Official BBR Tier List v6

[Tesh]

Characters with poor killing ability generally feel Lucario ***** them because he goes super saiyan every stock.

 

[Steam]

Lucario is too bad a character to +3 anybody outside of bottom tier imo. I don't think his character design allows for such dominance against any characters except Falcon and Ganondorf.

it does against characters who really can't kill him and can't get around his disjoints well.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And don't these characters just all happen to be bottom tier as well?

 

[Tesh]

the last 2 maybe not, since they stand an okay chance of gimping him before 150

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi has decent gimp potential on Lucario as well.

 

[Luigi player]

the last 2 maybe not, since they stand an okay chance of gimping him before 150

Lucario doesn't +3 any of these lmao.

 

[Espy Rose]

He +3'd Sonic for some time.
@Cod: Yeah, Sonic's hardest match ups are becoming much more tolerable. Snake, Wario, Lucario, and Falco aren't as difficult as they used to be.
Like, the only exception to this is, surprise surprise, Meta Knight.

 

[Delta-cod]

I have no problem believing that at all. I feel like his MUs would probably become better over time for a similar reason that I believe Yoshi's MUs have been getting better: players are figuring out how to use their mobility options better.

I feel like Sonic and Yoshi have such great mobility that outside of MK, it's entirely possible to find a way to abuse SOME aspect of a MU to make it more tolerable. As the players of the two get better, they figure these things out, and the MUs just get better.

 

[Orion*]

And don't these characters just all happen to be bottom tier as well?

LMAO

good **** ghebbycakes

He +3'd Sonic for some time.
@Cod: Yeah, Sonic's hardest match ups are becoming much more tolerable. Snake, Wario, Lucario, and Falco aren't as difficult as they used to be.
Like, the only exception to this is, surprise surprise, Meta Knight.

Yes.

Sonic's matchup with metaknight definitely did not improve at all

 

[-LzR-]

What is wrong ppl. Argue about useless characters moar! I want to lurk.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How is Sonic vs Snake not horrible for Sonic? =/

 

[Life]

Not really sure, I think it has something to do with our ridiculous run speed, in the time it takes Snake to throw a nade we can be more or less in his face. Then again, looking at the way Sonics play the matchup, that can't be quite right... the main issue is that he kills us much earlier, but if we get him offstage we can usually catch him again coming down, but so can almost everyone else...

Looks like a -1 to me.

 

[Exceladon City]

How is Sonic vs Snake not horrible for Sonic? =/

I dunno. He's never been THAT hard.

 

[Steam]

And don't these characters just all happen to be bottom tier as well?

not unless bottom tier extends up to like sonic.

 

[Exceladon City]

not unless bottom tier extends up to like sonic.

Well considering that you're talking to GHEB of all people. Yes, bottom tier goes all the way up to Sonic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well I just find it strange how in general many players of characters claim "Welp Snake isn't *that* bad for us but ugh MK" ... and then I look at who and how many MKs lose [and keep losing] to Sonic and I see that there's a huge gap between what's actually happening [the match-up turning out to be between -1 and -2] and the claim that MK wrecks Sonic -3. If it were only a certain group of MK players losing to Sonic or a number of MK players started "overcoming" the match-up for good I could see where you're coming from but atm it seems more like propaganda than anything. I'm not buying that MK vs Sonic is +3 for MK.

The list of MK players that lost to Sonic [some of them more than once] decimates the list of Snake players that lost to Sonic. The number of MK players that generally don't lose to Sonic is probably comparable to the number of Snake players that generally don't lose to Sonic, despite how many more people play MK.

InCom, I find your assertion on the match-up extremely generic. If you replace "running speed" with "float" then your argument could also be made about Peach vs Snake but that match-up is still +3 for Snake. A lot of characters can "be in his face" in the same way Sonic does - probably not very well at all. I wonder what options Sonic has between the range of Snake's tilt and the grenade he just drops on the ground and rolls away from [note how you pre-assume that Snake throws grenades as if it was needed against Sonic].

Empricial evidence doesn't support the claim that Sonic vs MK is -3. The Snake match-up on the other hand seems to be based on theory a lot.

Oh god, you're so smart and funny, Oreo. Teach me your ways so I can be like you <333
Sonic vs Lucario is probably not -3.

 

[Steam]

gheb you have to look at all the times sonics have lost to MK too you know... which is quite a lot... June > M2K and I heard Trela > Dojo again but that doesn't change the fact that the MK-Lucario matchup is -2 or worse.

I don't even know if lucario +3's sonic. I don't play it enough to know. I just know that I shouldn't be losing that matchup.

 

[Meru.]

If you replace "running speed" with "float" then your argument could also be made about Peach vs Snake but that match-up is still +3 for Snake.

Holy **** it's not that bad @_@. Snake won't ever be worse than -2. The only agreeable -3 for Peach is MK (altough I do not agree with that myself).

 

[Life]

I'm not exactly the best person to ask, Gheb. Maybe go find some vids?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

gheb you have to look at all the times sonics have lost to MK too you know... which is quite a lot... June > M2K and I heard Trela > Dojo again but that doesn't change the fact that the MK-Lucario matchup is -2 or worse.

-2 =/= -3

And yet again, I'm not convinced by you just naming two recent results with Lucario as winner. Sonic still has a larger quantity of high-quality wins vs MK over a longer period of time than Lucario who is still arguably "only" -2 against MK. If you take results at face value [and what else you wanna take at face value other than empirical evidence?] then there seems to be a double-standard between MK vs Sonic and MK vs Lucario

I don't even know if lucario +3's sonic. I don't play it enough to know. I just know that I shouldn't be losing that matchup.

Well I'm not insinuating that you make any false claims in this case. I'm just pointing out that I don't believe that Lucario has +3 match-ups outside of bottom tiers.

Holy **** it's not that bad @_@. Snake won't ever be worse than -2.

It's pretty drastic though. Like when did a good Snake lose to Peach for the last time - or like, ever? <_<

 

[Exceladon City]

Well I just find it strange how in general many players of characters claim "Welp Snake isn't *that* bad for us but ugh MK" ... and then I look at who and how many MKs lose [and keep losing] to Sonic and I see that there's a huge gap between what's actually happening [the match-up turning out to be between -1 and -2] and the claim that MK wrecks Sonic -3. If it were only a certain group of MK players losing to Sonic or a number of MK players started "overcoming" the match-up for good I could see where you're coming from but atm it seems more like propaganda than anything. I'm not buying that MK vs Sonic is +3 for MK.

The list of MK players that lost to Sonic [some of them more than once] decimates the list of Snake players that lost to Sonic. The number of MK players that generally don't lose to Sonic is probably comparable to the number of Snake players that generally don't lose to Sonic, despite how many more people play MK.

InCom, I find your assertion on the match-up extremely generic. If you replace "running speed" with "float" then your argument could also be made about Peach vs Snake but that match-up is still +3 for Snake. A lot of characters can "be in his face" in the same way Sonic does - probably not very well at all. I wonder what options Sonic has between the range of Snake's tilt and the grenade he just drops on the ground and rolls away from [note how you pre-assume that Snake throws grenades as if it was needed against Sonic].

Empricial evidence doesn't support the claim that Sonic vs MK is -3. The Snake match-up on the other hand seems to be based on theory a lot.

Oh god, you're so smart and funny, Oreo. Teach me your ways so I can be like you <333
Sonic vs Lucario is probably not -3.

We never said MK was -3. He's a -2. He hasn't changed from a -2. Most likely never will.

Gheb, you can't be me. You can only dream of it. HEARTS

 

[Steam]

I actually think MK has a +3 on lucario... lol. no one will ever know what happened to M2K vs. june... but anti only dropped game 1 because he was playing like a total scrub... then he stopped and just kinda ***** june.

but yeah lucario's character design keeps him from really ****** anyone or getting ***** by anyone. Aura sometimes changes this like with sonic, or gets him ***** like with snake. otherwise he's just kinda a balanced character.

and lolpeach. when did a good anyone lose to peach

 

[-Jumpman-]

I actually think MK has a +3 on lucario... lol. no one will ever know what happened to M2K vs. june... but anti only dropped game 1 because he was playing like a total scrub... then he stopped and just kinda ***** june.

but yeah lucario's character design keeps him from really ****** anyone or getting ***** by anyone. Aura sometimes changes this like with sonic, or gets him ***** like with snake. otherwise he's just kinda a balanced character.

and lolpeach. when did a good anyone lose to peach

What part of its design makes it impossible to **** anyone?

 

[Steam]

mainly lack of any sort of dominant trait... he's not great at anything but not terrible at anything either.

he also doesn't have any strong matchup swinging things like CGs and they rarely work on him due to his physics.

 

[Linkshot]

What part of its design makes it impossible to **** anyone?

He only dominates if he started getting dominated first.

 

[kingdededestroy]

ohh common

ok i pesonaly beleive the king should be a top tier AND NOW HES BEEN KNOKED DOWN ONE SLOT. i cant beleive it, i mean hes not given enough credit so at least let him stay were he was. tell me, tell me what he is lacking im trying to be calm here im a peacefull person but realy

 

[-LzR-]

I agree. King Harkinian for toptier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Honestly Lucario doesn't **** anyone hard. Everyone is in the mid area.

 

[DeLux]

Spoiler

un

Official Smash Lab Release:

Lucario is super broken

Spoiler

imo

 

[Espy Rose]

Lucario's an *******.
But that's all he is.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Spoiler

un

Official Smash Lab Release:

Lucario is super broken

Spoiler

imo

reported for leaking

 

[Conviction]

You can report the director?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

im just typing mjg and biglou to see what their reaction is on namesearch because im bored.

 

[Conviction]

You know, I could always text him

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

With Lucario, I do feel like he doesn't truely **** any many if any characters.

Sonic, I'm awful at that MU. I have no clue why people told me to just be Lucario and I would win, and I didn't think it was that simple. Still poor decision on my part I agreed since people were saying it was a -3 whom had more experience in the MU. I lost to Da K.I.D. at MLG Columbus and thought it wasn't that bad but agreed.

Yoshi, I;m not sure. Same with Sonic I haven't played it a lot.

If Espy said it wasn't a -3, I'd probably just agree like I did before. I have no clue how to do the MU in all honesty, or at least to the levels Trela does.

Lucario does not **** anyone really important outside of maybe debateably Pikachu, which is only a +2 at best.

I don't think MK has a +3 on him, unless you only play him on Norfair or something like that. Trela with Dojo and Junebug with M2K isn't the only time the character had beaten MK. I want results to prove that Sonic does before I woudl suggest Lucario loses to those kinds of levels.

Either way, I do think he is high tier, just because he sits even with most of the cast and has small advantages with most below him, outside of D3 and Fox who I think beat Lucario.

 

[Steam]

to beat sonic with lucario... you get a lead and play like an *******... be really stingy and don't let him land his "kill moves". if you're losing you still have plenty of tools to approach sonic. lucario approaching doesn't have it nearly as bad.

I am so bad at the pikachu matchup lol... and I don't know why.

I'm know MK has a +3 if you discard the fact that the lucario will know the matchup much better... if MK knew every little detail about lucario like the lucario user will against MK... MK would never lose... I mean look at how badly Anti played the matchup against june game 1... and he still probably would have gotten it to last stock had he not SD'd >_>

 

[Espy Rose]

to beat sonic with lucario... you get a lead and play like an *******... be really stingy and don't let him land his "kill moves". if you're losing you still have plenty of tools to approach sonic. lucario approaching doesn't have it nearly as bad.

Funny enough, if you swap "Sonic" and "Lucario" in this post, everything still remains true.

 

[Steam]

only difference is that you could remove the quotation marks around kill moves. and you couldn't really switch the last sentence >.>

 

[Espy Rose]

Lucario can't kill Sonic any better really, and you totally could switch the last sentence.
SideB crushes you.

 

[Steam]

then it should be like a +1 matchup at absolute worst... if not sonic's favor because of vastly superior mobility :I

but it's not because lucario can use move X and stuff sonic pretty well. while sonic doesn't have a move X