Official BBR Tier List v6

[Maharba the Mystic]

well tesh when you don't have recorded evidence, you usually have wats called a match up discussion where players from both character boards get together and discuss how they think certain tools and strategies and character traits effect a certain MU. together, you come up with what BOTH character boards AGREE to what they believe the MU ratio should be.

it's not like we made our MU numbers up, there were character players on the other side too. and yes we've had input from high level players on both sides during these discussions. why are you being so hell bent about this? damn im not even trying to be rude during all of this and yet tesh types angrily y?

 

[Tesh]

I'm not angry, lol. I just have a passionate believe that doing stuff> saying stuff. What you guys talked about isn't proof. Its theory. Matchup discussions have their own place in educating people about their options, but a bunch of people "agreeing" about how pit's wall of text goes even with snake's doesn't change what will actually happen.

Results>theory.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

if you wanna be technical then pit has positive records on snake in both america and japan for as many times as it's played. and by a lot too. obviously pit must beat snake then. wait a second.....

ill discuss this later. ima go to bed now

 

[Ralph Cecil]

You keep making it sounds like Fatal, & Bizkit never win against Koolaid...I don't really know personally, but i'd think players of their caliber would win a decent amount as well against him.

 

[Tesh]

Doesn't really sound absurd that Snake could lose to Pit. If thats what happens in practice. Top tier with very defined weaknesses can still lose to or go even with mid and even low tiers that exploit them well. Some say Yoshi beats Wario, but is Yoshi better than Sonic?

Gotta look at the big picture and results say Sonic is looking alot better in that wide shot.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just gonna say for Pit, I'm 100% sure he does better against Lucario than Sonic does.

 

[Ripple]

it bothers me that the US doesn't have a high level pit player. we've got a high player for everything else except for who? zelda?

 

[Exceladon City]

earth beat coney at apex 2010. luckay recently outplaced coney although i do not know if they played so i can't say if the MU has happened recently.

Coney went / that tournament.

Just gonna say for Pit, I'm 100% sure he does better against Lucario than Sonic does.

Shut up...

 

[Tesh]

Maybe we just don't have one that makes Pit look as good as his "matchups" say.

Also, I already went over how Lucario doesn't really matter as much. According to the BBR, you might as well pick Ganondorf to fight Lucario, so doing better than Sonic in that matchup makes your character.....above hyrule tier?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I disagree with Sonic as a -3 as of recent.

He's better at the MU than Ganon is that is for sure.

Also I get the point your stressing. Just commenting on that one point.

eanut:

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

um.... no coney played ddd against earth in apex 2010. guarenteed.

why am i still awake?

 

[Exceladon City]

um.... no coney played ddd against earth in apex 2010. guarenteed.

why am i still awake?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=310978

 

[C.J.]

What does a random local have to do with what character Coney played at apex 2010?

I'm so confused...

Also, for reference:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283374&highlight=apex


EDIT: Nvm, you were referring to Luckay outplacing Coney.
You probably shouldn't quote a post talking about Apex when responding about a recent local tourny.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ya i got confused. i guess my bad

 

[Steam]

I honestly feel like ganon is close to a -4 though... lucario has no reason to ever get hit... ever. sonic is close to a -2... I dunno if I'd call it that yet though.

and stfu tesh mai churacter iz impurtant >:I

Also pit is stupid and should be on a tier to the left of everyone else

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Loki Tier



is located to the left of current tier list

(if the mod of this thread actually edited this in i would love them in all sorts of ways with my mind body and soul)

 

[Shaya]

I considered it.

But there was a resound 'no' from the panel of experts.

 

[Kuro~]

Pit wins against Snake? I thought it was even. o-o

Def. said even.

i didn't post the wrong marth match. i wanted to show the one that most demonstrated that when they both play well, marth wins by 1.

aside from that, chuee you're amazing. couldn't have said it any better.

btw, since you mention MK, i can referance some sets of masashi vs otori where masashi wins but they are about 6-7 months old by now and even i acknowledge that american MKs are gayer

edit:
snake vs pit is even

Actually, most pits are terrible at the mk mu. And most pits haven't put in as much work in studying it and perfecting it. Compared to mk's other current -2? I def. think pit is around that in difficulty. It def. is the mu that can hold pits bk though. Winnable and pit def. has some nice points in the mu, but in quantity it really starts to matter more and more and more.

I left D3 out because he doesn't matter, along with Lucario, GnW and anyone below high tier. They just aren't as relevant to the metagame (or previously mentioned like ZSS). For that matter, Pit probably does better against Wolf and Yoshi, but who the hell cares about them!? In any case don't just say Pit does better in the matchup. I've never seen __X__, Espy or Speed even PLAY a top DDD (so rare), so unless you have a Pit beating one, why bring it up?

As for Pit vs ZSS, I KNOW there is a pit in Nick Riddle's area as Maharba already brought up. I don't know their record, but Sonics is better by far at this point.

As for ICs, I'll give that one to Pit, solo ICs is less relevant in US metagame with all the stages they suck on, but thats still very impressive even if 9B probably has a winning record there. Lain definitely isn't the only US to fall to Sonic in the past year or so.

Diddy Kong...sure Gnes beat Espy and __X__, but did some pit beat him? Or ADHD? Or Dekar? Or Jebus? Gimmie a pit beating a good Diddy Kong if you wanna bring him up. If top pits would rather pick sheik or something to deal with Diddy, then how well do you think he does in the matchup?

Espy> Jerm(top toon link in the region) at Nikefest 4 for recent results.

Pretty sure you are wrong about Nike vs Esca. But it doesn't matter anyway, because I can quote Nike arguing he isn't even a top 10 Marth. Not to mention if 9B trumps all of the sonic victories over ICs, then Mikehaze trumps all of the lesser pit wins vs lesser Marths.

@ pikachu, Espy vs ESAM at MLG (see i gave you a freebie) looking more impressive than what pit has going. ESAM also lost to KIDgoggles.

Top Sonics overall have a decent record vs him. __X__ lost to Annuar (though i heard he uses many characters so maybe it wasnt olimar), Espy has his wins over RB, Denti etc. as well as his losses. Don't tell me Earth coming from japan with the best Olimar exp the world has to offer beating Annuar puts Pit noticably ahead.

well what can I say here. Can't really compare Espy losing to Ally and Razer with Pits beating Fatal and Bizkit. Lets see a pit do remotely well against Ally then.

i lol'd @ "mks dont know the matchup", because I'm sure all the top MKs have been studying how to power shield arrows and avoid getting mirror shield gimped. You can't play that card in a discussion about one mid tier being better than another. In a metagame where MK is soooooooo important, you can't just brush off the fact that Sonics have done WAY better. Top US pits either fail or use a co-main/secondary for MK because Pit just get beat down.


Stop hiding behind "oh but that didn't happen cuz no high level pits". If these matchups haven't occured at a high level, then why do you guys think its good for Pit? How do you know Nick Riddle/shlike/dakpo/ybm wouldn't stomp esca/kira/ravyn etc. if it never happened? This is exactly my point, all you have is some theory typed up and designed to support your agenda.


@ maharba, __X__ winning a game vs M2K on Rainbow cruise >>>>>>>>>>>> Masashi beating an MK on FD/SV/BF. M2K is better and on a better MK stage.

_X_ and sonics def. have more results vs mk. No doubt.

Snake: There are plenty more examples like Ravyn vs ally, Prince ramen vs hrnut, Koolaid vs bizkit/fatal, etc. If you try to call this anything other than even your ****ing ********.

Diddy: I can easily tell you plenty of things about the mu. But you'd just dismiss it with something random like "u can't use exp. from anyone but adhd/gnes".

Didn't __X__ take M2K to last game in some Las Vegas tourney? I thought I saw something on AiB about it. o-o

Recently? Or u talkin bout dat first hype tourney where there was like one ****ty quality recording either way...sonic might do better vs mk "currently".

did you not see i acknowledged that japanese mks don't compare to US mks?

earth has taken multiple games off brood and masashi has beaten brood and nietono. and also he beat annuar

back in the day koolaid also took a game off of ally.

that MU doesn't happen in bracket ever at top level. at least i've never heard/seen it.

earth beat coney at apex 2010. luckay recently outplaced coney although i do not know if they played so i can't say if the MU has happened recently.

hasn't happened in bracket to my knowledge.

pit's have done good against falco and falco's have done good against pit. although i haven't heard of dehf playing a pit so i can't referance that.

doesn't happen really, so ya can't really say.

sorry can't confirm this outside of like leaf and esca which doesn't count since they are laughably old

im providing you with what i can, if you want to know about other MUs ill see wat i can do

This is why i argue it's not worth it. When you have as little of a pool of evidence as pit, arguing with someone who dismisses nearly everything due to a character having MORE players and MORE TOP LEVEL players is just annoying.

Personally idgaf if pit is F tier. D Tier. E tier. Or ****ing S tier. Pit>sonic? Dunno.Sonic>pit dunno. But don't ****ing sit here and spew **** about mu u know NOTHING about.

I ask you again Maharba and any other Pit supporter willing to answer, if these matchups "haven't happened at a high level", then why do you say Pit does well? Couldn't I just say Pit loses to Falcon 20:80 or -5 and that there are no high level Falcons around to prove it?

Pretty sure back in the day Trent also took games off of Ally. No one cares about back in the day, those posts belong in Tier List v 3 thread.

Uh no you couldn't. Cuz that's obviously not respecting each characters tools. Haven't happened at a high level...when we only got mid/mid-high level players. But at the same time we have those mid/mid-high level players w/evidence against players of= or slightly better skill. E.g. me vs Fl diddy's.

well tesh when you don't have recorded evidence, you usually have wats called a match up discussion where players from both character boards get together and discuss how they think certain tools and strategies and character traits effect a certain MU. together, you come up with what BOTH character boards AGREE to what they believe the MU ratio should be.

it's not like we made our MU numbers up, there were character players on the other side too. and yes we've had input from high level players on both sides during these discussions. why are you being so hell bent about this? damn im not even trying to be rude during all of this and yet tesh types angrily y?

I lol'd at this. Most of our mu aren't just theory though. Between you,me,luckay,ptzr,fyre we have exp. vs most characters. Some more than others.

I'm not angry, lol. I just have a passionate believe that doing stuff> saying stuff. What you guys talked about isn't proof. Its theory. Matchup discussions have their own place in educating people about their options, but a bunch of people "agreeing" about how pit's wall of text goes even with snake's doesn't change what will actually happen.

Results>theory.

But THE only results we actually have and are able to give you dismiss so easily and stubbornly. I'm pretty sure _X_ and Espy are better than every pit besides koolaid and maybe kira.

if you wanna be technical then pit has positive records on snake in both america and japan for as many times as it's played. and by a lot too. obviously pit must beat snake then. wait a second.....

ill discuss this later. ima go to bed now

Pretty much...

You keep making it sounds like Fatal, & Bizkit never win against Koolaid...I don't really know personally, but i'd think players of their caliber would win a decent amount as well against him.

Actually he has a pretty sound record from what i've heard.

Doesn't really sound absurd that Snake could lose to Pit. If thats what happens in practice. Top tier with very defined weaknesses can still lose to or go even with mid and even low tiers that exploit them well. Some say Yoshi beats Wario, but is Yoshi better than Sonic?

Gotta look at the big picture and results say Sonic is looking alot better in that wide shot.

Just gonna say for Pit, I'm 100% sure he does better against Lucario than Sonic does.

Smilies





[More]

it bothers me that the US doesn't have a high level pit player. we've got a high player for everything else except for who? zelda?

Zelda has scarylb59 aka ed. And Darkmusician/Riot.

Coney went / that tournament.



Shut up...

Maybe we just don't have one that makes Pit look as good as his "matchups" say.

Also, I already went over how Lucario doesn't really matter as much. According to the BBR, you might as well pick Ganondorf to fight Lucario, so doing better than Sonic in that matchup makes your character.....above hyrule tier?

...that's just dumb. Your right. So why is fox still not high tier when he only loses to super uncommon mu and mu that falco loses nearly as hard as well yet is 4th best.

I actually think mid-tier is too hmmm hard to really say easily who is better than who. I can only compare by saying i think x is around y in terms of viability. Pit is viable. But with nearly all even mu he's pretty much a test of how well you learn how to use what tools he gives you.

 

[Coney]

earth beat coney at apex 2010. luckay recently outplaced coney although i do not know if they played so i can't say if the MU has happened recently.

we placed the same? we both placed 5th...

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

not in placing, in your match. for some reason this is the make believe MU thread atm

 

[Ralph Cecil]

lol Sorry Kuro I wasn't talking about you saying it wasn't even. I was talking about a post or two before me mentioning Pit beats Snake. =D

Edit: I don't actually remember when that __X__ M2K thing happened actually I just remember seeing something about it on AiB lol.

Also I didn't know about Koolaid vs them I was just guessing since Fatal, & Bizkit are good players lol.

 

[Linkshot]

My only experience with Pit is when I played him back in '09. I took Zef's MK to Rainbow Cruise, last hit, but lost due to a mispredict.
For Snake, I could consistently snipe grenades, and there's not much he can do when recovering unless he goes really high...but then you just rack up damage with arrows.

Wish I could give more relevant input, but I'm pretty much solely Lucario now. Next tourney, I'll play some friendlies as Pit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you use japanese results use them right. Earth did not take "multiple" sets off Brood, Masashi took one at best and I don't know at what tourney he was supposed to have played Nietono, let alone beaten him.

 

[Tesh]

Kuro, I don't know what Diddies you have in florida, but some mid level pit vs some mid level diddy doesn't represent top level play? You would just as easily try to dismiss it if you didn't think it supported your case. And the fact that you didn't mention names probably just means you lost and you have no proof that Pit does well.

By Maharba's own account, you Pits KNOW NOTHING ABOUT those matchups because they don't ever happen. So how about you guys stop spewing theory backed by the experience of mid level vs mid level?

I see you have adopted the "Marth defense". "We have so many even matchups that our character just looks booty for no reason". Awesome how other mid tiers have better players flocking to worse matchups and outdoing Pit.

Results>Theory. Sonic has results and Pit has theory. Sonic> Pit. As metaknight would say
Come back when you can put up a fight okay Kuro.

 

[Linkshot]

As metaknight would say
Come back when you can put up a fight okay Kuro.

Can't argue with that. Meta Knight is usually right.
"Victory is my destiny"

 

[Kuro~]

Kuro, I don't know what Diddies you have in florida, but some mid level pit vs some mid level diddy doesn't represent top level play? You would just as easily try to dismiss it if you didn't think it supported your case. And the fact that you didn't mention names probably just means you lost and you have no proof that Pit does well.

By Maharba's own account, you Pits KNOW NOTHING ABOUT those matchups because they don't ever happen. So how about you guys stop spewing theory backed by the experience of mid level vs mid level?

I see you have adopted the "Marth defense". "We have so many even matchups that our character just looks booty for no reason". Awesome how other mid tiers have better players flocking to worse matchups and outdoing Pit.

Results>Theory. Sonic has results and Pit has theory. Sonic> Pit. As metaknight would say
Come back when you can put up a fight okay Kuro.

Dfear?Mampam?GDX?

Uh ik plenty about wario, marth, snake, IC, diddy, mk, falco, and dedede. And it def. isn't theory.

Arguably less against olimar(due to no RB/logic level olimar in Fl. All i have is Mid level olimars.), zss(cuz i've only played riddle w/snake b4 i used pit), lucario(at least against the likes of a "true" lucario main like trela. Da bess i have is hrnut.), R.O.B., Fox, GaW, Kirby, toonlink, and sonic.

Everyone else i can cite legitimate exp in or pick another pit out.

 

[Coney]

not in placing, in your match. for some reason this is the make believe MU thread atm

we didn't play that tournament. we played a few weeks ago and i won, that particular tourney we just both got 5th and didn't meet each other in bracket

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

for real?! it was a DDD in the pit ddd discussion MU that told us you guys played and he won at apex 2010.

especially from the opposing side

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dfear?Mampam?GDX?

Uh ik plenty about wario, marth, snake, IC, diddy, mk, falco, and dedede. And it def. isn't theory.

I can vouch for this. At least for the kinda talent that Florida possesses, anyway.

Still, though. Tesh has a point. Sonic has the results; Espy and quite a few others put in work. Pit simply doesn't have those same results.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Coney]

for real?! it was a DDD in the pit ddd discussion MU that told us you guys played and he won at apex 2010.

especially from the opposing side

wait i'm confused

earth and i DID play at apex 2010--he won.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwsUWpZKfIg

luckay and i did not play this past weekend and we placed the same. we played at a recent tourney and i won the set.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

okay, this is twice that that happened. i was referring to when earth beat you and said i was unsure about the tournament luckay went too. so thx for clearing up again the recent tournament and for confusing me twice with the same tournaments involved.

 

[Steam]

Kuro, I don't know what Diddies you have in florida, but some mid level pit vs some mid level diddy doesn't represent top level play? You would just as easily try to dismiss it if you didn't think it supported your case. And the fact that you didn't mention names probably just means you lost and you have no proof that Pit does well.

By Maharba's own account, you Pits KNOW NOTHING ABOUT those matchups because they don't ever happen. So how about you guys stop spewing theory backed by the experience of mid level vs mid level?

I see you have adopted the "Marth defense". "We have so many even matchups that our character just looks booty for no reason". Awesome how other mid tiers have better players flocking to worse matchups and outdoing Pit.

Results>Theory. Sonic has results and Pit has theory. Sonic> Pit. As metaknight would say
Come back when you can put up a fight okay Kuro.

this post is great.

@kuro- no Lucarios in florida at all XD

 

[Kuro~]

this post is great.

@kuro- no Lucarios in florida at all XD

Ya but hrnut could def. be up there . Yall got no idea.

I mean...i guess there's snipa but he's not close to trela/junebug.

I wish we had actual lucario "mains" though. I want to team w/one

 

[Steam]

all the lucario mains are junebug or in the midwest/southwest/west.

 

[Linkshot]

Or don't have the money to travel *ahem*

 

[optimuskirby]

tier

Introduction
------------------------------------------------------

Here is the Brawl Back Room's sixth release of its tier list. Unlike the past six month release schedule, this list has come [just over] nine months since version five; we feel that the game has reached a certain level of maturity that does not require as frequent updates - this period of time may be lengthened for subsequent releases.
Also unlike our last release, the BBR has 'split' from rule set creation - and with the unity rule set becoming a growing standard voters were requested to take the unity rule set into account. However, as always, votes placed were based on their own opinion.

Character specific comments will be added within the next few days

BBR Match Up Chart | BBR RC Unity Ruleset

Ver.6
------------------------------------------------------

God
S: (±0)

Top
A: (+1) (-1) (±0)
B: (+1) (-1) (±0) (±0) (±0)

High
C: (+2) (-1) (+1) (-2) (±0)

Middle
D: (+1) (+6) (+2)
E: (+2) (-4) (-3) (-3) (+2)
F: (+2) (-1) (-4) (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1)

Low
G: (±0) (±0) (±0) (+1) (-1)
Hyrule++: (+1) (-1) (±0): (±0)​

Condensed Version:
S: Meta Knight
A: Diddy Kong, Snake, Falco
B: Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu
C: Lucario, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link
D: Fox, Wolf, Peach
E: Donkey Kong, Kirby, R.O.B., Pit, Sonic
F: Ike, Sheik/Zelda, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi, Pokémon Trainer
G: Lucas, Mario, Bowser, Samus, Captain Falcon
H: Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf

Low tier tournaments have lost Yoshi. Middle tier tournaments have lost Toon Link

Previous Tier Lists
v1 (September 1, 2008)
v2 (January 1, 2009)
v3 (June 5, 2009)
v4 (February 26, 2010)
v5 (September 25, 2010)

Individual Character Movement
------------------------------------------------------


Voting Procedure & Data
-----------------------------------

Stage one consisted of voting characters in order within three sections (high [1-13], middle [1-15] and low [1-10]). Stage two took the characters which closely bordered High/Middle and Middle/Low and again were voted for in order.

Stage 1

Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Meta Knight	1	1	1	0	1	1
Diddy Kong	2.25	2	2	0.433	2	3
Snake		3.19	3	3	1.025	2	6
Falco		4.07	4	4	0.752	2	7
Marth		5.80	5	6	1.736	3	10
Wario		6.55	6	6	1.425	3	10
Ice Climbers	7.08	7	7	1.526	5	10
Captain Olimar	7.48	8	8	1.017	5	9
Pikachu		7.66	9	8	1.538	3	10
King Dedede	10.78	10	10.5	1.097	8	13
Lucario		10.94	10,11	11	0.914	9	13
Zero Suit Samus	11.92	12,13	12	0.979	9	13
Mr.Game & Watch	12.23	13	13	0.963	10	13
						
						
Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Toon Link	14.78	14	14	1.410	14	21
Fox		15.64	15	15	1.528	14	20
Wolf		17.60	16	17	2.820	14	25
Peach		17.73	16	17	1.875	15	23
Donkey Kong	18.94	18	19	2.090	15	26
Kirby		19.26	21	19	2.279	15	23
R.O.B.		19.32	20	19	3.145	15	28
Pit		19.91	20	20	2.316	15	25
Sonic		20.75	18,22	21	2.301	17	24
Ike		23.05	23	23	1.597	18	27
Luigi		24.07	24	23	1.781	20	28
Sheik / Zelda	24.37	25	25	2.100	18	27
Sheik		26.00	26	26	1.658	19	28
Ness		26.10	27	26	1.175	23	28
Pokémon Trainer	27.42	28	28	1.251	22	28
						
						
Character	Avg	Mode	Median	Std Dev	Min	Max
Yoshi		29.05	29	29	0.293	29	31
Lucas		30.41	30	30	0.921	29	35
Mario		31.19	31	31	1.108	30	36
Bowser		32.69	32	32	1.602	30	37
Samus		33.37	33	33	1.494	31	38
Captain Falcon	33.92	34	34	1.207	32	37
Link		35.30	35	35	1.534	31	38
Jigglypuff	35.66	36	36	1.479	32	38
Zelda		35.73	37	36	1.797	30	38
Ganondorf	37.64	38	38	0.874	34	38

Stage 2

Character	Average
Lucario		1.93
King Dedede	1.96
Zero Suit Samus	2.89
Mr.Game & Watch	4.36
Toon Link	4.59
Fox		5.88
Wolf		6.77
Peach		7.63
	
Character	Average
Ike		1.41
Sheik/Zelda	3.02
Luigi		3.18
Sheik		4.27
Ness		4.64
Yoshi		5.32
Pokémon Trainer	6.66
Lucas		7.66
Mario		8.84

Character Movement Explained
------------------------------------------------------

14. Toon Link ±0 (Middle to High)


16. Wolf +6


18. Donkey Kong +2


Come back [for more] later =)

DISCUSS AWAY!​

mets knight is god

 

[optimuskirby]

META KNIGHT IS GOD!!!!!
especially when gold and white :D

 

[Chuee]

META KNIGHT IS GOD!!!!!
especially when gold and white :D

thanks for quoting the ENTIRE first post just to say mk is good...............................

 

[Luigi player]

thanks for quoting the ENTIRE first post just to say mk is good...............................

He didn't say he is "good". He said he is "god".

 

[Fuujin]

Soooooooo can we talk about how Lucas should definitely for sure be mid tier.