Official BBR Tier List v7

[Esotera]

I think the data encompasses the last year or so, but, I suppose I'm just guessing.

As far as bracket stuff goes, it is what it is. If your character were better, he wouldn't have to worry about extremely bad matchups. :/

Well, I'm not sure what Mekos thinks of that MU, but in the Lucas community Snake is almost THE cp to Lucas, excluding maybe Marth. It's like Falco's Pikachu or Wario's D3.

 

[smashkng]

Calm down Mekos. Take a break and think more about how much sense your posts make. Like, Ike has far less "bad" matchups and the only one close to that is MK. Then he just has MUs like Olimar and maybe Falco that are a bit hard (though -2 at worst) and everything else is completely manageable, unlike Lucas who has more than just one hard MU.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

ugh shots fired...that hurt Esam. But mada mada

Dude I've been going to tourneys since 2010.
Here is my question for u. What is the time frame for that data? 2008 to 2012?

No, it isn't shots fired. You are spouting that people aren't responding to you when you don't actually know what you are talking about in terms of the actual creation of the tier list.


The MU is based on the last MU chart which came out after the last tier list came out. The money is from the last tier list (The data was being compiled by John #s).

All the success of characters from the beginning of the game have influences people's opinions on the characters in terms of the voting. The metagame has advanced and people have changed their opinions (clearly), but the underdeveloped/underrepresented characters (AKA the low tiers) pretty much show no improvement in terms of national success. Sheik has, Ike has, Luigi has, and EVERY CHARACTER ABOVE LUCAS ON THE TIER LIST has. Why should people hold a high opinion of lucas? Because you do good in North Carolina? Because you have beat maybe 4-5 players that are recognized nationally as really good? Oh wait, Luigi did WAY MORE than that at MLG, Ike STILL does way more than that, Sheilda has done more than that. Like, I don't even know what you are debating anymore.

And, for the last time, it doesn't matter if YOU, MEKOS THE LUCAS PLAYER has beat a top Ike/Sheilda player. It. Doesn't. Matter. Head to head DOESN'T ****ING MATTER! It might slightly change the MU chart, but it takes more than one instance to change **** anyway.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, I'm not sure what Mekos thinks of that MU, but in the Lucas community Snake is almost THE cp to Lucas, excluding maybe Marth. It's like Falco's Pikachu or Wario's D3.

Right, and you don't see Falco players or Wario players arguing their lowered spots on the tier list. It is unfortunate that Lucas has an awful matchup against a really popular character and (apparently) Yoshi.

 

[Jimmy?]

Well, I'm not sure what Mekos thinks of that MU, but in the Lucas community Snake is almost THE cp to Lucas, excluding maybe Marth. It's like Falco's Pikachu or Wario's D3.

Both Snake and Marth are played more than Pikachu and Wario, though... right? So just because the number of hard counters are the same (even though that's not really true, since DK also has an infinite, and I think Shiek has grab release tippered DACUS, right?) doesn't mean the viability of the characters are the same. If one character's counters are both very popular, then those counters really hamper Lucas' viability as a competitive character.

While I do think Lucas is Mid tier material (which I think almost everyone in this conversation has agreed with), he's still a pretty bad character from a competitive standpoint because all of his tools are outclassed by the tools of half of the rest of the cast, at least. And the ones that best outclass him are some of the most common characters being played. ._.

 

[Esotera]

Both Snake and Marth are played more than Pikachu and Wario, though... right? So just because the number of hard counters are the same (even though that's not really true, since DK also has an infinite, and I think Shiek has grab release tippered DACUS, right?) doesn't mean the viability of the characters are the same. If one character's counters are both very popular, then those counters really hamper Lucas' viability as a competitive character.

While I do think Lucas is Mid tier material (which I think almost everyone in this conversation has agreed with), he's still a pretty bad character from a competitive standpoint because all of his tools are outclassed by the tools of half of the rest of the cast, at least. And the ones that best outclass him are some of the most common characters being played. ._.

Yeah, it's pretty unfortunate. And yes, it doesn't even have to be DACUS lol, hypen usmash works well too. And Dash attack. Like, half the cast has GR true combos on Lucas. I agree with your sentiment about Marth and Snake. Mekos does well against high level marths, though. I think Mekos just wants to get his mid-tier recognition with his character. Also, if everyone thinks Lucas is mid tier material (and who hasn't said that?), why shouldn't he be there? If anything just tack him on the end.

@Esam I think what Mekos is saying that, since he has progressed farther than other Lucas players, then he is the MU defining player... Makes since to me, I haven't really seen anyone play like Mekos plays. You should prolly calm down and like, I dunno, have breakfast or something.

 

[Berserker Swordsman]

Dang, lots of people implicitly putting me on blast in here. Looks like this summer's hyperbolic time chamber will be necessary.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dang, lots of people implicitly putting me on blast in here. Looks like this summer's hyperbolic time chamber will be necessary.

GET WRECKED

I hear you were really turning heads at APEX, though. Good stuff.

Also, if everyone thinks Lucas is mid tier material (and who hasn't said that?), why shouldn't he be there? If anything just tack him on the end.

Because the data suggests that he shouldn't be there. The gap is significant enough to put him at the top of G tier and not the bottom of F tier. Lucas players just need to step it up to make the mid-tier claim undeniable.

 

[Jimmy?]

@Esam I think what Mekos is saying that, since he has progressed farther than other Lucas players, then he is the MU defining player... Makes since to me, I haven't really seen anyone play like Mekos plays. You should prolly calm down and like, I dunno, have breakfast or something.

Boldfaced the problematic part of that....

If no one plays like him, then that means he's an outlier. It doesn't mean Lucas doesn't rightfully deserve a higher spot on the list, but it does mean that one can't truly make that judgment call to say that he should move up a reasonable amount if there's only one person making those results.

If Character X placed first at a national competition, but Character Y placed second through tenth, who's the better character? The results of one person don't speak for themselves, there must be a number of people performing on similar levels with a good deal of consistency for high-level wins to mean anything more than a difference in player skill or a fluke or something.

 

[Esotera]

Boldfaced the problematic part of that....

If no one plays like him, then that means he's an outlier. It doesn't mean Lucas doesn't rightfully deserve a higher spot on the list, but it does mean that one can't truly make that judgment call to say that he should move up a reasonable amount if there's only one person making those results.

If Character X placed first at a national competition, but Character Y placed second through tenth, who's the better character? The results of one person don't speak for themselves, there must be a number of people performing on similar levels with a good deal of consistency for high-level wins to mean anything more than a difference in player skill or a fluke or something.

Mmm, good points by you and Reflex. Looks like all of us Lucas mains need to get on Mekos' level hahaha. He'll be there next list, we'll do it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Because the data suggests that he shouldn't be there. The gap is significant enough to put him at the top of G tier and not the bottom of F tier. Lucas players just need to step it up to make the mid-tier claim undeniable.

To be fair, though...

It is the opinion of the BBR that while Pokémon Trainer has the tools to keep himself from dropping back to Low Tier, he rarely performs well in tournaments outside of Reflex. It seems to us that Reflex is a massive outlier in terms of results for his character, which data seems to support. Reflex has several times the number of placings of the second best Pokémon Trainer and is close to being the character's metagame on his own. Because of this, Pokemon Trainer rounds off the bottom of the mid tier characters.

...

 

[Esotera]

LOL DOUBLE STANDARDS??

Well, I can still see why because 1) you've been around longer and 2) Mekos mains doubles. But thanks for bringing that up. Definitely something that should be looked at.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think the biggest thing is that in v4, PT was already comfortably in mid-tier; the character had already proven himself, and my presence was enough to show that the judgment still had merit. In v5, PT didn't have anything to prove, whereas Lucas' low-tier standards have reached a point of contention just now, so he has to make the extra push that PT had to for v4.

 

[Lukingordex]

@Esotera: I was looking for a Lucas avatar and I found your avatar on google.

@Thread: Pokemon trainer is good at the Squirtle part.
But Ivysaur and Charizard are really not that good,alot of characters can abuse of these 2...

I think this is why pokemon trainer is not very high on the tier...

 

[Jimmy?]

Ivysaur and Charizard still have uses.

Like, you can switch to Ivysaur before you die so you don't have to actually use him.

It's sad, because I like Ivysaur the most. :C

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A lot of characters can abuse Squirtle, too. That doesn't mean that they can't abuse other people back, though. Ivysaur is still misunderstood by a great number of people, and no one uses Squirtle's ATs to the fullest. I'm just really smart about spacing.

 

[Esotera]

Oh, I didn't even look at the previous lists... What you say makes total sense. It's obvious that Lucas players have to prove to the community what Lucas can do, that's all there is to say about it I think. Hyperbolic Time Chambers... Also sorry for off topic but I don't know where to post this (can't find a SoCal social thread)... but it's likely that I'll be in Los Angeles this summer... Who is out there to play with? I want to HBTC, too...

 

[Luxord]

First of all, beating Ike head to head doesn't mean that Lucas is a better character than Ike, at all. Ditto Luigi. All that means is that Lucas wins the MU. Secondly, you cite your win vs Ryo. How many times did you beat him? Were they close? Does Ryo have extensive MU exp vs Lucas (you said you do have exp vs high level Ike play)? Etc etc. There's a lot more that goes into a MU than singular events that happen.

While it's great and all that you do well in locals and that you managed to beat Ryo at Apex, but you also said that you don't do as well in nationals due to running into a "high level Snake." If a character as common as Snake is enough to cause problems for Lucas while Ike has a manageable time in an actual important MU (read: not the head-to-head vs Lucas), then it's more supportive of the idea that Ike is a better character.

Going on to your opinion of MUs and your win/loss records vs characters:
Once again MU (in)experience has to be considered as a factor. You said that you beat a lot of ROB's except for Stingers with whom you go back and forth in wins and losses. This seems to imply that you beat the other ROBs due in part for them not being well versed in the MU while Stingers, who is after playing you frequently, does significantly better. This doesn't mean that Lucas beats ROB at all, it doesn't mean they go even. All it means is that you beat people that lacked exp in a MU and go even with someone with exp. All the while, the person you go even with, while a great player and an amazing ROB, still isn't the best ROB. Same thing applies to IC.

For reals? MU Inexperience as your argument?

MU inexperience is not an excuse for anything after the game has been out for, what, four years or something? Come on.

To my knowledge we're talking about a top level here correct CJ? If so how in the world can you cite matchup experience or lack thereof as your reasoning. Unless you want to claim that Stingers, Ryo, and the other R.O.B.s Mekos played are NOT top level then this can't really count as a reason. I don't wanna beat a dead horse but like Mekos quotes from the MU Chart, it was created for the highest level play. And unless you think Stingers and Ryo aren't high level you have to assume they have matchup knowledge for every character.

Not saying Mekos is right about every point he's making, but your countering his logic incorrectly by stating MU inexperience. Just cite the data, that way there is literally no way Mekos can argue against you. The data is on your side (as Esam showed in his giant post).

Kinda hard to take you seriously when you are trying to claim Lucas is better than Ike...and then you use Berserker Swordsmen as "proof". Not to be hard on the guy, but he's hardly top level Ike material. I'm honestly not sure if he qualifies for high level even.

BS is the 5th best Ike out of NA, Mexico, and Canada...but you're right, he's not really "high level." I forgot, what are your requirements to be high level Nidtendofreak (master of the Brawl metagame and best judge of skill)?

 

[Lukingordex]

When you uses pokemon trainer,you are forced to change the pokemons sometimes...

This is sad...

 

[Mekos]

I get what yer saying Esam but yer still def wrong when u say I havn't upgraded the lucas metagame. That is a shot fired.

The two ATs I've created...snaking for one allows for me to space like never before. Before I would see no options available but the snaking has allowed for new options to be opened. One of the reasons I can compete against top level. That's like saying wavedashing didn't enhance the melee metagame.

And before u say anything about a player just has to get used to it and not be scared of it. It's not about scaring the opponent. Again its for spacing. That small spacing difference can be the difference between not getting grabbed or getting infinited.

I said i was done commenting. Yet people still want to talk about it. Some of you are going off of soley data. And some have stated its a select few people's opinion.

Well many agree in here he doesn't belong in low tier. All I ask is that the committee follows their hearts...and do what they feel is right. Free lucas from the bottom tier jail!!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also sorry for off topic but I don't know where to post this... but it's likely that I'll be in LA this summer... Who is out there to play with I want to HBTC, too...

There are tournaments in Mobile, AL every now and again. I tend to drive out to those, and you could probably set some sort of Smashfest up, too.

Either way, check the LA and AL social threads--

http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=211

When you uses pokemon trainer,you are forced to change the pokemons sometimes...

This is sad...

That's not so bad. The real trouble is the fact that PT's Pokèmon get tired over time, and in a game as campy as Brawl, it makes KOing quite difficult at times.

 

[Esotera]

Haha woops, I already live in Baton Rouge, LOL. I edited my post to say Los Angeles now, sorry about that and sorry for off-topic.

In other news, I wish there was more/better PT representation too.

 

[Mekos]

Well I'm done. Again I only went so hard cuz I made a promise...and I failed...just like Naruto didn't bring Sasuke back!!

But I won't give up...untl the next tier list.


Gnes the fire nation is dead. The last avatar helped build the republic. I'm just a pk firebender jk jk haha love u man!

 

[Esotera]

Well I'm done. Again I only went so hard cuz I made a promise...and I failed...just like Naruto didn't bring Sasuke back!!

But I won't give up

Meh it's not a one man job, as clearly portrayed in this thread so far. We've all got to step it up. Come help me get conversations rolling on the Lucas boards again... people there are terrible about actually talking about the game, rather than complaining haha

 

[Mew2King]

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In other news, I wish there was more/better PT representation too.

He's a very difficult character to play. You have to be able to understand three times the moves, matchups, etc., as well as being able to switch up playstyles and the like constantly, due to the forced switch on KO. There's also the trouble of fatigue, which is easily abusable by opponents and takes some thought to keep up with and mitigate the faults.

I play with the two characters who constantly have to watch the timer, hah.

Meh it's not a one man job, as clearly portrayed in this thread so far. We've all got to step it up. Come help me get conversations rolling on the Lucas boards again... people there are terrible about actually talking about the game, rather than complaining haha

I agree. That's how it gonna happen. It's much more realistic in a group effort, and everyone benefits that way. It can only help.

 

[Esotera]

He's a very difficult character to play. You have to be able to understand three times the moves, matchups, etc., as well as being able to switch up playstyles and the like constantly, due to the forced switch on KO. There's also the trouble of fatigue, which is easily abusable by opponents and takes some thought to keep up with and mitigate the faults.

I play with the two characters who constantly have to watch the timer, hah.

You should come to LA soon. I would love to see Jnig vs Reflex haha. I heard you used to come here a bit. Should at the very least come to TASOL. Props for PT, like I said it's hard for metas to get developed. If only mk was not so good then others could be developed

 

[NickRiddle]

Just like Naruto didn't bring Sasuke back...
Oh boy...

 

[Seagull Joe]

Haha it's this **** that bugs me about the community. We have just a few active Lucas that are high and top tier players (Mekos, FAE, Pink Fresh, Nasty). And yes, every character has a top 5 list in the "Top 5" thread.

Pink Fresh never plays. Nasty is mid level. Only high level is Mekos and maybe FAE.

@People claiming that top 5 list as evidence: Not everyone knows certain matchups, especially for a character as rare as in tourneys. And not everyone on those lists are high or even top level players. Look at the list. It has me, Kain, Mcpeepants, Shiro, and Choice. Kain is top level. I am high level. Choice was high level, but he is inactive. Shiro and Mcpp are mid level, but they have good wins and do well in their regions.

 

[Eddie G]

Peach vs MK is like a game of cat and mouse...

Reminds me so much of this. xD

 

[Seagull Joe]

I get what yer saying Esam but yer still def wrong when u say I havn't upgraded the lucas metagame. That is a shot fired.

The two ATs I've created...snaking for one allows for me to space like never before. Before I would see no options available but the snaking has allowed for new options to be opened. One of the reasons I can compete against top level. That's like saying wavedashing didn't enhance the melee metagame.

And before u say anything about a player just has to get used to it and not be scared of it. It's not about scaring the opponent. Again its for spacing. That small spacing difference can be the difference between not getting grabbed or getting infinited.

I said i was done commenting. Yet people still want to talk about it. Some of you are going off of soley data. And some have stated its a select few people's opinion.

Well many agree in here he doesn't belong in low tier. All I ask is that the committee follows their hearts...and do what they feel is right. Free lucas from the bottom tier jail!!

That is not an AT...That's just a bait. Otherwise Bair wall is now an AT.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That is not an AT...That's just a bait. Otherwise Bair wall is now an AT.

I think what he's saying is that Lucas's body shifts forward suddenly, allowing him to move forward slightly before right before landing, which changes spacing and positioning after the landing.

Still seems negligible to me, but, I don't play the character, so...

 

[Eddie G]

I use bair when ledgehopping with Peach to both evade and land laglessly by the edge if I'm trying to recover in a more defensive manner.

NEW AT

 

[clowsui]

Too bad that option just loses to wait lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I use bair when ledgehopping with Peach to both evade and land laglessly by the edge if I'm trying to recover in a more defensive manner.

NEW AT

I think that tends to be the general feeling. Using a move to change spacing or positioning doesn't really count as an outright AT. That's just expanding the options you already have.

 

[Esotera]

The zair also removes all landing lag. Basically gaining 2 frames on everything.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

BS is the 5th best Ike out of NA, Mexico, and Canada...but you're right, he's not really "high level." I forgot, what are your requirements to be high level Nidtendofreak (master of the Brawl metagame and best judge of skill)?

We don't exactly have the largest list of mains who are active to go through. The top 5 there is the majority of our NA mains that play on a regular basis. I said that I "wasn't sure". That means I don't know for sure if he is or isn't. I know for sure he's a whole lot better than me, but that doesn't exactly take much, I was the worst Ike in Texas until my last year there.

Why are those such hard concepts for people like you to understand? We're in the lower half of mid tier, we don't have the numbers like MK for mains and I clearly stated that I wasn't sure. Perhaps you should reread what you are bolding before you type? Particularly if you're going to take that kind of silly tone like you did at the end: it makes you look kinda clueless.

 

[Dabuz]

Lucas is pretty good

Spoiler

in Project M

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The zair also removes all landing lag. Basically gaining 2 frames on everything.

Literally all of it? Does it work that way for Link/Toon Link, as well? Ivysaur/Olimar Up-B?

 

[Esotera]

I'm not sure about other zair's. I don't know why or how I know this, but it's really easy to tell when playing... Just hop and buffer a fsmash and then do the same thing with but press zair a bit before you land. It's faster. Idk why.