Official BBR Tier List v7

[Yikarur]

DK is bigger, faster, and stronger too!

Spoiler

He is the first member, of the DK Crew - HUH

where is the like button for this post

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know you represent fludd and if we miss rest he can fludd us to our death during our 4 seconds of sleep?


/thread

That is the funniest thing I've heard all day.
I have to see this happen.

 

[Luco]

Why is Ike and Link low tier? i kick *** with those characters.

It's to do with specific and detailed meta game issues I think, not actually sure for either of them. Although i'm reasonably sure the thing that kicks Ike in to mid tier is tournament success and his amazing jabs (please correct me if i'm wrong here). Otherwise he might be much lower. Link is really a character that I almost never use, so I can't give you info on that one.

As several people have said before, mostly Lower mid to higher low tier characters aren't so bad, it's more of a case of a 'fatal flaw' that keeps them lower. Obviously for my main that would be the chain grab issue from a bunch of people and lack of other options against others. In the cases of low low tier chars it tends to be a couple of good moves outweighed by the bad.

I may have that mixed up but I think that's the gist of it.

 

[Mekos]

lolol good one. Super Bias Seagull Joe strikes again.

PF knowing how to fight Junebug doesn't mean anything. You theory crafters be careful about ignoring the player. I'm talking about the best of the best lucario. Trela. Trela is different than Junebug. He has created his own unique aggro playstyle.
Stop discrediting players with comments like that.

 

[Luco]

Oh, by the by, I was doing some testing the other day. I know you'll hate this grim but a fully charged Lucas Usmash can destroy a jiggz at 30% with no DI, probably 40-50% with decent DI. I just mean, you don't really want to use rest against us unless you can be sure you'll get it. :-/

With other chars, Lucas Usmash kills light-mid chars at around 35 with no DI, mids around 40-ish and heavier chars (like Samus) closer to 45 and 50. Haven't tested heavier chars but I presume them to be around 60 or 70.

 

[Mekos]

Coulda sworn fair and fsmash get bigger with aura o.o

I know right!? lol. I agree! It sure feels like lucario gets more range.

You guys know what I'm trying to say if you have faced a lucario! This guy ^ does!

Okay I went back and read people's explanations. My points are still valid. Basically the increased shield pressure pushes lucas farther back. With the auro lucas can no longer punish lucario during his cool down if the lucas is pressured. Get that?

Seagull - Lucas has a terrible approach game. Most of his moves get beat out by other characters moves. If a player is familiar with lucas then he can beat his approach most of the time. If PF is dominating you and junebug by approaching then that means you guys don't know the matchup.

Lucas is quick and his quickness creates an illusion of him having a good approach against noob/unfamiliar players. If you stay calm and focus you can beat a lucas' approach.
This is why I have never lost a lucas ditto offline or online. His quickness doesn't throw me off.

Lucas players have to fight with a "bait and punish" playstyle at high level play. The stronger your ability to read your opponent the stronger your "bait and punish" game play will be. It is impossible for a lucas to win by going hyper aggro against an opponent familiar with him and of equal or greater skill.

 

[Jimmy?]

Just want to point out:

"Don't discredit players" followed by discrediting Junebug, Seagull, and Pink Fresh.

Just sayin'.

 

[RaptorTEC]

A lot of his posts seem stupid tbh.

 

[infiniteV115]

To be fair, Mekos > PF and Trela (when he played Mekos) > Junebug and MU ratios are supposed to represent what the MU is like at top level, so..

Maybe it's 0/-1 for Lucas at high level but -3 for Lucas at top level.

 

[NickRiddle]

Maybe PF is bettet at aggro than you are.

 

[Tesh]

To be fair, Mekos > PF and Trela (when he played Mekos) > Junebug and MU ratios are supposed to represent what the MU is like at top level, so..

Maybe it's 0/-1 for Lucas at high level but -3 for Lucas at top level.

or maybe mekos doesnt know the matchup and Trela is 10x better than him so he got *****?

Trela makes people look free in Lucario's hardest matchups. He has a very unique style with his character and is also just....really good.

 

[Mekos]

Maybe...who knows. mada mada

Jimmy I didn't buddy. I just used analytical reasoning.

 

[Jimmy?]

No, you discredited the accomplishments of other players because they're not "the best" with that character.

You're just kind of being pretentious. They're not as good as you, so they must not be doing it right.

You have, as you've said before, your own way of playing Lucas. You feel it's the best way. And that's totally cool, you should play the way you think is best. But that doesn't mean you play every match up in the best way possible and that other Lucas players are just playing people who don't know match ups if they feel more optimistic about match ups than you.

You're discrediting people really callously. I don't think it's on purpose, but just because you don't intend to come off as smug and pretentious doesn't mean you're not coming off as smug and pretentious...

 

[#HBC | Joker]

lolol good one. Super Bias Seagull Joe strikes again.

PF knowing how to fight Junebug doesn't mean anything. You theory crafters be careful about ignoring the player. I'm talking about the best of the best lucario. Trela. Trela is different than Junebug. He has created his own unique aggro playstyle.
Stop discrediting players with comments like that.

The irony of this post makes my head want to explode.

 

[Seagull Joe]

lolol good one. Super Bias Seagull Joe strikes again.

PF knowing how to fight Junebug doesn't mean anything. You theory crafters be careful about ignoring the player. I'm talking about the best of the best lucario. Trela. Trela is different than Junebug. He has created his own unique aggro playstyle.
Stop discrediting players with comments like that.

You're completely discrediting other players. What the ****?

Just want to point out:

"Don't discredit players" followed by discrediting Junebug, Seagull, and Pink Fresh.

Just sayin'.

^

A lot of his posts seem stupid tbh.

"I am right. If you say I'm wrong then you're trolling or bias." <Mekos logic...

To be fair, Mekos > PF and Trela (when he played Mekos) > Junebug and MU ratios are supposed to represent what the MU is like at top level, so..

Maybe it's 0/-1 for Lucas at high level but -3 for Lucas at top level.

To be fair, when PF played Junebug they were both considered the best of their characters. It's been a year since then, but the matchup hasn't changed at all.

Maybe PF is better at aggro than you are.

Possibly.^

or maybe mekos doesnt know the matchup and Trela is 10x better than him so he got *****?

Trela makes people look free in Lucario's hardest matchups. He has a very unique style with his character and is also just....really good.

Probably.

Maybe...who knows. mada mada

Jimmy I didn't buddy. I just used analytical reasoning.

You didn't. You discredited everything I said. Just because you play the character the best doesn't mean you play every matchup the best.

No, you discredited the accomplishments of other players because they're not "the best" with that character.

You're just kind of being pretentious. They're not as good as you, so they must not be doing it right.

You have, as you've said before, your own way of playing Lucas. You feel it's the best way. And that's totally cool, you should play the way you think is best. But that doesn't mean you play every match up in the best way possible and that other Lucas players are just playing people who don't know match ups if they feel more optimistic about match ups than you.

You're discrediting people really callously. I don't think it's on purpose, but just because you don't intend to come off as smug and pretentious doesn't mean you're not coming off as smug and pretentious...

^Thisx1000.

The irony of this post makes my head want to explode.

Funny, isn't it?

 

[DEHF]

Come on Mekos, don't be like that

 

[BarDulL]

I haven't read this thread. Hell, I really just have no idea what's going on. Haven't even looked at the thread title. That being said...

I'm the best, y'all suck, stay free.

 

[PMC66]

A Mario main is trying to explain to me why my character is bad in the current Meta?

I don't main Mario... I used to though

anyway different topic Falco>Snake

 

[DMG]

Yeah snake is poop DON'T COME IN HERE GHEB TELLING US HOW HE'S SECOND BEST

 

[PMC66]

Snake will always be high tier he's just vastly overated same as Marth

 

[Blistering Speed]

I don't main Mario... I used to though

anyway different topic Falco>Snake

I believe that, given the right player to demonstrate it, Falco has the potential to be third.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How can a character whose damage output is ridiculous, never dies, and has one of the best projectiles in the game ever be considered overrated?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Not to mention Utilt

 

[PMC66]

^ Bass fisherman's complex.

In order to even hit your opponent at high or top level it requires either your opponent to screw up or the player of the fishing character to have insanely good reads.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

^ Bass fisherman's complex.

In order to even hit your opponent at high or top level it requires either your opponent to screw up or the player of the fishing character to have insanely good reads.

With snake? Ummm, no. Snake is Snake. He just uses his grenades like a bawse, goes balls deep on trading hits all day, and outlives his opponent due to his heavy weight + early kills with utilt. Those are the basics of his play, and it only gets more and more efficient at high level play with more favorable trades and better reads.

 

[Seagull Joe]

^ Bass fisherman's complex.

In order to even hit your opponent at high or top level it requires either your opponent to screw up or the player of the fishing character to have insanely good reads.

Then all the top 's must have incredible tunnel vision. Moves are punishable. Every move is punishable to some degree. You imply that every option the opponent will be doing will be 100% safe.

's utilt has very large range and he can kill with uair/bair like at 80% on most characters? Bair's are DI'd wrong a lot because it's fast and quick upon reactions. s can also kill with nades/ftilt eventually.

is heavy and kills characters generally 50-60% earlier then the percent he'll die at.

 

[PMC66]

^ that entirely depends on the matchup, low tiers and a few mid tiers he completely wrecks but for the most part his matchups in my opinion are even he's not overpowered enough to truly be in the top 5 but he's got some very good tools which support his fishing, regardless of his linearity.

Most high tiers live ridiculously long vs snake of characters that don't lack range i mean come on rob can live to the 150s vs snake the only way u-tilt land is through player error or a good read the longer this game has been out the less viable u-tilt is getting

 

[BarDulL]

My attempts to troll the competitive scene's populace have gone unsubstantiated. :[

I more or less agree with the list. Seeing some of the things 9B can do pretty much seals the deal for me w.r.t. ICs. Not sure about Olimar, although I've seen Nietono's Olimar and it's obviously very impressive. Falco is debatable, I'm actually shocked that Falco is below Snake though considering that I don't think any Snake has beaten Larry...EVER, as well as the fact that Falco is an extremely solid character considering how many match ups he dominates because of his CG alone. I'll admit that I've had a distinct lack of participation in the competitive scene however in recent memory, so maybe Snake has somehow risen from the ashes during my absence. Still, in theory, I think Snake can stand to actually go down one more notch before a final tier list is set in stone.

Going through an entire bracket with Snake is a difficult accomplishment these days. Yes, he has great damage output, high weight, and has one of the best kill moves in the game, but he suffers significantly in high end competitive play regardless. Many characters have chain grabs or low % strings that set up for off stage shenanigans and put him in huge predicaments. Olimar/Pikachu/Falco/D3 are some of the immediately examples that come to mind, where one grab from these characters means heavy damage and potentially death depending on how each player reads each other. Other characters like MK/Marth are amazing at gimping Snake and are also popular choices in the competitive setting.

I'm aware that there are Snake mains like Fatal that are doing well with the character in their respective regions, but I've seen more higher-end success from Falco (specifically Larry, I haven't looked much into the other Falco's in recent memory.) However, it wouldn't surprise me if Snake is doing well in other various regions outside of national level events in the U.S., but this probably has more to do with the fact that Snake is much more viable at mid-level play (arguably requires a lot less skill) while Falco requires extensive knowledge of match ups w.r.t chain grabs as well as perfection of b-dacus/side-b canceling/yada yada., a.k.a. Falco has a higher skill cap. I think at the highest level of play for both characters, Falco comes out on top, so hopefully Falco will be just a little above Snake once the final tier list, if there ever is one, comes out.

More later if I feel up to it.

 

[BSP]

?

Dthrow. Nuff said.

 

[PMC66]

^ don't forget shugo, masha, sls, and abadango went all falco and placed pretty well.

That and nearly everyone in japan has a pocket falco.

 

[Mekos]

Come on Mekos, don't be like that

Larry I'm not being mean!! I'm just blunt. It's the internet and I don't take the time to sugar coat things.

Seagull is the type of player that lives in the past and will always put down other players while trying to uplift his region directly or indirectly. Look what he just said.

"To be fair, when PF played Junebug they were both considered the best of their characters. It's been a year since then, but the matchup hasn't changed at all."

Posts like that imply that characters don't evolve and is discrediting players who have chosen to continue playing and upgrade their character. With a comment like "the matchup hasn't changed at all" he is indirectly discrediting me and Trela. That means Lucas and Lucario have stayed stagnant with PF's and Junebug's playstyle. And sorry but Trela and I were both the best with our character in 2011. See there I'm just being blunt. Don't take it as me being me. I'm just stating the truth.

Who is he to say the matchup hasn't changed lol. Posts like that and most of his posts make me lol. They make no sense. He makes comments like they are facts. After my comments I say "imo".

Sorry if I'm blunt but it is my honest opinion. I'm not trying to be mean.

Some players grow and adapt. If you and junebug lost to an aggro lucas that means yall never learned how to get around it. I'll give you an example for clarity. I've defeated so many Ice climbers and the only ice-climbers I have lost to is Esam's.
The first time me and esam played ice-climbers vs lucas I had the advantage. But after Esam learned how to not get flustered by lucas' quickness when I approached, he started winning. He leaned how to break my approach. He freakin grabs me out of my attacks sometimes. SN: I've learned tho and developed some new tricks for Esam's ice-climbers. I'll test it out next time


When I play smash I have like a 6th sense and can see all the options available for my character. For example, there was once a time when I saw that it was impossible to beat top level mks who were on their game or characters that could infinite us.
I advanced lucas, created a new playstyle, and do things unique with him(some are even stage specific). Now I believe I can beat those matchups I felt were impossible in the past. If anybody knows me, they can tell you I used to just say F singles and doubles is the way to go. Anyways I can look at other lucas players and analyze their skill. Currently, by doing that I know I'm the best in the world based on what I have seen. I'm not bragging it's just the truth.

I love to learn. If there was another lucas player better I would be happy and learn from them. So I may not be able to explain what I feel about lucas and his matchups well but I still know what I'm talking about. My feelings about the lucas/lucario matchup stay the same. Matchups are based on character ability and not results. It would make since that the best players with a character can understand his ability the best. With Trela and I's current playstyle, I would still feel that the matchup is terrible even If I won the majority of the sets.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Larry I'm not being mean!! I'm just blunt. It's the internet and I don't take the time to sugar coat things.

Seagull is the type of player that lives in the past and will always put down other players while trying to uplift his region directly or indirectly. Look what he just said.

"To be fair, when PF played Junebug they were both considered the best of their characters. It's been a year since then, but the matchup hasn't changed at all."

Posts like that imply that characters don't evolve and is discrediting players who have chosen to continue playing and upgrade their character. With a comment like "the matchup hasn't changed at all" he is indirectly discrediting me and Trela. That means Lucas and Lucario have stayed stagnant with PF's and Junebug's playstyle. And sorry but Trela and I were both the best with our character in 2011. See there I'm just being blunt. Don't take it as me being me. I'm just stating the truth.

Who is he to say the matchup hasn't changed lol. Posts like that and most of his posts make me lol. They make no sense. He makes comments like they are facts. After my comments I say "imo".

Sorry if I'm blunt but it is my honest opinion. I'm not trying to be mean.

Some players grow and adapt. If you and junebug lost to an aggro lucas that means yall never learned how to get around it. I'll give you an example for clarity. I've defeated so many Ice climbers and the only ice-climbers I have lost to is Esam's.
The first time me and esam played ice-climbers vs lucas I had the advantage. But after Esam learned how to not get flustered by lucas' quickness when I approached, he started winning. He leaned how to break my approach. He freakin grabs me out of my attacks sometimes. SN: I've learned tho and developed some new tricks for Esam's ice-climbers. I'll test it out next time


When I play smash I have like a 6th sense and can see all the options available for my character. For example, there was once a time when I saw that it was impossible to beat top level mks who were on their game or characters that could infinite us.
I advanced lucas, created a new playstyle, and do things unique with him(some are even stage specific). Now I believe I can beat those matchups I felt were impossible in the past. If anybody knows me, they can tell you I used to just say F singles and doubles is the way to go. Anyways I can look at other lucas players and analyze their skill. Currently, by doing that I know I'm the best in the world based on what I have seen. I'm not bragging it's just the truth.

I love to learn. If there was another lucas player better I would be happy and learn from them. So I may not be able to explain what I feel about lucas and his matchups well but I still know what I'm talking about. My feelings about the lucas/lucario matchup stay the same. Matchups are based on character ability and not results. It would make since that the best players with a character can understand his ability the best. With Trela and I's current playstyle, I would still feel that the matchup is terrible even If I won the majority of the sets.

Ohhh now I get it. Because Junebug and Pink Fresh are bad and they clearly don't learn, their accomplishments don't count. So people who aren't the super #1 top player of their character are automatically not viable examples of MUs. Now I see what you are bluntly saying, because it wasn't apparent before.

FYI: The fact that you're being blunt, doesn't negate the fact that you're being an ***.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You're the best so by default you must play every single matchup the best. Inexperience means NOTHING.

Kain must be better then me at every other matchup for then.

People don't lol at most of my posts. Everyone in this thread responded to your ridiculous claims. They're lol'ing at you lool.

 

[Fuujin]

That means Lucas and Lucario have stayed stagnant with PF's and Junebug's playstyle. And sorry but Trela and I were both the best with our character in 2011.


When I play smash I have like a 6th sense and can see all the options available for my character. For example, there was once a time when I saw that it was impossible to beat top level mks who were on their game or characters that could infinite us.
I advanced lucas, created a new playstyle, and do things unique with him(some are even stage specific). Now I believe I can beat those matchups I felt were impossible in the past. If anybody knows me, they can tell you I used to just say F singles and doubles is the way to go. Anyways I can look at other lucas players and analyze their skill. Currently, by doing that I know I'm the best in the world based on what I have seen. I'm not bragging it's just the truth.

I love to learn. If there was another lucas player better I would be happy and learn from them. So I may not be able to explain what I feel about lucas and his matchups well but I still know what I'm talking about. My feelings about the lucas/lucario matchup stay the same.

Gurl.....

 

[BarDulL]

You're the best so by default you must play every single matchup the best. Inexperience means NOTHING.

Kain must be better then me at every other matchup for then.

That logic doesn't hold true, so I agree with your sarcasm. At one point, Mike was regarded as being better than me overall with Marth, but he wasn't as good at the Olimar match up as I was (he would lose to RB/Anuar while I could still beat them with Marth.)

However, I'm pretty sure Mekos is far and away the best Lucas main. Like, by a long shot, I don't think any other Lucas comes close, so that's also worth a mention, so his input regarding each match up involving Lucas certainly holds some weight.

 

[PMC66]

honestly i think both Joe and Mekos are biased but Joe isn't making such over the top claims everyone is biased to some degree, yes Joe is biased towards his home region. but Mekos clearly thinks he's the god of lucas and that every mu figure lucas has is his opinion.

 

[Fuujin]

You need to sit down Mekos.

It's incredibly moronic of you to say you're the sole reason Lucas's metagame is where it's at now.
The kids in Japan and FEA have been doing those Lucas tricks far longer and more effectively than you have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuHE8H4jy-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOd33ai_Cs0&feature=relmfu

You should probably go back to making incoherent, off topic post about fire bending or whatever it is you ramble on about instead of trying to make ludicrous claims.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Mekos is the best Lucas player, and nobody is disputing that. But Pink Fresh has been a consistently solid Lucas for a long time, and discrediting the possibility of him being better than Mekos at the Lucario MU is just stupid. Pink Fresh may not have results like what Mekos has under his belt, but he's certainly proven himself as a top Lucas player. And it really wasn't that long ago that people were saying "Trela who? Junebug is the best!" To discredit his past results simply because he's not very active, and doesn't even play Lucario anymore, is also completely asinine.

Mekos just doesn't know how to beat Lucario, and other people do. That is all. He didn't know the MU, and his default playstyle and attempts to adapt didn't cut it. That doesn't mean there aren't things he could have done that would've worked, it just means he got outplayed. This is fairly simple logic.

 

[DMG]

For a MU that Lucas easily loses, I don't see what the big fuss is about. Call it -2/-3 and move on.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Why does Lucas easily lose? I'm not saying Lucas wins the MU or anything, but I don't think it's crazy to think it's not that bad.