Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luigi player]

Can someone quote this so Gheb sees it? I'm on his ignore list I think

Link being underrate is pretty interesting; is there any specific player or strat that makes you think that? Not interested in arguing (like I said, they're all trash imo), just want to know what gives you that idea.

Ramins link so good!

 

[DMG]

Oh yeah why are you still saying flarble garble I forgot to talk about that in my god damn post earlier.

There used to be a flarble garble garble monster you know.

 

[C.J.]

Because when you first posted it I laughed. And now it's just fun to say so when I get frustrated I say it and it makes me laugh.

 

[DMG]

Go to Whobo



Make love



Garble

Gheb Zelda sucks gg


You can also use flarble garble to shrug off someone spouting off gibberish, just interrupt them

 

[da K.I.D.]

falcon is better than ganon in this game, for the same reason that falcon was better than ganon in the last game.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Falcon does suck beyond belief, and I sometimes feel his hitboxes are somehow worse than Ganondorf's, but with the sluggish movements of Dorf's moves, and the lag associated with them, Falcon beats out Ganondorf. Not to mention Falcon has several even MUs and one +1 MU (vs. Ganondorf), while Ganon's best MUs are three -1s.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Falcon has mobility and a good jab, that alone makes him better then Ganon.

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blo...forget-this-day-comments-concerning-mew2king/

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/blo...forget-this-day-comments-concerning-mew2king/

Not surprising in the least.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yeah... not surprising. But was fun reading that situation from Rapture's point of view.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I have to ask what Mew2King was thinking, bringing only $200 to Japan, even if he was allowed to money match people. It's one thing to travel to another city with $200, and it's a hell of a stretch to travel to another state, but to travel to another foreign overseas country halfway across the middle of nowhere? I have to say, nietono must have a heart of diamond-studded gold if he's continuing to put up with that. Oh, M2K, what were you thinking?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Oh, M2K, what were you thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUhOnX8qt3I

 

[Seagull Joe]

Bowser / Link
Mario
Puff
Samus
Ganon
Falcon / Zelda

Is what I think the very bottom is like. Link still underrated, Mario still overrated.

I think > based on results. Both their matchups in general are pretty horrid, but the results of Noid and Xyro hold more weight then ??? (Who uses ).

I think is below and would be tied with at the top of LT.

The fact that lacks a projectile, is a giant target, and lacks approach makes him worst then . It's harder to keep out then based on the fact that can actually string moves, while has to try really hard everytime just to get a hit in.

 

[Claire Diviner]

@PrivateJoker-Brown: I don't know if that video's messed up or not, but I couldn't help but laugh so hard.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

It's the right video.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I'd say Mario is higher than Link, only because Link's fall speed and weight makes him more susceptible to chain grabs, and combine the fact that his fall speed does no favors for his already bad recovery. Yeah, Mario's recovery is crap too, but at least he doesn't fall like a stone compared to Link.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'd say Mario is higher than Link, only because Link's fall speed and weight makes him more susceptible to chain grabs, and combine the fact that his fall speed does no favors for his already bad recovery. Yeah, Mario's recovery is crap too, but at least he doesn't fall like a stone compared to Link.

is -4 with and . is -4 with and probably ?

I don't know why the current matchup chart says is only -3 vs . I think people don't realize cg to edge is a kill everytime...

 

[Claire Diviner]

Well, I suppose Mario and Link have problems with Dedede (to put it lightly). As for Falco and Snake, it all depends on what MU is more important, and which character is more common between Falco and Snake.

I think the reason Link's MU with Dedede is -3 instead of -4 is because he does have projectiles to spam, and his Zair for spacing. I know it can sound very hard, but I think that proper spacing with Link's moves can help reduce the chances of being grabbed, turning what would otherwise be a virtually unwinnable -4 MU into a really hard -3 MU that's seldom won.

 

[Vermanubis]

Why is it that whenever people talk about Ganon actually not being the worst character in the game they always mention like Link, Zelda or Jiggs as contenders but never Captain Falcon, who is worse than all of them? Falcon for worst char plz

Sheik has never been considered a Snake counter in Japan as far as I know. The match-up has always floated between +1 and +2 Snake favor, which looks pretty accurate.

As I always say in regard to Ganon, he's very strange when compared to the rest of the LT cast. I think he's more capable than a lot of the LTs, but also a lot more stymied by his preponderance of weaknesses. His strengths are at the extreme end of one spectrum, and his weaknesses inversely proportional, being at the very bottom of the other end.

I will always maintain that he is the worst simply by virtue of the fact that he literally cannot function without taking enormous risks. If those risks are successful, he looks far better than he is, but if they don't, that's when he's the worst. It's the same reason I feel that Seth shouldn't be as high as he is in SSFIV: character strength shouldn't be predicated on how well the character does when they take huge risks. Though, obviously, Seth isn't entirely comparable, since he has a variety of strengths aside from his risky mix-up game. This is why you'll never see conservative Ganons doing well--he <needs> to take risks if the player knows not to rush him down.

As for Falcon, I can't justify someone with decent KO power and fantastic speed being worst or even second worst. Mobility is too important in this game, and he has it. Link, Jiggs and Ganon are the worst, in that order, in my opinion.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I feel smarter every time I read a Vermanubis post. Can I subscribe to everywhere he posts?

I'm curious as to why you think Zelda is better than those three.

 

[Vermanubis]

LOL

Zelda, to me, is just terribly under-repped. She's like the LT version of ZSS back in '09, when all the theory in the world suggested that ZSS was just not very good. The plainest I can put it is that she has strong defensive options, good KO options, a way to discourage most kinds of camping (exception being Falco, mostly) for fear of unfavorable trades and overall a lot of moves to get her out of bad situations. She has crippling weaknesses, yeah, but when contrasted to those three, I think she has comparable strengths, but slightly less burdened by weaknesses.

Jiggles and Link can't kill worth a doodoo, and really don't have any defensive options or ways to countercamp. Link can countercamp pitifully, but that's about it.

 

[Mr-R]

Glad after 4 years people are finally realizing link is underrated

 

[Claire Diviner]

Glad after 4 years people are finally realizing link is underrated

Well, he certainly can't be overrated at this current time.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I don't know why the current matchup chart says is only -3 vs . I think people don't realize cg to edge is a kill everytime...

How is it a kill every time? Not being facetious, just curious how you came to that conclusion.

LOL

Zelda, to me, is just terribly under-repped. She's like the LT version of ZSS back in '09, when all the theory in the world suggested that ZSS was just not very good. The plainest I can put it is that she has strong defensive options, good KO options, a way to discourage most kinds of camping (exception being Falco, mostly) for fear of unfavorable trades and overall a lot of moves to get her out of bad situations. She has crippling weaknesses, yeah, but when contrasted to those three, I think she has comparable strengths, but slightly less burdened by weaknesses.

Jiggles and Link can't kill worth a doodoo, and really don't have any defensive options or ways to countercamp. Link can countercamp pitifully, but that's about it.

I agree about Jiggs and Zelda, disagree about Link. Dair and F-smash kill rather well, and u-tilt is pretty good in a pinch.

Glad after 4 years people are finally realizing link is underrated

Well, he certainly can't be overrated at this current time.

Lol. Yeah. He isn't great, but he is WAY better than most would ever give him credit for.

On a side note, this is not '09. Link HAS a recovery that works rather well, and his survive-ability is bonkers (second behind DeDeDe) as long as he makes it a point to DI up when he gets hit.

 

[Seagull Joe]

How is it a kill every time? Not being facetious, just curious how you came to that conclusion.


I agree about Jiggs and Zelda, disagree about Link. Dair and F-smash kill rather well, and u-tilt is pretty good in a pinch.


Lol. Yeah. He isn't great, but he is WAY better than most would ever give him credit for.

On a side note, this is not '09. Link HAS a recovery that works rather well, and his survive-ability is bonkers (second behind DeDeDe) as long as he makes it a point to DI up when he gets hit.

Cg to edge>Release>He can't make it back.

 

[Jrugs]

damn link

 

[thrillagorilla]

Cg to edge>Release>He can't make it back.

Lol, what? Link can make it back to the ledge with a double jump, let alone z-air/up-b. Did you even test this?

 

[BSP]

is -4 with and . is -4 with and probably ?

While Snake is definitely an uphill battle for Mario, it's not utter destruction that warrants -4.

I'd put MK as -4 for Mario before Snake, but everyone thinks I overrate the difficulty of Mario v MK.

 

[Airslash]

to me, Mario v MK would be a -3, it's not almost unwinnable but Mario is certainly going to get his butt kicked.

 

[Doc King]

Doesn't Mario have good oos options against MK? Like his up B?

Also Dedede vs Link isn't +4 D3. Link has good camping tools against Dedede and can survive well and poke with zair well. I actually think it's +2 Dedede.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DDD is Mario's only -4 MU. MK, Snake and arguably Falco are -3.

Whenever people talk about why Link is such a bad character arguments are almost exclusively restricted to his bad recovery. However, as we've seen in Olimar's case a bad recovery doesn't necessarily make a character bad. Link actually has a pretty good moveset [all his aerials are decent, good jab, good fsmash & dsmash], damage output that is not to be underestimated, some decent KO set-ups and powerful finishers. There's no way he's bottom 3.

 

[Z'zgashi]

While Snake is definitely an uphill battle for Mario, it's not utter destruction that warrants -4.

I'd put MK as -4 for Mario before Snake, but everyone thinks I overrate the difficulty of Mario v MK.

You do, its a solid -3. It's not unwinnable just really slow and difficult.

And Snake is def not -4, its a solid -3 as well. And MK is imo his second worst MU, but Snake isnt far behind.

 

[infiniteV115]

Olimar's bad recovery is somewhat mitigated by his whistle, but I definitely agree that Link isn't bottom 3.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Imo Ganon/Zelda/Jiggs are solid bottom 3 with Link/Falcon pretty close for 4/5.

 

[Doc King]

Olimar's recovery is not that bad because of super armor whistle.

Recovery doesn't really matter too much as it did in SSB64 and Melee. Recovery is more about what's the safest. Like even though Luigi, Snake, and Dedede have long recovery, so it's very slow and punishable, while Falco, Wolf, and Fox have short distance but they can always make it back with their side b.

 

[-LzR-]

[all his aerials are decent, good jab, good fsmash & dsmash], damage output that is not to be underestimated, some decent KO set-ups and powerful finishers. There's no way he's bottom 3.

And pretty much none of that is true. His aerials that aren't incredibly laggy are weak and the ones that can kill are among the laggiest aerials in the game. Just look at his uair, it's ****.
His jab is not good. It comes out like at frame 7? Many characters have faster smashes than that. It cannot be utilized as jabs are usually used. His KO set-ups are mostly gimmicks like boomerang wind bull**** that never works or bomb into something that is kinda decent.
And powerful finishers? Are you kidding me? His only decent killmove is dair. He belongs to bottom 3 with Ganon and Zelda.

/waiting for Link mains to argue how good their boomerang is

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is a demonstrable fact that people who think Puff is bottom 3 have yet to play against or see a good Jigglypuff.

 

[tarextherex]

Link is probably the most underrated character in the game since for him to be a low tier character rather than a bottom one, you'll need to spend quite a bit of time in him, and no one thinks it's worth it since it's more work than he's worth for. His tourney rep is still better than most low tiers atm, so above everyone except maybe Mario would actually be plausible, really.

As for MUs, I think Falco and DDD are -3, not -4. I remember an old AIB Verm blog about how he described dealing -4 MUs as Ganon, that involved stuff like optimal use of platforms vs Falco. I can't really describe it further atm but basically when the theory behing a matchup goes this far, the MU is -4. That's why I think Ganon with a couple of exceptions maybe, is the only character to have -4s in the game, and not Link, even if getting a CG>gimp by D3 and such is quite annoying.

 

[Doc King]

It is a demonstrable fact that people who think Puff is bottom 3 have yet to play against or see a good Jigglypuff.

Is there such a thing?

 

[C.J.]

Yes; San and Hbox

Oh, and Mink is a pretty cool guy too.