous killing power and is wicked fast. Usmash kinda kills, idk if you heard, dsmash also has hella knockback. Like honestly the GR is really what puts Lucas so low. If Lucas gets grabbed and he's high percentage then its kinda gg. That you say "but I do know that he's a bad character"proves to me that you have a closed mind. That's just a toxic way to think about the game.

 

[Lukingordex]

His recovery is pretty garbage, he doesn't kill so well, and his options are pretty predictable and punishable (And kind of slow in a way). His range sucks too (Maybe mediocre but just meh). He does have some cool flashy mindgames, but they don't really help and can often be punished.

The problem with Lucas is that he doesn't have any offense strategie (Like Falcon) and has to rely on just using random moves and zig zags and not get ****ed up.

Lucas has the snake hope,the PSI magnet and the pk fire too(yes,it can be used to recovery).
The problem in the Lucas´ recovery is because it is a little slow,but it works after all.
And I hope you do not think that pk thunder is the only Lucas´ recovery option.

Lucas is not that bad at killing,only if he faces a really heavy enemy...

Also,his Dair has a setup on some characters for Dtilt/Fsmash/UPSMASH/DownSmash.

 

[Esotera]

Dair ->dtilt works on everyone... but I mean, it can be teched.

 

[Player-1]

Doc King Vs Mekos less go

 

[Eddie G]

Ok so...snaking basically sharpens a butterknife into a moderately sharp steak knife, as opposed to the broadswords, axes, and machetes already present in the metagame. Hmm...

 

[Doc King]

lol Dair, you can just tech that ****.

The thing is that Lucas's options leave him so you can punish him. Like you will know when he will PSI magnet because the flames will show it and he can't go the other direction or else you will either fall or use his **** up b recovery.

Snake is so pointless and ****. Snake is a small ranged grab that can't be used to attack.

also I know that pk fire can be used to recover but it's predictable. Why do you think D3, Snake, and Zelda have such bad recoverys, because they're predictable and punishable.

In Brawl, recovery range doesn't matter as much as prediction because gimping is near impossible. Edge guarding is mostly about punishing and damage racking.

Grab release is a major flaw for him, he can get both ground and air released. He also has comboing problems for a middle weighted character.

Lucas sucks, accept it.

 

[Mekos]

mwahahaahaaha this guy is just proving my earlier point. U HAVE NO CLUE WHAT YER TALKING ABOUT.

Stop while yer ahead. Go play melee

U know there is something called "thinking" in this game. Try it. U can do mixups with yer recovery. Oh goodness.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I'm pretty sure if you hold up on the control stick you won't get hit into the lock, even if you don't tech it. (the lucas dair to dtilt)

 

[Mekos]

Lets stay away from theory yall. Everyone misses the tech sometimes. Cmon now.

 

[allshort17]

You forget about his pretty good projectile, his above average airmobility, and the fact his weight isn't really considered in the light class, thus giving him more survivability compared to others his size.

And he has plenty of things to get around his recovery. Zap jump, magnet pull, and his tether grab all come to mind. You also can't really call everything predictable either to prove your point. Unless you are a high level player fighting him or a low level Lucas player, you won't predict everything he does. There are plenty of ways to make what he does safe and unpredictable.