stingers
Smash Obsessed
fh uair to fsmash o.O the best I can ever get is fh uair to nair right before I hit the ground lol. how strict does your timing have to be to fall and be able to land an fsmash like that...
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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
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DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Not strict at all if you start your Uair early enough to autocancel it...just make sure to do the super fast fall at the peak of the jump.
Hell the Uair isn't even necessary...most of the time I'll just full hop at the opponent and they'll air dodge anyways, because they don't want to get hit by Uair. So just fast fall and Fsmash them as they land.
Hell the Uair isn't even necessary...most of the time I'll just full hop at the opponent and they'll air dodge anyways, because they don't want to get hit by Uair. So just fast fall and Fsmash them as they land.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Well, he said you can "super fast fall" and the uair will AC, so I don't believe the timing should be that strict. He even said it's pretty easy to do.
Well, you're better than Vermanubis so what do you think about this post that he just put up on the DDD boards? He once agreed with your statement about Ganon:DDD being a -4 but then...Lots of misinformation about Ganon going on here...
First of all, Ganon vs DDD is -4 IMO, not only because of the CG, but because DDD can grab release Ganon off the edge after the CG, and all he has to do is Bair Ganon once and Ganon will die at any %. In other words, DDD has about a 50% chance to kill Ganon every time he lands a CG, if he grab releases at the end and guesses right on the Bair. Dumb*** matchup lol.
I was gonna say--Ganon has multiple options for dealing with obvious use of DK's Down-B, and DK can't safely land for the life of him. I don't see why people think the matchup is bad, other than stereotyping Ganon as a worthless character.
DLA The second frametrap example you listed is a read not a frame trap. No one ever said Ganon can't punish with reads.
Also, when I said he can't frametrap, I meant defensively. I knew about airdodge trapping with uair, but my initial point was that one of the reasons he's easier to grab than other chars is because he has poor frame data for defensive options.
Also, when I said he can't frametrap, I meant defensively. I knew about airdodge trapping with uair, but my initial point was that one of the reasons he's easier to grab than other chars is because he has poor frame data for defensive options.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
There's a key word there, students, which I've bolded above.
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
I disagree with Verm on several accounts... Dair isn't easy to land against DDD, but it is easier to land than most of our other moves.
As far as aerudo, it is a great mixup, but it will never be a reliable tool in the matchup mainly because of DDD's back roll and his ridiculous spot dodge. It sounds like Vex was letting himself get aerudo'd way too much...not to mention that he clearly didn't know that he should be grab releasing Ganon after the CG and going for the edgeguard (or maybe he did but he just didn't want to be a gaylord).
I'd put the MU at -3 as well if it wasn't for the grab release thing...but since DDD should have a roughly 50% chance to kill Ganon every time he gets a CG (since DDD has 2 choices--Bair high or Bair low), that puts the MU at -4 easily.
Can't you just SDI the B-Air(s) up and toward him to be able to recover?
DLA
"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Yes at lower %s, but only if he Bairs you high. If he bairs you low then sDI really won't help too much, at least in my experience. Not to mention he can always follow up with more Bairs. sDI will definitely improve your chances, but honestly I stopped playing this MU a while ago so I haven't gotten to test it much. Not a lot of DDDs in my region anyways.
Edit: also why is Lucas still low tier? That character is dumb
bubbaking
Smash Hero
You make it sound easy..... (T_T)
No idea. It doesn't make sense to me either...Edit: also why is Lucas still low tier? That character is dumb
I mean, if you're getting chaingrabbed, you just have to slide the stick from up to forward to up repeatedly while slamming a Jump button on the release. There's no real timing involved.
Yeah, it's frustrating to have to take multiple B-Airs to the face, but, I wouldn't call the input itself difficult.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Oh I see. I was always under the impression that SDI required use of the C-stick as well.
Nope. Actually, outside of against Falco's D-Air spike, I never use the C-Stick. It's a lot easier than that. That's why I made that thread about SDI'ing single-hit attacks recently.
Such a bold statement!
He did know about it, but I timed my recoveries. I don't think he got a single BAir gimp on me. Aerudo isn't reliable in the broadest sense, but that's why you use it sporadically. Vex wasn't being stupid, I was just able to manipulate his preemptive spotdodging in response to expected Aerudos and either DAir or Aerudo. The availability to do that automatically puts him at -3 in light of characters with advantages like ICs, MK and Falco who can't even be approached, I think. That's how I find labeling D3 to be easy: by virtue of contrast to monsters like them.I disagree with Verm on several accounts... Dair isn't easy to land against DDD, but it is easier to land than most of our other moves.
As far as aerudo, it is a great mixup, but it will never be a reliable tool in the matchup mainly because of DDD's back roll and his ridiculous spot dodge. It sounds like Vex was letting himself get aerudo'd way too much...not to mention that he clearly didn't know that he should be grab releasing Ganon after the CG and going for the edgeguard (or maybe he did but he just didn't want to be a gaylord).
I'd put the MU at -3 as well if it wasn't for the grab release thing...but since DDD should have a roughly 50% chance to kill Ganon every time he gets a CG (since DDD has 2 choices--Bair high or Bair low), that puts the MU at -4 easily.
Cassio
Smash Master
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If Borderline Tier is considered more high than mid, and isn't allowed in mid tier tournaments, then the ONLY reason Sonics have to lose those events would be ROB.
And such a concept is laughable.
tho
Neon!
Smash Lord
If DK hits ganon’s shield with a well -spaced dtilt, ganon’s only safe option is to roll away. If he continues to shield we can dtilt again, if he tries to side-b we can react with bair or even spot dodge-9wind which kills at 60.
Ganon can’t compete with our ground or aerial game. DK’s air speed (7th fastest) combined with his bair give him a far superior aerial game. If Dk hits ganon’s shield with a rising bair and then retreats ganon has no way of punishing. Considering DK’s faster ground and aerial speed this is easy to pull off and can be mixed-up in many different ways. For example after the initial rising bair on shield DK can: cover his retreat by bairing again before he hits the ground, drift towards ganon and side-b or drift towards and behind ganon while airdodging and then grab.
Ganon can edgeguard decently with reverse uair but his gimping game/recovery is inferior to DK’s. DK can stall with side-b, reverse charge his punch to defend with bair while recovering and his up-b can be stalled for a good amount of time. If ganon commits to edgeguard with uair and DK reads it, he will eat 5-10% from our up-b and then be susceptible to DK edge-guarding him with bair/ weak hits from up-b.
I could see this matchup potentially being -1 for ganon if it wasn’t for our cargo hold. When DK grabs ganon near the ledge above40-50% ganon has a 50-50 chance of recovering. If DK grabs him at higher percents (90 or above) then DK will be able to drop even lower offstage before throwing ganon at which point he can cover ALL of ganon’s recovery options.
I’ve played both DLA and Verm online multiple times and twilight prince offline. Ganon’s know this matchup well since its one of their best but it’s still +2 DK.
Mekos
Smash Master
Yep except for at Xyro's tourneys in Texas. I had to go Ness!!
Okuser
Smash Ace
that's ****ed upYep except for at Xyro's tourneys in Texas. I had to go Ness!!
Lukingordex
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This match is something like -1 for Ness or even.Ness is the least of Sonic's problems.
Not much problem for Ness.
Lukingordex
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At least the player who know this MU better than the other will have the advantage...If it's not a problem for Ness, then it's less a problem for Sonic.
It's okay. Sonic is PT's only even matchup, after all.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Should actually be in Ivysaur's favor. Have you seen that *****'s side taunt?
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
i want the write ups for olimar wario pit and an explanation as to why lucario is below zss
edit:
only tx is viewing this thread atm. hype
edit:
only tx is viewing this thread atm. hype
Kinzer
Mammy
Hi there! I'm here to shatter your hopes and dreams, and possibly troll the thread.
I heard that Sonic got put below Shielda. Again.
Can we fix this, among other things?
Like still being below R.O.B. and Kirby?
Lukingordex
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Because ZSS is too good.
Wario doesn't really do anything. There are very few Wario players these days.
Hydroplane side-taunt.Down taunt.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Although Trela outplaces every ZSS main, ZSS has a much better MU chart, especially weighted. She is -1 with a lot of characters, but Lucario is -1 with as many AND has a -2 (Against MK which is terrible for the weighted MU chart). They both lose to most of top tier, but ZSS also has positive MUs on some high tiers such as ZSS, G&W, and ICs. Most of Lucario's MUs that he wins are mid-low tiers.
Also, for the individual voting I'm guessing people see more potential in ZSS than Lucario (or at least very close) due to Nick Riddle's success at the MLGs considering no Lucario has placed high within semi-recent history in a national (As in top 3-5)
ZSS has a positive on herself?
The one that spawns on the right side of Brinstar loses the matchup.
I heard Lucario has a pretty even MU with himself.
Lukingordex
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lol
But if it is a ditto match,the match will not become even automatically?
But if it is a ditto match,the match will not become even automatically?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
YES. It's SO ANNOYING
****ing lol'd.
I would be surprised if ZSS was voted above Lucario, cause she was lower than him on all the other tier lists...I think. And all of those were done by voting and nothing more...I think.
Then again, maybe it was the fact that 3 ZSS players made it to bracket at Apex that changed people's minds...or maybe everyone just saw Salem and was like 'WTF THIS CHARACTER'S SO GOOD'
Or maybe a combination of both.
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