Official BBR Tier List v7

[Jimmy?]

Because Mekos lost.

obvi.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Because Mekos lost.

obvi.

I would totally be willing to buy that as logical reasoning if Mekos and Trela had played multiple sets, had more experience vs each other, and both knew the MU. But that's not the case. Mekos got bodied in a MU that he admits he doesn't have any experience in, and now he thinks he's an expert on it because "lol, we're both top players so that automatically means we played the MU optimally".

 

[DMG]

A lot of Mekos points about the MU are true though. Lingering attacks that also outrange Lucas is a hard thing to deal with. Grab release CG hurts and gives Lucario free way to unstale his moves, the only plus side really looks like killing Lucario early with Fsmash bat if you can land it, or possibly some edge guard. It doesn't look like an even or close to even MU.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

While that's true, I don't think Lucas is the only character who struggles to outrange Lucario. If he is, then Lucas would probably struggle to outrange... most other chars. Which would mean he has a lot of -2/-3 mus. Which would mean Lucas is exactly as bad as everyone has always said he is.

Maybe that's the case, I dunno. I play Lucas in friendlies and teams a lot, but I've never tried him in a tournament setting. I'm not really an expert, but I don't think he's that terrible.

 

[DMG]

It's not just outrange. A lot of characters DO outrange Lucas, it's Lucario as a whole that is different. Not a ton of characters outrange, linger like Lucario's hitboxes do, AND have grab release CG on him. Lucas has to get in on Lucario, and it's hard to deal with when the goal of trying to quickly punish from outside their spacing loses because the move stays out for so long with more range.

 

[Steam]

I'll give some quick insight into why I believe this.

Lucas' main weakness is his ability to approach well because most of his moves are beat by most of the cast moves.

His main strength is that he is quick, so once he is inside he can cause major damage and kill quickly against alot of the cast.

Now lucario shuts downs those strengths of lucas that I just mentioned. Lucas can't really approach lucario at all and even if he gets good reads, lucario has the tools to not allow lucas to safely play around with him up close.

Lucario has a chain grab on lucas and is hard for lucas to kill him. All of lucario's moves outrange lucas once he has the aura. So if a player has great spacing, mastery of lucario, and is patient a lucas should not be able to touch him easily. One of Lucas' fastest moves is his jab and this move doesn't work at all against lucario. Lucas can actually be punished by lucario if he completes his jab combo. Lucas has a great aerial mixup game and this is shut down by lucario's fair and dair. Everything shuts down lucas' tools. He is a great counter for lucas if played correctly. Fow has warned me about lucario for years and once I played Trela I finally understood what he was talking about.

Lucas is a character is best utilized(like most of the cast) when the opponent is forced to approach because the lucas has the lead. This is critical for most of his matches because unlike other characters his approach game is bad(doesn't mean his mixup game is bad. Two different things). Lucario also counters this because once down he gets stronger and again outranges lucas. Lucas has no easy tools for killing a lucario once powered up and one mistake means a chain grab across the stage.

For now I feel the matchup is a -3 or -2 with the JAPANESE RULESET. Trela shuts down my playstyle which imo is the current best lucas playstyle. As I gain more experience playing him, my opinion will of course change. I'm not perfect and don't have the matchup mastered as that was my first time playing him.

I stopped reading at the bolded part. That alone just shows you don't know much about Lucario :/

keep in mind you can SDI the first hit of DAir and avoid the second, giving you a frame advantage and an easy punish. It's annoying as hell when people do this. Also know that lucario is **** at covering diagonals. kinda like G&W but not nearly as bad. Also also remember his inside game isn't very good if you mix up how you DI his jabs. Up and away is really good. Also he's pretty slow inside, his jab is frame 6.

edit: if lucario has anything better than +1 on lucas... then he stomps on most of mid and low tier... Imagine how mario has it for example, or bowser... or like any of the lower tiers. I was always under the impression that ness/lucas did best against lucario from the lower end of the tier list.

maybe Trela made it feel impossible, but keep in mind this is a guy who regularly overcomes 4-6 matchups against top players... the guy is really a monster.

 

[Spelt]

came here to watch steam hate on mirth and i am SEVERELY DISAPPOINTED

 

[#HBC | J]

*sigh*

10sighs

 

[Luco]

*sigh*

10sighs

Hey J. <3

Yeah, I really wish I could comment on this match-up myself but I have played no good lucario's offline at all. The one good Lucario I have played has been online, the only thing I can really say about it is a really specific example. Probably already know this but it's possible to break away from his force palm before the knockback hit (and maybe avoid all damage, can't remember) if you mash the controllers perfectly. It's hard to do if you're not expecting it at all though. :-/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DMG, your attempts at trollig me / trying to be funny are pathetic. You should like join together with Orion and found a club or something.

 

[DMG]

You sure take light jabs poorly.

 

[Mekos]

A lot of Mekos points about the MU are true though. Lingering attacks that also outrange Lucas is a hard thing to deal with. Grab release CG hurts and gives Lucario free way to unstale his moves, the only plus side really looks like killing Lucario early with Fsmash bat if you can land it, or possibly some edge guard. It doesn't look like an even or close to even MU.

Yes, you are summing up what I said in a nutshell. Also, the fact that once inside we cannot easily stay there. Lucas shines when he can play around with his opponent upclose. We can't do that with lucario.

That logic doesn't hold true, so I agree with your sarcasm. At one point, Mike was regarded as being better than me overall with Marth, but he wasn't as good at the Olimar match up as I was (he would lose to RB/Anuar while I could still beat them with Marth.)

However, I'm pretty sure Mekos is far and away the best Lucas main. Like, by a long shot, I don't think any other Lucas comes close, so that's also worth a mention, so his input regarding each match up involving Lucas certainly holds some weight.

^ This is true based on what I have seen. I feel if I said this myself that would have been me being an ***. I didn't. Instead I tried to explain my reasoning.

Anyways I love to help people and just struggle explaining things in a nice way I guess

In conclusion, I'll end with an Epiphany I had about smash to help anyone that cares.
Smash is divided into three segments that we must master.

1. Mastery of the character (USA excels at this)
2. Mastery of the fundamentals of the game. Spacing, DI, defensive game, etc (Japan excels at this)
3. Mastery of the ability to analyze the match. Reading your opponent, adapting, etc. (Few excel at this)

We all gotta do better at at mastering all three parts. You will notice players that do, stand out. Like Anti and Ally for example. This is why they can play multiple characters at high level play.

I feel USA in general only focuses on mastery of the character too much and is very weak at having the ability to analyze a match.

@Steam - Nothing is impossible buddy. You just gotta learn and grow from your losses. But a matchup is a matchup tho.

Also, think about all the points I made and watch the set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOuVzoHmwOA

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

mekos you're not even like, good. stfu

 

[Steam]

I really have no idea how Lucario can destroy a character that negates his best move (aura sphere) and doesn't have super amounts of trouble killing him. Yeah Lucario outranges him, but Lucario outranges a lot of people and Lucas can do a lot inside since lucario doesn't deal with pressure very well. Just saying if you're willing to say lucas is +2 or +3 for lucario, you should be ready to argue most low tiers for similar numbers and +4 for like sonic and yoshi. Because they have lucas's problems just magnified.

 

[#HBC | J]

Lucas doesn't lose that badly to Lucario...^^"

 

[Steam]

From watching the set I didn't really see so many matchup things so much I saw that trela is insane and constantly playing out of his mind. he just kept making the right choices and had flawless execution on everything he did. Sadly Trela has now quit so QQ

 

[infiniteV115]

I wouldn't say AS is Lucario's best move. Fair and dair seem better to me.

 

[Steam]

I wouldn't say AS is Lucario's best move. Fair and dair seem better to me.

Fair maybe. it just kinda opens up everything else

Dair is way too unreliable.

 

[da K.I.D.]

When exactly did this whole trela quitting thing happen?

 

[infiniteV115]

He made a post like a week or two ago in the Lucario social and a blog on AiB

 

[PMC66]

^ yeah shame to see him go after he was placing so well.

I feel like learning Lucario some days but other characters and the fact i'm average with him always got in the way lol. xD

btw ROB needs to drop.. ALOT like bottom of mid or low tier him and DK are without doubt the worst mid tiers.

Also i'm surprised Lucario isn't considered -2 for him yet, frame advantage, aura sphere the fact Lucario can kill ROB at like 90% damage and live for Donkey's years. Why is this character still overated ok granted he dropped alot but come on guys every character in mid except for DK, Luigi,Ness,PT the latter 3 should really be low tier anyway. Heck every good ROB other than Chibo and stingers quit him, i don't count Holy he's more of a meta knight main.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because ROB actually isnt bad and he gets results.

 

[infiniteV115]

Holy attends MK banned tournies fairly often (locals in Toronto) and he only uses ROB at them

And Chibo quit ROB, or he was planning to recently

 

[PMC66]

ROB doesn't place well everywhere in the world, he does Trash in Europe and Japan, heck Ocean came from Japan everytime he got Yui he'd always go straight to loosers.

How can a character with such abysmal high tier matchups be consifered anything other than borderline low tier? he's -3ed vs Meta Knight and honestly some of his MU currently are somewhat kind, Olimar should be -2, Lucario should be -2 Fox i think is -3 but everyone disagrees so i won't argue it accross. He has no KO ability whatsoever other than frame trapping air dodges with N-air or simply lucking out. B-air is not a reliable enough KO move, his air game is extremely punishable. His ground game is alright, it's got fast moves, but all ROB really is is just poking someone with a big stick when everyone else has Rocks, swords and Anvils. his IC and Marth matchups are good but thats pretty much it, ROB only does well in places where people don't know the matchup well enough of play it incorrectly.

Oh and Chibo's quiting ROB too thats another one to add to the huge list of talented ROB's that quit the character :/

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well who below him does any better lol.

 

[PMC66]

Sonic, Shiek, Kirby, Ike, Yoshi.

All of them should be above ROB, i don't get why anyone thinks he's a good character. He isn't lol doesn't stop me using him though ^^

 

[infiniteV115]

Chibo was never really that good anyway, I don't see how him quitting ROB would really affect ROB's notable results.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lol, link me to any recent big tournament results which show any of those 5 doing better than ROB.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sonic, Shiek, Kirby, Ike, Yoshi.

All of them should be above ROB, i don't get why anyone thinks he's a good character. He isn't lol doesn't stop me using him though ^^

If anything should be on the same level as /.

Lol, link me to any recent big tournament results which show any of those 5 doing better than ROB.

^

^ yeah shame to see him go after he was placing so well.

I feel like learning Lucario some days but other characters and the fact i'm average with him always got in the way lol. xD

btw ROB needs to drop.. ALOT like bottom of mid or low tier him and DK are without doubt the worst mid tiers.

Also i'm surprised Lucario isn't considered -2 for him yet, frame advantage, aura sphere the fact Lucario can kill ROB at like 90% damage and live for Donkey's years. Why is this character still overated ok granted he dropped alot but come on guys every character in mid except for DK, Luigi,Ness,PT the latter 3 should really be low tier anyway. Heck every good ROB other than Chibo and stingers quit him, i don't count Holy he's more of a meta knight main.

vs is even. might be +1 vs actually. completely counters 's playstyle. Outranges and he can kill...

ROB doesn't place well everywhere in the world, he does Trash in Europe and Japan, heck Ocean came from Japan everytime he got Yui he'd always go straight to loosers.

How can a character with such abysmal high tier matchups be consifered anything other than borderline low tier? he's -3ed vs Meta Knight and honestly some of his MU currently are somewhat kind, Olimar should be -2, Lucario should be -2 Fox i think is -3 but everyone disagrees so i won't argue it accross. He has no KO ability whatsoever other than frame trapping air dodges with N-air or simply lucking out. B-air is not a reliable enough KO move, his air game is extremely punishable. His ground game is alright, it's got fast moves, but all ROB really is is just poking someone with a big stick when everyone else has Rocks, swords and Anvils. his IC and Marth matchups are good but thats pretty much it, ROB only does well in places where people don't know the matchup well enough of play it incorrectly.

Oh and Chibo's quiting ROB too thats another one to add to the huge list of talented ROB's that quit the character :/

is -1 with . The matchup would be closer to even then -2. is even with . He may have problems killing, but he doesn't have to approach either. And 's grab range is like s. He can generally grab a lot of the things does if he stays grounded. is -1. 's approaches aren't amazing vs . It's not like can just dair his shield and dash to usmash every stock.

's matchups with HT:
: -3
: 0 or -1
: -1 or -2
: -1
: -3
: 0 or +1
: 0
: 0 or -1
: 0 or +1
: 0
: 0
: 0
: -1

That's not a bad spread at all...

 

[Ussi]

whobo4

Ryo Ike 5th
Chibo ROB 33rd

 

[Seagull Joe]

whobo4

Ryo Ike 5th
Chibo ROB 33rd

1. That's banned.
2. Chibo isn't that good (He's gotten a lot worst then even Chibo prime whenever that was).

 

[Player-1]

diddy beats rob

 

[Ussi]

1. That's banned.
2. Chibo isn't that good (He's gotten a lot worst then even Chibo prime whenever that was).

He said link any tourney. Both Ike and ROB lose Mk -3 anyways so they both lose their worst MU

 

[da K.I.D.]

chibo has probably been spending more time on his business/tournament series/sponsorship than playing the game these days so I cant blame him.

he says hes teaching his players how to be professional. And since we all know how much babysitting Mew2King needs on a constant basis, its fair to say that thats probably taking up ALL of his time atm.

 

[Seagull Joe]

He said link any tourney. Both Ike and ROB lose Mk -3 anyways so they both lose their worst MU

Doesn't lose just as bad as to and gets **** on completely by ?

Not arguing 's validity. Just saying he isn't as good as , but I'm sure most people agree with that lol.

diddy beats rob

Lie vs Stingers. Then again...Have you lost to/beat Stingers?

 

[Player-1]

Ya that's because Lie at any MU that isn't top tier, the next NC tournament I went to I beat stingers in two sets 2-0 both times (only times I've played Stingers in tournament). ADHD Vs Ocean too lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Fine, let me rephrase it.

Link me a tournament under the standard tournament ruleset that the tier list is actually based on that also has a good rob player in attendance in which any of those 5 characters did better.

 

[infiniteV115]

's matchups with HT:
: -1

Looooooooooooooooooooooool
No. -2 at best for ROB. -3 at worst.

chibo has probably been spending more time on his business/tournament series/sponsorship than playing the game these days so I cant blame him.

he says hes teaching his players how to be professional. And since we all know how much babysitting Mew2King needs on a constant basis, its fair to say that thats probably taking up ALL of his time atm.

Nobody cares about your Chibbyjohns.

 

[Luigi player]

Fine, let me rephrase it.

Link me a tournament under the standard tournament ruleset that the tier list is actually based on that also has a good rob player in attendance in which any of those 5 characters did better.

lol youre acting like rob would cp anything other than neutrals (i mean sure he could but i really doubt any stage would change the MU enough for it to have a different ratio/whatever there)

 

[Seagull Joe]

Looooooooooooooooooooooool
No. -2 at best for ROB. -3 at worst.

Nobody cares about your Chibbyjohns.

I don't see how could +3 anyone outside of LT's. Also added to the fact that there is no way she's as bad as / for .